http://dbd.game/killswitch
I can’t believe survivors are ok with being treated like this
Comments
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You are still ignoring that survivors have do much more than gens. Doing gens is one of the many things survivors have to do and they have to react/adjust to everything the killer is doing. They have to loop, hide from the killer, time unhooks smartly and so many more things while doing gens. The killer only has to hook and down survivors which is less than what the survivors have to do. Your scenario only applies to killers that are afk, because that‘s the only case where you are doing nothing than gens.
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No, I'm not ignoring that.
At what point is the correct play for a Killer to just stand still and hold M1 for 90 seconds?
Because the Killer has to think about which gens have the most progress, how much progress they have, keep track of everyone's hook states and health states, remember the last known location of each Survivor, keep track of the likely current locations of every Survivor, recognize, create and keep track of dead zones on the map; decide whether or not to take a chase, decide whether to hook or slug, and decide how they're going to play around their hooked survivors. All while continually patrolling gens, hunting for survivors, and chasing them.
You can never just stop moving and hold a button at your objective as Killer unless you want to throw the game.
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Gens are boring and don‘t have much depth. I agree with that, but you are still ignoring that gens aren‘t the main thing of survivor gameplay. Sure you need them to win, but they only make up around 30% of the survivors actions. The rest is looping healing, unhooking, hiding and other things. I really don‘t get why you can‘t see that. They have to do more than gens.
I can also just say, all killers have to do is kill a survivor, that isn’t hard as well, because the game favors killer and that is a fact. I win most of my matches relatively easy to a point that killer becomes boring.
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I've always played chill regardless of the role, but a key difference between the two is that I'm only playing for myself as killer. I know how to play my favourite killers, and i know when to drop chase, and i know how to apply map pressure and keep survivors busy. This is not hard for me because I do it every single game, over and over and over. I get games against difficult opponents but I accept that the better player will win, and sometimes it's not me. As survivor, i also never cared if I'd win or lose, but i did recognise that i was part of a team. It wasn't just about me.
Regardless, the discussion was about which role is harder in general and my previous response still stands for why I think survivor is the harder role to learn in this game. There is simply more to learn and every game is different to the last.
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All My friends recently quit because of the survivor experience isn't fun anymore I can't express enough how disappointed I am that the game hasn't got any better for survivor as I used to love playing games with friends making joke builds and the loud screaming of laughter and cheer during chase it's saddening how now the last time we hopped on was a killer deciding to tunnel out our friend waiting out the 10 second timer and downing him again
I'm losing even more hope now with solo queue as its quite common now with the nerfing of a lot of anti tunnel perks to survive being tunneled I could loop for as long as I can but in the end the chase will end eventually with my death
recently I've been now only playing killer with my legion builds its much more fun now but saddening for the receiving end I hope Bhvr makes a solution so that both sides can be happy7 -
I was absolutely not waiting for killer queues for that long across most of the weekend. There was a mix of killer and survivor bonus along with no bonus. The late evenings definitely are always faster for killers though due to the increase in SWFs.
Also this entire thread is just mostly 5 pages of utterly worthless bickering over nonsense just like every worthless bias thread that gets posted over these topics. The mods really should start just deleting them as spam and for inciting arguments. There is never any constructive discussion, its nothing but bait threads by angry people.
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Isn't that what this is, saying people who aren't happy with how things are have no worthwhile opinion?
All you have to do is make some friends and ask them if they want to play dbd, most casual players will tell you outright no.4 -
Also this entire thread is just mostly 5 pages of utterly worthless bickering over nonsense just like every worthless bias thread that gets posted over these topics.I find it funny that a huge portion of it might be just having different uses of the word 'easy' as the origin point.
The mods really should start just deleting them as spam and for inciting arguments.I'm really surprised this one is still going.
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I appreciate the clarification, and I’m sorry for the misrepresentation, it was unintentional. I think this circles back to what I asked earlier about how you may view disagreement.
You’ve said escape rates are flawed, and high level performance is flawed. I understand that’s your opinion, so you have every right to argue that, but then what would count as a fair argument for the other side?
On the slot machine analogy, I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. Slot machines are entirely RNGbased, no matter how much you practice, you cannot change the outcome. Survivor by contrast, has many skill dependent factors: looping, resource management, decision making, teamwork, and map, perk, killer knowledge. Even “doing gens” isn’t just holding M1. Which gens you work, how you respond to killer pressure, when you reset vs. push the objective, and how you adapt to perks like Pain Res or Pop are all skill expressions.
I’d agree the physical act of holding M1 isn’t difficult, in the same way that putting a survivor on a hook isn’t physically difficult. But as with hooks, it’s the choices around which gen or which hook, and how those choices impact the match, that reflect skill. It’s closer to chess, I feel. moving a piece itself is easy, there’s no skill involved in literally picking it up, but which piece and which move you choose determines the depth of play. And that is skill.
On difficulty, I think escape and kill rates are a fair metric, because difficulty is generally tied to how hard success is to achieve. BHVR has openly said they want killer to be the “power role” with a higher success rate than survivor. By definition, if killers are expected to succeed more often, then it needs be harder for survivors to succeed. I typically don’t like to describe one role as “harder,” because both roles are hard in different ways, but I will say that it is harder to achieve success in one role than the other, which is still a measure of difficulty.
High MMR adds another layer. I 100% believe it shouldn’t be the only metric people care about or used as a benchmark of balance, since it represents a small percentage of players, but it is useful for showing the ceiling of what’s possible when both roles are played optimally. At this level, randomness is minimized. both sides know maps, perks, and resource management inside and out. If killer still consistently secures more success even when survivor is playing just as optimally, that suggests survivor simply cannot achieve equal results under the best conditions. That’s a valid indicator of relative difficulty.
It’s like if two runners have the same lung capacity, training, and skill, but one starts the race three meters behind the other. Even though they’re equally skilled, the runner starting behind has to work harder to achieve the same result. That structural disadvantage is what makes their path to success more difficult. And DBD has that structural disadvantage for survivor players in order to maintain killer in the power role (a structural decision I personally agree with).
Taken together, population wide escape/kill rates show the baseline challenge, while highMMR outcomes show the ceiling of challenge. Both are necessary for a complete picture, and dismissing either or only looking at one, makes it very hard to measure difficulty in any objective way.And so I ask, if we’re not able to rely on statistical data of the highest level to gauge difficulty, nor the average across thousands of matches in all MMR, and we obviously can’t rely on personal opinions or personal experiences, then how can we measure difficulty for either role?
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If you're asking me what I would consider to be a correct and flawless argument that Survivor is the harder role, that's entirely hypothetical since I don't believe Survivor is the harder role. If I believed there were a correct and flawless argument in favor of Survivor being the harder role, I would be arguing that Survivor is the harder role.
Hooking is a pretty negligible part of playing Killer, especially compared to doing gens. In a 12-hook game, the Killer will spend, at most, 192 seconds carrying Survivors to hooks. Usually far less because it usually doesn't take the entire wiggle timer for the Killer to reach the hook. Whereas a Survivor can easily spend 270 seconds or more just doing gens in a single game. Not to mention healing and opening exit gates, which is similarly monotonous.
And I disagree; anything in the game which requires you to move will almost certainly be more skillful than something that doesn't. Being able to navigate a map and its terrain efficiently and effectively is a big part of what separates decent players from great ones, not to mention being able to do so while keeping an eye out for the opposing team and keeping track of all the other pertinent information for your role.
And if we're gonna be talking about high MMR, there's an elephant in the room- 4 man SWFs. Their 48.2% escape rate is way out of line with BHVR's target of 40%. And imagine how high it might be if you factored out high-tier Killers.
As for how to measure a role's difficulty, well, why do we consider Legion, Wraith and Bubba to be easy Killers? There's no statistics that show this; at best, you can make inferences from their kill rates. But nonetheless, it is generally accepted that these Killers are easy to play. Why?
Well, generally speaking, it comes down to ease of mechanics. What all of those Killers have in common are powers that are easy to learn, easy to understand and not very difficult to master. With Legion, you just press M2, vault over anything the Survivor puts in your way, and run them down. With Wraith, you cloak when you're out of chase and decloak while in chase. With Bubba, you press M2 when the Survivor is close enough and can't vault a window in time. There's a bit more nuance to all those powers, of course, but not much. The challenge of playing them at high levels mostly comes from trying to squeeze value out of such an inherently basic and limited kit.
Survivor's tools, for the most part, are similarly basic and barebones. There's basic movement, vaulting, pallets, doing gens, healing… and that's about it. Survivor's kit is almost akin to an M1 Killer with no power in terms of its simplicity.
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Thanks for going into more depth. I think this comes back to definitions, because it seems like we’re working with different understandings of what “difficulty” means. I think if we’re both on the same page with that, it will help us figure out how to move forward. From your points in our discussion, it feels like you’re defining difficulty almost entirely in terms of mechanical complexity, like how many buttons are pressed, how often you move, how much action per second is required.
If that’s your definition, then yes, I can agree that the core of survivor mechanics are simple. But then doesn’t that apply to many killers as well? And even so, do you feel that mechanically simple is all that dictates skill or difficulty? Some killers like Nurse are less mechanically complex than others. Blinking and swinging involves fewer “button presses” than, say, Vecna managing spell rotation, yet Nurse is widely considered the strongest and one of the hardest to play well. Why? Because her difficulty doesn’t come from the physical act of pressing buttons, but from knowledge, precision, and timing of when to press those buttons. Just like looping. Nurse doesn’t even have to worry about walls to move around, or crossing pallets, or windows, but just because she requires less mechanical input does not mean she is not difficult to learn, or difficult to be good at.
That’s why I don’t agree that mechanical inputs alone can define difficulty. Otherwise we’d be saying Nurse is easy because she has fewer buttons to press, or that carpentry is easy because hammering a nail is mechanically simple, or that chess is easy because moving a pawn is mechanically simple. In all those cases, the real difficulty comes from what surrounds those simple mechanics, knowledge, judgment, and application. And I feel it’s disingenuous to disregard those things in regards to survivor gameplay and the impact it has in difficulty.
So I guess the question I’d bring back to you is: if mechanical inputs alone define difficulty, then why isn’t Nurse considered one of the easiest killers in the game? And if you agree she isn’t, then doesn’t that show that mechanical simplicity doesn’t necessarily equal low difficulty? What do you define difficulty as?
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I'd argue that Nurse actually is pretty easy- what makes her "difficult" is that her power is so far removed from how the other Killers play that it's almost like playing a different role entirely. So you're essentially relearning the role from scratch. She also lacks the ability to use M1 as a crutch, so you will invariably lose your first several games with her.
Like, if you were to take one new player and have them start by learning Nurse, and take another new player and have them start by playing the usual noob-friendly Killers (Doctor, Wraith), I think they'd master their respective Killers at roughly the same rate.
Nurse's chase mechanics are arguably less complex than even a powerless M1 Killer. Pallets? Windows? Walls? Looping? All next to useless against Nurse. Pretty much the only thing she has to worry about is tracking Survivors, judging Blink distances and predicting Survivor movements.
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Gens are the key thing thats presuring the killer and makes survivors win, more gens you have and less hooks killer have (no death hooks) your chance of winning the match and having draw (two escapes) as worst scenario if your teammates doesnt do any big bad missplay that helps killer to get upper hand and preasure, looping is giving your teammates time to do gens and more they have the more gen progress and gens they should finish only third thing that takes survivor most time with looping and gens is their mobility but they are 4 and healing is very easy in 90% of matches because now there are popular perks like orelas do no harm, we will make it or the one that gives you 70% of heal when you aare unhooked and you can be healed in 4 and even less seconds.
Survivor role is teamplay (team work makes dream work, thats why swf is so good they can make teamplay way more easier and effective compare to soloq) and kilers is managing 4 survivors and gens and fighting against time more than survivors (survivors can fight against time too but if the killer gets upper hand and no gens are being done or endgame collapse). The game doesnt favor one side buth both all is influenced by big rng factors like survivors and killers skill and experience,map plays huge part for both side and for some killers more than for survivor role, perks, addons you can go against someone who is new with huntress and you will destroy him or you can get god nurse and be destroyed in few minutes so game doesnt favor only one side and its just lame to call it like that. Killer role is easier on lower mmr with less experienced players and the higher mmr the survivors are better and stronger and then there is swf clashing against s-tiers and high a-tiers at the top of the mmr chain and dont forget this game is made to be 50-60% killrate more the 60% which is like two kills with few hooks on average, all the decisioning factors are mostly decided in lobby but some changes can happen.
Hate it and down this post as much as you like but these are some facts, killer is supposed to be power role and you arent supposed to 1v1 the killer or any survivor if this happens you are playing against weaker opponent like back in the past before mmr where they were called "babby killers" by comunity and favorite part for content creators showing how good they are with 1k plus hours against 100 hour wraith with blue eyes, some do it even today for shorts.
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She just crates her own game and counterplay because she cant be played as other killers (exept one meme addon that can make you m1 for 1 minute bad its just meme addon) and she is 100% dependent on her blinks thats why people were happy back then when they met newer player who had few games with nurse and couldnt blink just played like m1 that was eazy escape, others killer are different too like hag and most 110% speed killers are realible on theirs powers more that some m1 killers on loops like slinger or huntress.
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What did you want to discuss with me now? I don‘t exactly get what your reason for the reply is.
Hate it and down this post as much as you like but these are some facts, killer is supposed to be power role
I agree that killer has to be the power role but it just is too much right now. Behavior should balance for 40-45% escape rate and 55-60% kill rate instead of aiming for a 60-65% kill rate for killers, that be much fairer. The current kill rate goal is too high, especially with some killers having a 69% kill rate, which means these killers win almost every game.
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Mechanicly some killers are hardest with mastering their powers but oveall survivor is hard and on average harder because you are relaying on other players which are bigger factors you cant influence and are out of your control exept top mmr survivors especialy in swf thats when this factor is more under control and thats why are very good survivor teams especialy swf called "seals teams" which are nightmare of every killer.
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It will be under control more when spreding hooks will be rewarded and survivors will get these antichanges especialy some balanced and good antitunnel, the it will drop I believe.
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I really hope so, because I‘m waiting for Sadako changes for 3 years already and this probably the only chance I have.
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I can tplay her her seconds version vas strong as hell but this one is still weak, shame they dont have her in road map.
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I want a update that makes her like her first version with some additional buffs. Maybe you have seen my post where I suggested buffs and an addon pas for her. My main complain isn‘t really strength, current Sadako just isn‘t fun. I like killers that are fun to play and a little challenge.
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Booo. Let those of us on the sidelines have our entertainment. 😭
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I think you have been in a echo chamber of your own if you think no one in this forum could be free of biases just because they are speaking of the survivor role
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Nurse ranks highly on tier lists, becuse the tier lists are assuming the killers are magically playing 100% perfectly. And if someone magically plays Nurse 100% perfectly, and perfectly predicts, aims, and times all her blinks, then all her chases will end super fast. The actual issue is reality doesn’t work like that, and there are so many opportunities to mess up while playing Nurse, that she very often doesn’t actually perform that well in reality.
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Well said. The people who downvoted you are the addicts you speak of, in denial.
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Since the map offering changes I dont boot up dbd anymore. I am not trying to make a stand or something, but the last time I played I got Hawkins 3 times in 1 hour of gaming. I actually like Hawkins, but the game is just not interesting or fun to me if played on a bunch of trash maps that aren't actually fun. I can't say whether or not removing map offerings was good, but it has severely increased the amount of bad games I play to get to the good games. Ultimately on a break right now because I just do not have fun playing most of the games.
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- Guys, don't trivialize "repairing generators." Obviously, the action is very easy, press M1 and go through the skill checks; maybe even an 8-year-old could do it. That said, when repairing generators, you have to use your head: which generator should I repair first? Do I heal myself or keep repairing generators? Do I stay at the generator even if the killer is nearby or do I run away? And many other things to consider. If it were really that easy to repair generators, survivors should have a very high win rate. Just look at the competitive players' point of view... survivors communicate with each other like an air traffic control tower. Why go through all this effort if all you have to do is press M1?🤣
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The absolute dramatics in this thread. I'm a 80-20 survivor main and honestly it isn't as bad as some of yall are making it out to be lol. It's so funny.
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I'll preface this and say that I would play killer and survivor somewhat evenly, maybe a slight preference towards survivors since killer generally felt a little easy (if you abused slugging, tunneling, or camping). I used to play survivor often with my friends. We rarely play anymore. On the rare occasions that we do, we might play a few matches and then quit whereas before, we'd probably spend many, many hours on a weekend night play. That just doesn't happen anymore. There's reasons for it.
I wish I could say I was exaggerating, but practically every match has a killer resorting to slugging, tunneling, or camping a hook. It's no longer enjoyable anymore at all. Now I usually play with three other friends where one or two of them are not as skilled. So chases just don't last long with them despite how they actively try to get better. Perks like DS, Off the Record, Unbreakable, etc. have either been nerfed too much that they're hardly a viable option anymore, or simply just have a one-time use which rarely seems worth bringing anymore. The times you do bring a perk or two that counters these "toxic strategies" of slugging, tunneling, or camping, you're having to sacrifice something, usually some sort of gen progression perk. Which then brings to a different issue.
You're often bound to lose without some sort of gen progression perk since the vast majority of the popular or stronger killers have incredible map control in the form of movement or dashes. Most games I'd play as a survivor would be met with usually Ghoul, Krasue (albeit new so understandable), Blight, Billy, Oni, Lich, and occasionally Dark Lord. All of these have super high mobility. There's been memes for a long while now how there's this dash meta or "dash slop" in the game lately. (When something's broken or a killer is weak, give them a dash. They now did it to Myers.). Older killers or killers that are weaker just aren't all that viable anymore and most of them have their power or a mechanic that's integrated to a better performing/stronger killer. We're just seeing a lack of creativity with new killer design, recycled abilities and/or mechanics, and often a "jack of all trades" rather than a master at a couple things and weaker at others.
Anyway, I feel like I've rambled on enough. These points, along with a few other (maybe less important ones) have made the survivor experience more and more suffering and simply unfun. So I echo the people that say they've dropped playing survivor nowadays. I pretty much only play killer now or not at all since survivor, in its current state, is just bordering on being absolutely awful.
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Admittedly, I have forgotten about this thread. Apologies!
In reply to your comment, I don't think I agree. I believe she is high on tier lists (not that tier lists are everything) because she's strong, not because she's actually really weak and only strong if you play without making mistakes. I would argue any killer would be strong if you play without making mistakes. The less mistakes you make the higher the reward, and that's not restricted to Nurse alone, in my opinion.4 -
Sorry, to be honest I forgot about this thread and to reply. Apologies! And if you no longer want to discuss this anymore due to how long it's been, I understand. I got a ping from another person who brought me back here and realized I never responded to your message so I wanted to apologize and offer a response, feel free to ignore or interact.
So, looking at my last message I was trying to figure out if you feel that mechanical difficulty should be the only thing that matters, so to speak, and if it's why you believe there is no skill in survivor most of the time, because of how many buttons you may press or how often you are physically moving your character. I brought Nurse as an example to show that just because she is not mechanically demanding by you requiring to press many buttons or even move around barriers etc. that it doesn't mean she is weak or that there is no skill to play her.
I guess I'm a little unclear about your stance here and how it relates back to our discussion. When you say she is easy, are you disagreeing with my point about how takes skill to play? Or when you say she is easy, are you agreeing that mechanically yes, her controls are relatively easy.4
