http://dbd.game/killswitch
Pixel Bush is right.
Comments
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There's not much they can do about that except making him harder enough to not be a balance issue in the skill level they balance for.
Though either way I disagree that blight (or other similar S tiers) are truly choking or bottlenecking dbd.
They arent even remotely as easy and accessible as killers like Krasue or Kaneki.
I can't help but notice that all these weird pallet changes and systems buffing survivors happened in a cascade right when these two showed up.
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The same logic applies to every S tier killer. A-B tiers should be the goal for killer balance and maps/perks could then be fairly balanced for both sides
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Yeah S-tier killers are literally poison to this games health
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I mean, you can do whatever you want with S-tier killers, but surely you shouldn't expect that SWF will be untouched after that.
High MMR survivors already escape 20% more than they should and S-tier literally the only answer to how absurdly broken survivors are on high level.-7 -
Based on what? 48% escape rate from 4 man high mmr teams = "absurdly broken"?
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Based literally on your screenshot. 40% is goal = 100% and 48% is 120%.
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They are the only killers capable of playing at a high level against SWFs.
And as always the question remains. Do you balance the game around average skill level players, or do you balance around the highest level players?
If you balance around the average skill players, take a look at every official stat ever released for blight and nurse, and they are always either BELOW the average, or right at the mark of what the devs are balancing for. Thus they are fine.
If you balance around the highest skill level players, then you must BY DEFINITION contend with the fact that at the highest levels there are like 4 MAYBE 5 viable killers. And it would be FAR easier to nerf survivors as a whole (or buff killers as a whole) and then nerf those 4-5 killers, then it would to buff the other 25+ killers.
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Losing more than half your matches = absurdly broken, got it.
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You are objectively wrong, S-tier killers literally are turning people away. ask any common horror fan their opinion, it's literallyt his game is trash
the only people still playing this game, who act like this game is a console, the only thing they can play.
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I am not objectively wrong. There is a reason that in comp level play they put up MASSIVE restrictions for survivors and put all the killers on the best maps for them. And why tournaments have to keep putting up all these point systems and stuff to make winning or losing less about kills/escapes. Because at its core, the game is not balanced at the highest levels.
But either way. Answer my question, do you balance around high skill players, or average skill players?
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I literally play dracula and Unknown and I never complain that survivors are OP
So explain to me why Nurse/blight/ghoul etc should exist? The answer is they shouldn't and if you play them, YOU are bad at the game-13 -
Great, an anecdote, glad y ou have a good time, can you answer my question or are you going to keep dodging it? I have already explained my posiiton. I think the game should be balanced around the highest skill players. Thus we need to be looking at the data from the top say, 1000 players. And see what the stats say. Then when we can see that, i can tell you whether they should exist in their current forms or not.
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Average, especially in a game like DBD where top level play isn't exactly…fun for most people, we will say.
If we balance around the top, that will actually kill DBD. There's few things that COULD kill DBD, and making average players miserable is one of them.
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I reject the premise of your question, you do not need to choose between one or the other when both can be considered
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I don't need to because my new question is more appropriate, S-tiers are doo doo and poison lol
Like I just don't understand why you'd ever defend them, the game is far more fun for both sides when an A-tier or lower is used1 -
I know your position, already had t his discussion with you multiple times.
Thus then nurse is fine and so is blight and probably ghoul (i don't know if they have officially released stats around ghoul) because in the hands of average skill players they perform averagely.
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See, you are getting it a little bit, but explain a bit more, what would you do then, nerf nurse/blight/ghoul and let the top tier survivors just roam free? What would your plan be?
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The issue isn't S tiers existing. Even in a world where Nurse and Blight get nerfed, whichever killer(s) is/are currently the best performing will become the new S tier.
The problem is that Nurse/Blight perform way above other killers and there's been no attempt by BHVR to fix this gap. They've just been allowed to remain as strong as they are while BHVR focuses their attention on every other killer.
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This is so tiring. Nurse greatly underperforms at low level and overperforms at high level. Good news! We can actually rework her in a way that fixes BOTH.
- Rework her power to be less mechanically/muscle memory dependent. Now new players can play her without getting embarrassed for 4-6 hours straight.
- As part of her rework she will now have to actually obey regular game mechanics like every other killer. Now she doesn't vastly overperform at high level by ignoring every defense survivors have.
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No they dont turn people away and blight is one of most loved killers by survivors and many will rock you if you say his nerfs (removed hug tech, his old addon nerf like og alchemy ring or compound 33) were very small, which they were because before them he was s-tier, second best killer in the game and after these nerfs he is …… yes s-tier killer still second best in the game so what realy chaged he became harder but its still supper strong.
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So you gonna nerf survivors then to make the other 25+ killers viable too? What nerfs would you do?
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Considering the devs balance for a 60% kill rate, i'd say that yeah, being 8% above their target is pretty broken.
Also i believe this stat is quite old isn't it?
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Also i hard disagree with this take, S-tier killers aren't going to turn players away, because the players in question aren't going against S-tier killers that often, and if they are, they are winning just as much at the average as any other killer.
You are conflating this argument thinking that average survivors are going against S-tier killers played by super high skilled killer players. When they are not ,they are going against average killer players playing the S-tier killers, often to less success than other killers when you look at the average skill level stats.
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No offence but you play a-tier who has every tool (almost every but the key ones he has) for most situations like bat (mobility, teleport and huge catch up just better vesion of mobility than wraith), wolf (great chase form with guarantee bloodlust in forms of orb scents and better dash than weskers in my opinion they are shorter but harder to doge and can be played more easily on loops, tracking with scent orbs and more brighter blood like he had bloodgund perk which was something wraith had too he had brighter blood in 2017 on christmas with his buffs or 2018 but then devs took it away even wraith should be tracking killer too or his perks are fucused in that way) and weakest but great vampire form which is just m1 with some range attack which is like combination of nemesis whip and pyramids punishment but its great tool on mid safe loops which has objects/walls same height as dracula (he can shoot over them) or he is like pyramidhead great with it while dealing with bodyblocks or hook saves.
Unknow is more tricky killer, you have to hit most of your shots (same as artist but he is easier) or you will get nothing, plus you have teleport.
In comp survivors have hard restrictions because these cracked swfs can go toe to toe with s-tiers and from some I believe is even stated if they all could run ds,dead hard,otr, deliverance or unbreakable they would destroy most killers like nothing (staptics and other strong items with addons), thats just true swf have not only best information in the game but they can make strategies and pull them better than soloq where the players cant tell each other where will who be and what will he do which is why they dominate like half of the killers most of times and killers like ghostface or hag are joke for them.
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I love the baseline assumption that the holy 60% kill rate is "balance" and cannot be questioned. This from the side notorious for calling their opponents "entitled".
Winning vs slightly closer to half of your opponents rather than well above doesn't make them unviable. In fact some might even say they're more balanced.
What I've said for years is A-B tier is the standard for good and balanced killer design. That's Wesker, Huntress, Artist, etc. Strong killers with a good amount of skill expression and counterplay for both sides. So knock down the S tiers to A-B, buff any that are below A-B (they've been doing that slowly already though some have had mixed results like Myers). Then perks and maps can actually be adjusted in a fair way. Yes, this would mean no more 2k winstreaks for Nurse and Blight mains, but killers don't feel entitled to winning every match so surely they will understand.
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Survivors have barely changed for years, the only thing thats changed is the really awful killer an perk design.
To fix this game they need to make it fair for both killer and survivor WITHOUT perks and if they are gonna balance, balance around that.2 -
When killers go for kill streaks they are not going for 12 hooks. They will kill someone asap and slug as much as they can. If bhvr implements a system like in the last PTB you won't see these long streaks. Really when SBMM was tight you didn't have win streaks because every match was competitive. If it wasn't for streamer tears making the MM rules looser you wouldn't be seeing winning streaks now.
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We haven't seen Ghoul stats, iirc.
And as I've said previously, I wouldn't mind making Nurse more beginner-friendly.
There's no reason we can't take both perspectives into consideration. That was my mistake in my response, there's no reason for it to be one or the other.
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well thats it, I love this game as a game for everyone, and recent additions have made it less so.
I know not everything I say is right, but I'm all for changes that make the game a better place for casual players.
So please everyone suggest what can make the game better, I know I generalise but that's all I want: Anyone defending the S-tiers is entirely the problem.-1 -
BHVR is never gonna touch Blight. This killer has been left overpowered for years.
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Give Blight a reload. Either at lockers or on the go with a slowdown like Clown.
Fixed.
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that's a good idea, possibly something for them to test, I love a lot of your ideas btw you put accessibility first.
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Not entirely true.
While yes, Nurse and Blight are on the harder side to fully learn and master, they really don't take that long to be sufficiently good at either. The Ghouls are just ridiculosuly easy to learn for how strong they really are.Besides, there are ways to make them less powerful, like applying Blindness to Nurse when she charges a blink, or hitting Blight with a full reset to his charges whenever he breaks a pallet with his power, a similar limitation to how Ghoul functions in fact.
Ghoul only needs a slightly longer movespeed penalty when canceling power to be in a more healthy state, as they catch up way too fast after canceling. I know this because I often play Ghoul.
But at least all these killers has counterplay elements.Now, I have not mentioned the elephant in the room, which is the Krasue, but that is what truly overpowered without real counterplay looks like.
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I agree with the general idea. I would take reworks to the S tier killers over adding a million pallets to every map. It's true that the changes to pallet density have made playing against Blight and other strong killers a tad easier but I also agree that it has made playing as weaker killers extremely hard. Played a pig game recently and it was absurd how many pallets there were.
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honestly there should be no d c or s tiers. Only b and a tiers. But lets be real we will never get that.
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Tier lists are, by definition, relative. There will always be an S tier.
If you nerf all the S tiers, the current A tiers will become the S tiers, and people will demand nerfs for them next.
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But thats just false per the data that BHVR releases. Nurse is CONSISTENTLY one of the lowest if not THE lowest in terms of kill rate. Showing that "at the average level" the average killer player is doing very badly with her.
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Then all stealth killers should be removed, stealth killers should never be anywhere near strong
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It doesn't matter how your order it. Having 15-20% of the roster far outperforming the rest will never result in a balanced game when maps and survivor strength are held relatively constant. By your logic we should never nerf anything. Alch Ring is S tier but meh we shouldn't nerf it. Insta gen BNPs are S tier but we can't nerf them because then people will complain about flashlights. Absurd.
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By your logic we should never nerf anything
No, it's just we shouldn't necessarily nerf something just because it's one of the best. That leads to a weird, inverse power-creep where everything just gets worse instead of better.
There are absolutely reasons why S tier things should be nerfed, but it goes beyond the fact that they are S tier. If the power difference is objectively too high, like in the cases of the examples you mentioned, then yes, adjustments are necessary. However, just because something is in the top range of effectiveness doesn't mean it immediately warrants a nerf, you need a more nuanced approach than that.
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This statement here is case and point as to why Blight (and Huntress, to a lesser extent) has completely warped the killer role around themselves for the worse and why the community has gaslit itself into believe these are the ONLY acceptable forms of killer that can exist. Blight is one of the most boring and uninteractive killers in the game, yet people scream and complain when a killer doesn't function like he does to the point they end up nerfed into uselessness.
We aren't allowed to have unique killers anymore with powers that do different things. We aren't allowed to have play styles that don't involves just running really fast at survivors or throwing something at them. Everything must be a variation of Blight or Huntress.
The killer roster has gotten so mind numbingly stale.
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You left out the part where I said killers below A-B tiers should be brought up as well. My point is the variability between killer power levels is too much to balance the rest of the game around fairly. Since survivors and maps don't change much other than the occasional pallet RNG screwing one side (you could possibly make an argument about mmr here too), the killer power levels at the extremes need to be brought in line with the bulk of the roster.
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nefing these killers wont solve much. survs die to them because they are bad as a team. nerf them and the average team will still ask for nerfs. there're a lot bigger problems than a few really good blight/nurse mains whom you dont even see except rarely. the rest of the players are just mediocre and can be easily beaten.
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That’s not allowed to happen though. Look at what happened with Clown. He was actually decent for a while, and it got so many complaints that he’s back to being useless.
Like, people can say “oh, let’s buff the weaker killers”, but it’s not actually allowed to happen in any meaningful way because it just gets complaints.
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- I'm convinced that Blight and Nurse are so strong (and will never be nerfed) because no one will ever say that DBD is pay-to-win. Nurse is in the "base game," while for Blight, you just need to play consistently for a month and you can buy it with in-game currency. These two killers are their "defense" for any criticism they may receive regarding monetization.
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Killers can be unique without being unhealthy and unsalvageable, hope this helps
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We also have to consider that "High mmr" can go from 1k hours Swf and medium experienced players to comp players in comms doing streaks. I really believe that at the highest level Survivors are escaping much more than 48% , specially considering there are some known Swfs that escape a lot (like those who do winstreaks).
With exception of some very busted perks , addons and toolboxes i really believe that the devs should focus more on making SoloQ more coordinated than just trying to nerf the stronger killers to achieve balance.
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True. If a killer is strong and popular it will be nerfed. See Wesker for example. Singularity mains are lucky because Singularity never will be popular otherwise it would be hard nerfed.
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How did Wesker get significantly nerfed?
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The Clown disaster was the last time survivor and killer mains agreed on something. Don't try and frame it like it was about him being too strong. Imo it didn't even move him upward in tier very much because the purple bottles got nerfed in that update. Maybe it was a slight buff but in an extremely unhealthy way at the cost of nuking whatever skill expression he had in favor of the most brainless playstyle imaginable.
I'm not sure how to buff him without making his chase even more oppressive. I think it would be interesting to have gradual lasting debilitating effects from the tonic exposure. Things like slower exhaustion recovery, visual/audio hallucinations, blur/double vision, etc., similar to doctor. The problem is BHVR boxes themselves into a corner where any time they try to add an immersive effect on screen, someone somewhere complains they got a headache, and the devs bend over backwards until the effect might as well not exist. So we're left with speed buffs, teleport, ranged attacks, and dashes. I don't think any of those really fits Clown's design.
How would you buff him (without permanent 20% haste for doing nothing)?
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