Yes, we need anti tunneling changes. But we also need to reduce the gen pop speed.
Stuff like the elusive effect, or any form of removing your hitbox for a set amount of time after unhook, making the last person unhooked not appear in aura readings, basekit unbreakable are all stuff that would benefit the game's health a lot, HOWEVER, we would still have the issue of only a few killers being able to compete with coordinated survivors, or non S tier killers needing to always throw half their perk slots into gen regression to make it so not every chase costs a gen.
There's a few things that could be done IMO, that would be nice to get, but only IF we do get the survivor sided changes:
- Some form of basekit gen regression that is passive, not reliant on gen kicking. Gen kicking regression would mostly only help the already oppressive killers, while leaving out the slower ones, that need it the most, hanging. So something like basekit Deadlock would be a much more sensible option, as it already is mostly relegated to the killers that struggle to apply pressure.
- An incentive to spread hooks around, say, "showing the players who have at most one hook for 7 seconds once you hook someone for the first time" would be pretty neat and helpful.
- Turning the system that makes gens progress slower the more people work on them into a global thing that applies to all gens. An example being: The person that's working on the gen with the most progress makes progress at normal rate, the person working on the second gen with most progress works at a 75% rate, the third at a 50% rate and so on..
Most of these changes would actually incentivise spreading your hooks, instead of randomly punishing them because a survivor wants to throw themselves in the way. Stuff like basekit unbreakable, elusive effect, and not seeing the last unhooked person's aura would all synergise very well with the changes meant to stop survivors from all spreading around gens and making it very difficult for weaker killers to apply pressure without tunneling. Strong killers would not be nearly as benefitted by these changes as weaker ones, since the passive gen blocking from basekit deadlock is not really geared for the faster, more active gen regression these killers use, while slower killers could actually use them to chase more and at least hope that they won't hear more than one gen pop in close sucession.
Comments
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The division between the upvotes and downvotes is pretty interesting, (currently it's 4 upvotes to 3 downvotes) though especially for the downvotes, it can be a bit confusing to know which part of it you dislike. Is it the idea of anti tunneling/slugging changes in general? The proposed counterbalance to gen speeds? Both? Something else entirely that i'm missing?
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i wouldnt pay attention to downvotes, people will downvote literally anything just because they can….wouldnt be surprised if this comment gets downvoted tbh lol
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Honestly, fair, kinda funny that people will downvote with such ambiguity that you can't know which side they think is bad...
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I agree that Gen Pop' ing should be dealt with as well, but it will have to wait its turn.
We cant solve everything in a single patch, that is impossible.I suggest we see how the balance lands post Anti-tunneling and then we can deal with it.
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This is exactly why you should have to comment first before you downvote someone's post or downvotes should've just stayed gone. We have no idea what it is people dislike unless they actually participate in the conversation. This isn't a broad topic, give your thoughts on what he said or don't even bother looking at the post. Have some decency and common sense
Edit: Down/Up Votes shouldn't be anonymous. That way, consistent forum users can know who has major bias towards certain topics or user's opinions.
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Tbh, they should've scrap antitunnel and antislug but leave the hook incentive. Best values would be:
If you hook unique hook (not the survivor hooked as last), you get:
→ Global 50 % regression to all generators (50 %→0 %, 75 %→25 % etc.)
→ Global aura reading for 8s on all alive survivors
→ 25 % haste for 15s
→ 5 % decreased basic attack cooldown for remainder of the trial, up to 60 %
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Downvoted because, if you want coordinated SWFs to be less powerful, just nerf them. Don't boost killer and leave solo queue EVEN FURTHER in the dust…
Also, can survivors get anything before we start talking about killer buffs to compensate??? They already nerfed OTR and gave killers extra HUD elements after yanking the last PTB. It seems like a bad time to ask for even more buffs.
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Gen speeds are certainly a tough one to balance. In the hands of swfs generators fly while the dedicated looper keeps a killers attention. In solo que generators only fly if someone isnt going down in seconds, otherewise they feel like they take an eternity without some kinda perk or toolbox, especially against someone you know will see you across the map very soon, and can cross the map very quickly. But even with random people the team either atleast finnishes all the gens before dieing or escaping, or they barely get 1 done before its over lol
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Just add a 6th gen. If they bring 4 spare parts and delete a gen in 20 seconds it doesnt matter as much.
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I do agree to some extent, the reason i chose the gen slowdown methods i did is because of a few reasons to do with how solo vs swf operates, mainly that at least from my experience(both playing and watching a lot of streams on people playing), multi-genning is a mostly swf thing. Most of the time, solo players are either on one gen, spread around doing a multitude of tasks such as trying to unhook, doing chases, healing or just hiding, while swfs tend to deliberately work on multiple gens at once(often with items and addons to help doing so even faster), which is only really balanced against the higher tier killers with some level of slugging/tunneling involved (note that i mean balanced here, not fun, because it really isn't fun for anybody).
Personal experience isn't an encompasing thing, and shouldn't be a marker for everything, though at least for this part they make me think specifically nerfing going for multiple gens at once would have a much bigger impact on swfs than solo queues, and the same for lower tier killers that cannot contend the pressure. The same applies for not adding something like basekit pop goes, which would mostly mess up solo queue and help already very strong killers, and getting something more passive like deadlock instead.
And yes, i did bring this up because i WANT anti tunneling and anti slugging changes very much, but i also don't want te already messy balance of less than great killers to be completely bonked over.-1 -
Two of your suggestions I think would just attribute to tunneling more than anything.
Your second point:
- An incentive to spread hooks around, say, "showing the players who have at most one hook for 7 seconds once you hook someone for the first time" would be pretty neat and helpful.^^^This would just lead to tunneling two survivors instead of one. The killer would be incentivized to juggle two survivors if they want to play optimally. Or, as I like to call it, "diet tunneling" or "tunneling lite." You hook a survivor for the first time and are shown the aura of somebody you've already hooked? What do you do with that information? You go after somebody who has already been hooked. I also don't know how this would differ much from the basekit BBQ that was proposed on the PTB, other than not having a distance component. And to be fair, the basekit BBQ on the PTB felt fine as-is.
Your third point:
- Turning the system that makes gens progress slower the more people work on them into a global thing that applies to all gens. An example being: The person that's working on the gen with the most progress makes progress at normal rate, the person working on the second gen with most progress works at a 75% rate, the third at a 50% rate and so on.^^^This actually rewards tunneling. Because in this scenario, the survivors can't even attempt to bang out gens if the killer is fixated on one survivor. It actually penalizes survivors for doing the one thing they can currently do to effectively counter tunneling. And that is to bang out gens while the killer hyperfixates on one survivor.
What was introduced on the PTB was fine. Some form of basekit BBQ and Pop as an incentive to the killer. I get your frustration about not wanting to go full meta if you want to 4k with Trapper or Wraith or some other non-S-Tier killer… but the game shouldn't be balanced around wanting to use a meme build on a C-Tier killer and get a 4k every time. If you want to play a killer with a less-than lethal kit… you might have to run some gen slowdown. Or at least a build that has good synergy with the killer's power.
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If you think juggling hooks between 2 players is tunneling, idk what to tell you. Thats not what the word means at all! Besides, having at most one hook means if you do it to 2 people you won't see them in the 7 seconds system anymore, it does actually reward you for going for everyone at least once.
Actually, back to that first part... how does "juggling hooks between survivors" constitute tunneling?? Not every game has a perfect spread of hooks, and even by the insanely punitive ptb standards, killing someone on 6th hook was fine. Do people not know what tunneling means anymore?
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Killers can, and do, just focus on two survivors the entire match. The person who is first hooked, and the person who unhooked them. Worrying about 2 people in a match is a lot easier than worrying about 4. And if you're able to get one of those 2 people out of the match ASAP… then you're in a 3v1 situation. You can argue semantics if you want and not consider this tunneling… but… idk what to tell you. It's basically tunneling. I'm guessing that's why the 'insanely punitive ptb standards' had the condition that any survivors out of the match before 6 hook stages triggered the anti-tunnel mechanics.
And to be clear… what was proposed on the ptb was far from being 'insanely punitive.' You just might have a skill issue with the game.
Your suggested 'fixes' are half-baked and play right into this type of specific scenario.
I understand what tunneling means, and I'm telling you that what you've suggested does nothing to disincentivize tunneling.
Any other questions?
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Next you're going to tell us you're a 12,000 hour killer main and he never has problems hitting all four survs, spreading hook states, and getting 4ks all the time!
seriously people aren't fooled by these surv main posts.-3 -
Not 12 hooking is tunneling!
It's actually balanced that for like 60% of killers ingame you might need to face swfs that will spread around and make 3 gens pop during one chase with little to no way to apply enough map pressure to stop them!
These forums are something else man..
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…I never claimed any of those things, nor am I trying to "fool" anybody with this post.
OP outlined some half-assed ways that 'anti-tunneling' would be palatable to them, without giving it more than a half-second thought because their ideas are… not great.
I pointed that out.
He's mad.
You're mad.
I'm laughing.
The fact remains… what was proposed on the PTB was fine. But people who are bad at this game threw their arms in the air and cried because they can't be lazy with their gameplay anymore and actually have to use their brains or learn how to loop better. Stay mad. Stay bad. <3
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I'm sorry but in what world is 50% global regression a good idea? If pain res is just 20% and is powerful how is this going to be balanced at all???
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Pain res also serves only when survivors are not very good. In higher mmr games you will lose 2-3 gens before hooks happen.
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Honestly though, how would you even go about nerfing sfws? The idea about multiple gens having a penalty is specific to target behavior that mainly happens on swfs, since they spread people across gens while having one dedicated chaser at a time. Besides, we've had a multitude of things on killer side balanced around S tier killers, to the detriment of every other killer. The same isn't really true when it comes to swfs, solo q still suffers, but behavior does nothing that would actually affect the swfs..
By all means, nerf the S tier killers, im all for that, but it is not a consistent, nor balanced, to gut a ton of killer qol and features based on S tier killers being overly oppressive and unfun with them, and then not even consider doing the same thing to cap the effectiveness of full survive with friends teams.
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