http://dbd.game/killswitch
So... when is the anti-tunnel and anti-slug measures BHVR promised is coming in...?
Comments
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It seems like it isn't the same level because you like one set of changes and dislike the other.
Not very objective, imo, but we are allowed to play favorites.
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I don't consider aggressive playing to be bullying.This is the only thing I consider a bully squad. They're going for weak, new killers who don't understand how to deal with sabos, pallet saves, or flashlights. It's not bullying unless your victim is weaker than you.Agree, though as I say on things like tunneling terminology is always going to be vague.
I probably do come across these teams sometimes and they're simply so ineffectual that I don't even notice. Running Lightborn (and currently Weave and, sometimes, Forced Hesitation) makes these plays not just useless but detrimental, because I see them behind the rock with the Weave and the Hesitation slows them down for me to hit them.It's interesting given that a frequent argument against tunneling is 'just run anti-tunnel' when there are so many varieties of ways that make bully squads not work. Even without perks certain killers will shut it down really quickly.
That whole "don't mind losing occasionally" is something that varies by person, and everyone gets fatigued by losing streaks, but some people do seem to get set off completely by one game out of dozens of wins.Or, more hilariously, the posts which are 'the game is survivor sided, look the survivors almost won!'
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This is actually a fair and balanced approach. Thumbs up from me.
5 hooks as the limit, since that can also help reducing staggered tunneling (alternating between two select survivors)1 -
Its clear they were ready to go live and pull it last second. BHVR being BHVR they left nearly every other change going with it in.
Unlikely but hopefully they fully test the next system in a PTB and shoot for the following mid chapter to bring it live if it passes.
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For sure, it's just my observation based on lurking/posting on different platforms over the years and if it doesn't apply to someone then they shouldn't take it personally.
I agree. I almost wanna say it's the role itself that creates that narcissistic attitude. Being the 1 in the 1v4 contributes to that somewhat, but it's hard to say if that's the only reason. I'm still figuring it out.
Very much this too. I think humiliation and a sense of control factor into it greatly. It's why the types it does apply to get so bent out of shape over social elements like bagging at the gates, but are totally fine with oppressive aspects of the game that don't affect them. Not saying anything with DBD is that serious, but it is interesting to unravel.
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I think if it does come back, it'll be before the end of the year. If not, then who knows.
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make your own forum about ragequiting, this forum was originally about anti slugging and tunneling (which you can see by the title of the post) and people have deluded it into a forum about rage quitters and other issues that are not even related. (like trying to make another que or trying to bring up bully squads in a discussion about anti slugging and camping. its like if I went to a post about someone complaining about pallet density and my response is "yeah but what about survivors versing a Krasue"
Post edited by random1543 on5 -
Thank you, this is exactly what I've been hoping for. I think these are reasonable ideas, with a few notes:
Give it the Incapacitated effect as a placeholder. This prevents Item usage.
Blocking item usage and even pallets is a good idea, but I think full "incapacitated" is too much. The survivor should have a way to choose to do conspicuous actions and not just have the eruption problem of standing at a gen afk until a timer runs out. Just not the ability to "choose instantly while invincible standing at a pallet".
Things like chests, gens, and interacting with killer powers should be possible actions, but cancel the effect. Agree, though, that items or pallets, for example, should be blocked.
Remove auto-aim
This should just be a toggle in settings. Like shadowborn Fov, just let the player decide. I don't play console, so maybe it impacts them more, but iirc you do play console so maybe it's not as necessary as, say, a shooter.
The HUD should always be accurate, and reward keeping an eye on things,
This is an excellent point, and fully agree.
Unique Hook Bonus
No real complaints here in the theory, just that I don't think BHVR is going to make 2 tiers of the effect to implement. They've been hesitant to do "killer specific" core gameplay effects in the past, but they need to eventually make some kind of change that isn't just buffing blight because trapper needs help. Not sure if they will get over that for this feature.
It could also be spaghetti code issues. Like, doing so would cause hooks to spawn instead of exit gates or something.
As an aside, I've been asking for details since the PTB and this is the first time I've seen something other than just "it's abusable" with no explanation or solution besides "pull the plug on everything, don't do it, no no no no no".
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They are related, because survivors complained so much about the phase 1 survivor changes that they got massively nerfed, but they also expect the phase 2 killer changes to be as powerful as possible.
Phase 1 and phase 2 should be treated equally. The phase 2 changes should be small and not very impactful, because that is what happened to the phase 1 changes.
The suggestions in this thread are way overboard, considering how weak the phase 1 changes are. This thread is basically a "how can we nerf killers" instead of "how can we balance the game".
And none of these suggestions would fix the kill rate problem, where the changes would massively lower kill rates, but there isn't enough compensation to bring the kill rates back up to 60%. Remember that the kill rates are supposed to be at least 60%, even if you don't want them to be. Which means if you make giant killer nerfs, without proper compensation, then you aren't balancing the game properly. The easiest solution would for the "killers aren't tunneling" incentives to be much more powerful, but instead, people just want to nerf nerf nerf, and don't want killers to have real compensation that actually helps them change their playstyle.
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If the changes aren't impactful, then what is even the point?
And the tunnel reduction did give Killers compensation for unique hooks, but no one cared about that. It was supposed to have a big impact, but now that it's back on the drawing board, we'll probably get a watered down version which will accomplish nothing.
And it's not like the tunnel reduction would be the end of everything for Killers. If kill rates did suffer as a result, there would be further adjustments down the road, whether it be system adjustments, general Killer adjustments, or specific Killer adjustments. But no one cares about that, because they're going to keep demanding more and more Killer buffs, and more and more Survivor nerfs.
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"Further adjustments down the road" means the phase 2 changes should wait until the adjustments are ready.
The kill rates are always supposed to average around 60%.
We aren't supposed to have a "well, the kill rates are really bad, but we'll fix it over the next few months" situation.
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Like I said, it's a placeholder. I think it's an issue that Elusive allows for flashlight saves and/or pallet saves.
They already made two tiers of the effect, I just modified it a bit.
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i don't think its healthy to be talking about kill rates when we don't even know what the current ones are, BHVR has not given us official stats on what the kill rates in over a year and there is no way to get a official number (i swear last one i saw was around when they reworked Freddy)
you are just assuming the kill rate will drop below 60% when we haven't even had access to them stats in over a year, the current kill rates on certain killers could be over 80 percent but we don't know. (no nightlight does not count, im talking about official stats released by bhvr.)
Edit: this is the last official kill rate i could find posted in 2022. please if there is something newer show but dont go on about kill rates when you dont even know what they are (again nightlight does not count as it only includes matches people upload
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https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/503-stats-january-march-2025
We literally got official stats in April of 2025, with official statements that the average kill rate was 60% and the average escape rates were 41%-42%
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The most recent official stats way from back in the January to March block.
One of the biggest problems with BHVR's data is they are either purposefully obscuring things, or they don't understand why certain numbers are the way they are.
Freddy was fresh off his rework, so it wasn't a surprise to see him high. Lot of people played him and survivors were still learning how to deal with him, so his kill and pick rate was unnaturally high. I imagine it did not stay there otherwise we would have been changes by now. And we don't really see anyone complaining about Freddy.
MMR 500 is pretty low, so it isn't a surprise to see Sadako and Dredge fairly high, but those are not telling the full story. Example: Sadako is low level stomper, but is generally a really weak killer once survivors have an idea of how to play. She falls off hard as MMR goes up. She has no chase and Condemn is basically worthless against average survivors. Dredge is inherently stronger than Sadako, but has the same problem of falling off as survivors get better and can better deal with his powers.
Blight, Nurse and Spirit are almost always in the top of the kill rates because they have inherently broken powers. Skull Merchant was completely gutted for having a 68% kill rate, yet killers like Blight and Nurse continue to be untouched for years.
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thank you I knew there was one around freddy rework i just couldnt find
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Impossible, since we don't know what kinds of adjustments will be needed. And the only way to know that is to release the changes and let us play with them for some time. Nothing is ever perfect and flawless upon release.
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No. That's not acceptable, because if a patch happened that massively raised kill rates, you know survivors would be complaining non-stop until the changes were reverted.
The actual solution is to figure out a balanced system, which includes the adjustments, and test it on the PTB to see if the kill rates are similar to the average PTB. And if the kill rates are too low, then you delay phase 2 even further until another set of adjustments can be made.
BHVR doesn't ever need for phase 2 to go live before its' ready. It only takes a couple of days on the PTB to figure out if the changes are completely out of control or not. The kill rates on the last PTB were massively lower than average, and it's not because killers "didn't adapt", it's because the PTB was completely out of control.
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And how meaningful do you think two days of data gathering from a select audience was?
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"The kill rates on the last PTB where low" how do you know this? You said yourself the last kill rate stats we got where jan- march this year. There is no way for you to know the legitimate stats in the last PTB outside of your gut feeling or assumptions.
Also the PTB has no MMR which makes it more useless for proper testing.
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No. That's not acceptable, because if a patch happened that massively raised kill rates, you know survivors would be complaining non-stop until the changes were reverted.
Demonstrably false, 6.1 happened.
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How many matches do you think occurred on the PTB in that time frame?
It's not a stretch to say that they had thousands of matches worth of data in that time frame if even a very small portion (ie 1% - 5%) of the Steam player base played any number of games on the PTB.
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Why not let it go on for longer and gather even more? What was it hurting? If you truly intend to rework something, there's no reason not to have as much possible.
The extremely limited participants, many performing for social media, is also part of the issue. It's not just normal, average playing going on on the ptb. Some variation coming to live would create a true understanding of normal people interacting with the system.
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More data often yields better results.
So testing with a larger audience, and with a wide range of skill is preferable. Remember that most people who do test PTB changes often have thousands of hours of playtime in the game.1 -
AFAIK, the PTB did continue.
The data probably lead to the same conclusion, hence the lack of updates on the system as of now.
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Fun fact: Survivors aren't Killers, and the roles are not equal. They're not meant to be equal. Therefore, the changes needed for both roles will not be equal.
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Yet despite whatever data they gathered, the Tenacity and OTR nerfs that were clearly intended to be in conjunction with the tunneling and slugging changes went through. The hook states for killers were also obviously connected. Krasue was buffed into a state that made her instantly dispised. All these elements combined have instead made tunneling even more prevalent in my survivor matches and, it would seem, in many other people's. So the data gathered was either poor, its implementation was far from optimal, or BHVR is tragically incompetent.
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Hopefully they fix these issues.
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's a combination of all three: data gathered was poor, implementation was very far from optimal, and BHVR has demonstrated over and over again during the past year that they're tragically incompetent.
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The last time survivor complaints hit critical mass, was when the healing times got massively increased. And if you remember correctly, BHVR ended up reverting the healing times for altruistic healing.
You can just observe the 6000+ hour streamers, that usually just stomp over the vast majority of their PTB games, that were having severely reduced kill rates.
But really, it's common sense the kill rates would be majorly affected. For reals, do you think killers camp, tunnel, and slug because they are hateful and spiteful towards survivors, or do you think they do these things because they are at severe game disadvantages if they avoid doing these things?
Like seriously, of course the kill rates are going to go way down. The incentives were absolutely terrible. Do you really think nerfed BBQ, that was easily dodged, and often showed 0 survivors, was really going to help killers spread hooks?
Am I stuck in an alternate universe? Does anyone really REALLY think that the phase 2 changes wouldn't have severely lowered the kill rates, if it went live as it was?
Why difference does it really make that it was a few days? You still would have whined and complained if they waited 3 weeks. And if the changes went live, and were reverted shortly afterwards, you would have extra triple whined and complained about that.
Why are you pretending that you would have been fine and accepting of the patch revert, if BHVR took longer before the announcement?
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The last time survivor complaints hit critical mass, was when the healing times got massively increased. And if you remember correctly, BHVR ended up reverting the healing times for altruistic healing.
That was in Patch 6.7.2 - Only self-healing got affected by the changes, not altruistic healing. And looping back to the discussion from yesterday, you are once again derailing the topic.
You can just observe the 6000+ hour streamers, that usually just stomp over the vast majority of their PTB games, that were having severely reduced kill rates.
You know that new stuff takes some games to adjust to, right?
No one is going to be instantly proficient on a new killer, or a completely reworked one.Like seriously, of course the kill rates are going to go way down. The incentives were absolutely terrible. Do you really think nerfed BBQ, that was easily dodged, and often showed 0 survivors, was really going to help killers spread hooks?
I on my hand had zero issues with the incentives. Granted the BBQ effect could have lasted a tad longer, but the added gen-regression worked so well.
For reals, do you think killers camp, tunnel, and slug because they are hateful and spiteful towards survivors, or do you think they do these things because they are at severe game disadvantages if they avoid doing these things?
Like killer players always tell us survivor players. "Why don't you just adapt?"
Apply more pressure, and force the survivors off of the gens, instead of trying to chase down someone you know you are going to waste a lot of precious time with.
And do you think that we survivor players split up on gens because we want to gen-rush, or do you think we do this becuase we would be at a severe disadvantage if we grouped up on gens instead?
In short: If you want to keep on tunneling, we will answer with gen-splitting.Am I stuck in an alternate universe? Does anyone really REALLY think that the phase 2 changes wouldn't have severely lowered the kill rates, if it went live as it was?
Initially, it would have lowered the kill rates, because some killer players has artificially inflated their kill rates, thanks to how easy tunneling someone out really is.
But if killers were starting to really struggle, then those hardest affected would have received compensating buffs to be brought closer to the target percentage.
And the system could have been tweaked accordingly through the bug-fix patches.Why difference does it really make that it was a few days? You still would have whined and complained if they waited 3 weeks. And if the changes went live, and were reverted shortly afterwards, you would have extra triple whined and complained about that.
Why are you pretending that you would have been fine and accepting of the patch revert, if BHVR took longer before the announcement?
Well, for starters, the patch would have reached out to many more players, which would provide even more useful data, and valuable insight into how it should be properly balanced.
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So you obviously think that Ghoul should have been released exactly as he was on the PTB, and there should have been a mandatory “wait and see” amount of time, where BHVR gathered data from a wider audience.
And only after all that happens, could Ghoul finally have received his first nerf?
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It's sort of funny how powerful 6.1.0 is in an argument just because the Killer complaints haven't changed. 😵
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Ghoul was horribly bugged on the PTB, which is a different story altogether.
It's sort of funny how powerful 6.1.0 is in an argument just because the Killer complaints haven't changed. 😵
That much is true. Also 6.7.2 from a survivor's standpoint @UnicornMedal
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So if BHVR fixed Ghoul's bugs, you would have been fine with absolutely everything else from the PTB reaching live for a few weeks, before Ghoul's first non-bug nerf?
Really? Do you understand how many things have been nerfed with Ghoul, that weren't bug-related? Do you remember how massively overtuned his Kagune Mark auto-aim was on the PTB? Do you remember that he pretty much had non-stop Enrage Mode on the PTB? Do you remember how quickly Ghoul recovered from a leap on the PTB, if he hit the cancel button in mid-air, because the slide component wasn't added as basekit yet? And his leap range wasn't nerfed yet, and he didn't have a token penalty from breaking a pallet yet?
Like, you're really going to tell me that PTB Ghoul, without the bugs, would have been fine to release for a few weeks, so everyone could "wait and see", and try to adapt to him, before making the first non-bug nerf?
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The last time survivor complaints hit critical mass, was when the healing times got massively increased. And if you remember correctly, BHVR ended up reverting the healing times for altruistic healing.
Given that you didn't dispute 6.1, you agree then that you were wrong?
Also, the heal nerf only got adjusted, not reverted, so you're wrong on that count, too.
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I disagree, they -have- changed!
They've gotten worse.
Legitimately, killers were more optimistic about balance before 6.1 than they are now.
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I don't defend the use of rage quits. I I defend the exchange of them for a bot. Give me a bot anyday. I'm surprised at how few people play solo cue.
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You still would have whined and complained
You're the last person to talk about whining and complaining. A huge chunk of this thread is you hijacking it to whine about one of your personal crusades.
Like, you're really going to tell me that PTB Ghoul, without the bugs, would have been fine to release for a few weeks, so everyone could "wait and see", and try to adapt to him, before making the first non-bug nerf?
Chill on the strawmen. Almost no one wanted the patch to go through without changes. Plenty of people in this very thread are saying they wanted adjustments.
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It is very doom and gloom. 😵 At this point, if nothing is ever good enough, I'm not sure why we can't buff Survivor a bit more. It'll garner an apocalyptic response either way.
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That would mean admitting that people can know if something needs to be changed, just by seeing it on the PTB, and it's not required to reach live, and it's not required for a larger number of people to try it out.
And if you admit that sometimes changes are so bad that people can figure that out on the PTB, that would mean admitting that it's possible the phase 2 changes were so bad that people could figure that out on the PTB.
It's not a strawman, because this is in response to an argument that was claiming it is absolutely impossible to know if a change is bad on the PTB before it reaches live. That's what happens when people talk in absolutes, and say a thing is ALWAYS true.
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Pretty sure just about everything gets adjustments from the ptb. No one expects everything to go live as is. And then it gets adjusted again in a fix. And again, in another fix. But adjusting and nuking aren't the same. You want to talk about whining. The nuclear response was likely because of popular streamers and social media posts that cried endlessly, not because of data.
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You know that new stuff takes some games to adjust to, right?No one is going to be instantly proficient on a new killer, or a completely reworked one.I do think this is a big point where BHVR really messed up by cancelling the PTB so quickly. It didn't give people time to adjust their playstyles or, for people who never tunneled, to be more successful as the new meta fit within their playstyle more naturally.
And it was just a misunderstanding of the extreme ends of the spectrum (the streamers with huge hour counts) and how much they would impact the overall numbers if they could no longer go on substantial win streaks.
It also was hampered by trying to do all of the pallet changes at the same time. I feel like if the choice had been anti-tunnel system or more pallets lots of killers would have taken the anti-tunnel.
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You know, I am pretty sure that would have been the case too.
Considering how many posts there has been regarding pallets over the past two weeks or so.It would have made more sense to test either in a separate way, not just everything at once.
- Yes, some maps really needed the increase in pallets, like a few Coldwind variants, Borgo, the Pale Rose, and Haddonfield. But MacMillan was perfect the way it was beforehand, and some others just needed a minor increase (like one or two extra pallets). And Crotus Prenn really didn't need to become more dense with pallets, only shifting around some tile spawns, to reduce a dead zone that could occur in front of the Asylum.But to not get sidetracked here, there should have been a separate test period for the anti-tunnel / anti-slug changes, to test the impact on the playerbase after adjusting to the other changes.
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Actual real question. If BHVR released the entire phase 2 PTB to the live servers, then 4 weeks later realized it was a complete disaster, and completely reverted the entire phase 2, would you have been happy?
Would you have said "well, BHVR really gave phase 2 enough time for people to properly test it, and properly give feedback, and the fact that it's getting completely reverted after 4 weeks of being live, is proof that phase 2 had major problems and deserved to be completely reverted"???????
-1 -
If BHVR has released the entire phase 2 to live servers, and after 4 weeks people adjusted to it and realized it was a fantastic game update, would you have been happy?
Your 'real question' has a silly premise - if you could know the future result of something with certainty and that it would fail, than obviously you wouldn't take the same course of action. But we don't know the future, and people rarely have a uniform opinion over whether something is good or bad for the game, which means you can't draw such simple absolute scenarios.
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The point is people keep bringing up the fact that the changes were reverted so early, as if that actually mattered.
I’m claiming that it wouldn’t have mattered if the changes got reverted after a few PTB days, or if the changes got reverted one month after they had gone live, that the same people still would have complained about it, and the same people would have said it’s unfair.
-5 -
Just a note about data:
It takes them at least 6 weeks, sometimes 3+ months, to "collect data" on things they tell us about. There is zero chance that a limited PTB that was live for 48 hours gave them anywhere near the data they could use to make this kind of decision. So just from that alone, it's 100% from the outcry.
For comparison, there is, in this exact thread, a discussion about kill rates for Freddy. That rework was 8.5.0 (January 8, 2025), and the data we have is from January through March. The argument is that over 3 months, survivors "didn't have time to adapt" to the Freddy changes and that's the reason his kill rate is astronomically high.
So, why is it then, that if killers appear to be overperforming, it takes months of "adapting" and months of data to come to a conclusion, yet this patch took basically hours to come to the conclusion that players not only couldn't adapt at all, but the data from 48 hours is somehow rock solid now?
I don't buy it for a second. I don't honestly believe that players were "incapable of trying to learn something new", they just didn't want to. That was literally the feedback people gave, in loud voices: "don't fix it, we didn't want to change how we play".
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I’m claiming that it wouldn’t have mattered if the changes got reverted after a few PTB days, or if the changes got reverted one month after they had gone live, that the same people still would have complained about it, and the same people would have said it’s unfair.The thing you miss is that even in that extreme scenario, they might still be correct (though the 'same people' is overall a strawman)
As an example: BHVR has moved on from the days of dark atmospheres and stealth gameplay. Some people on here think they were wrong. It's impossible to know for certain what would have happened if they hadn't changed their mindsets as its a counterfactual argument.
As another example: you frequently complain about them heavily reverting the AFK crows mechanic. The fact that they reverted a substantial portion of it by itself doesn't make you right or wrong in what you wanted changed or whether the first approach was best for the game.
But if they had kept going with the PTB here's some things that would have happened:
1: People would have had more time try out different playstyles to see how much impact the changes had
2: BHVR would have gotten more feedback to make a decision on how to modify their approach
3: If it had conclusively proven a failure to the whole community, like happened with the first try of anti-slug / auto mori, then we wouldn't be wasting time on this topic and could move onto others
4: If it has conclusively proven to actually work, we could have implemented it, then we wouldn't wasting time on this topic and could move onto others.
BHVR went for a big change, they invested a lot of time into the idea, walking it back so quickly before they were able to gather necessary data is a foolish waste of time.
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Survivors refused to adapt to the AFK crows, and instead insisted they should be able to play exactly like they’ve always played, which caused the AFK crows to be nerfed into uselessness.
And I don’t remember seeing you complaining that the survivors should have “adapted” to the AFK crows, and I don’t remember seeing you complaining that the AFK crows wait longer before determining if any nerfs should happen.
They had time to gather data. It’s called a representative sample. You should have learned that concept in school.
BHVR had enough data to know the new chapter would have been a complete disaster if the phase 2 changes went live. Many killers would have boycotted, and the chapter sales would have tanked into the ground.
The phase 2 changes were toxic to the game, because many people would have just stopped playing killer for reals. And we know this is an actual possible scenario, because it literally happened when MMR went live, back when matchmaking was very overtuned. A lot of players just stopped playing killer, and the survivor queue times were absolutely awful.
Post edited by Coffeecrashing on-9
