So... when is the anti-tunnel and anti-slug measures BHVR promised is coming in...?

Maybe read a whole DM, where on my messages that my post about balancing PTB, you always tried to say “I’m not here to discuss balance, I’m discussing the need of this PTB”. So, simply shifting goal post to the field you comfortable to discuss at. Which is never about balancing and always about emotional feedback

So just because I told you can’t really balance concept of anitunnel, it canceled everything I was talking about how unbalanced this PTB was with provided examples? Like haste builds on already fast killers? Poor pop incentives? Hardly working braindead base kit bbq? Heavy nerf of slowdown and shadow buff of genrush? Elusive abuse? Braindead ghostnotes which with combination of lightweight and sprint burst a new rat meta? Simply a death of any way to create pressure for killer aside of raw chases?

Yeah sure. My post wasn’t about idea how to push weird anti proposals. My post was about how unbalanced this concept is from the ground and that the game should focus on solo QoL instead. That’s the point — I was talking about how this concept works just as braindead tag shift meta rather than actual QoL, but it’s straightforwardly hard for you to accept that idea of anti tunnel from the ground is breaking balance in the game

So, “arguing about balancing” is practically impossible because this game is too complicated, but pushing this mechanic live to complicate stuff even more - is a thing we need. Okay. I understood that everything you can’t talk about is impossible to argue because it’s too complicated for you then. So the only thing you are keep doing blaming people they are wrong just because they don’t accept a fundamentals of what you are asking for

It is practically impossible to argue that anti-tunnel is impossible to balance on a conceptual level because DBD is far too complicated and has far too many moving parts to make such a claim and give it any kind of basis.

anti-tunnel has so many possible variations

Where this variations in studio? Because the only thing you were doing was defending already existing PTB concept. I haven’t seen any of other proposal from you. Like actually different variation that could work

If you're not willing to put in the effort to even consider the mere 

possibility

 of a balanced anti-tunnel system, how is your feedback not going to get tainted by that very premise?

It’s impossible. As much as it’s impossible to balance 1 vs 4 gameplay. That’s why.

​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠it’s in psychology when u play alone against team. Reduce quantity to feel less overwhelmed. Even when tunneling was completely removed from many other assym games due to various dev decision to fight with logic, new players always had a tendency to “target”. Because it’ s logical. “I’m alone and it’s 4 of them in different places. I need to do something with it… probably making it 3 vs 1”

Players always choose effectiveness if they don’t handicap and handhold. Saying “u have to play less effective just because other part feels frustrated encountering it” is not making game fair. It’s making the game unintuitive and players brain turned off chase auto pilot machines. Thanks nuh. If u want to focus on pure chase and cancel any sense of logical macro knowledge, than this game shouldn’t be 1 vs 4 from the start. Or macro should be absolutely the same for both sides, which isn’t in this game, because it’s assymetry.

And anti tunnel on PTB didn’t provide at least nerfed version of such effectiveness. It put everything to linier and limited gameplay. Macro gameplay died from killer side in sake of emotional comfort of other, yet this macro didn’t die for survivors. Moreover, it was buffed and more easier to pull at. So nothing was actually compinsated. Hook incentives is a crutch of this system, not an actually working solution.

So far, neither the developers nor the community have been able to figure out how to balance this "anti" system, and at a high level of play, it simply doesn't work. Because you said it yourself—the game is very complex. Matches vary. The anti-system ignores the fact that the game is complex and should be played differently. The anti-system sets a robotic template, ignores the game's previous complexity, and turns everything into a mess, with people playing against mechanics, not against other people. It sounds as pointless as removing all anti-tunnel perks and BTs and pretending the tunnel doesn't exist. Both of these positions are extreme and potentially can’t be balanced. Because they are an extreme version of position. At the very least, the anti-system ignored the fact that the tunnel could have been caused by the survivors themselves. Mistakes were simply ignored, and responsibility for them was placed on the other side. You either forgive mistakes and follow the requested template, or you punish them, but the system then penalizes you.

Again. Do you want an anti-tunnel? It's better to create a different game altogether, where the concept of targeting isn't required at all and isn't effective thinking. Which means anything but 1 vs 4

If DBD failed after 9 years in removing tunnelling, maybe then they need to build gameplay around it then. Which they never did actually. We simply don’t have actual mechanics that considering such play, beside crutch perks and base kit BT. It’s not considering as a game sequence in match and never was.

I feel I don’t need to answer on this nonsense anymore. Because I’ll have to repeat same stuff over and over again.

Why I should adapt to your proposals when you failed to adapt to concepts of tunneling first of all? It’s not me who started this. It’s you complaining people can’t adapt to your ask. But you doing the same, refusing to adapt to tunneling.

You seriously accepting attention to your feedback when ignore others? Well then

It is practically impossible to argue that anti-tunnel is impossible to balance

Quote? Okay. Here above. If you have hard time with reading again and need quotes of stuff you messaged an hour before… Just to get to know - talking that some concept impossible to balance is also arguing about balancing. You can’t be selective in this terms. Everything is possible to be argued in this regard or nothing.

Psychology is not balance. How you 'feel' about things doesn't change the balance of it. Whether you have a 50% winrate that feels good, or you have one that feels bad, both are balanced.

This is assymetrical game. It should be balanced around assymetry. 50% rate should be justified by actual play and not handholding as it was on PTB. Last official stats from devs showed 40/60% average rates. Devs claimed them as what they always wish for their game. Psychology is just a way to explain why it's happening.

What, in those 9 years, have they attempted?

1. Bt base kit.
2. Anti face camp system and Remove of hook grabs to give more opportunities to rescue to prevent tunneling being actually free.
3. The anti-tunnel perks existed since first licences chapter.

If 

YOU

 want to claim that none of them can work, it is up to 

YOU

 to dismantle each and every single one of them. You are the one making the claim, you back it up.

I did in post. You ignored or said “it is not actually true, it's working”, but when I asked for proofs, you firstly backed up and failed to provide it. Because you didn't play PTB or just refused to show gameplay. Anti tunnel works on it's own, doesn't work with balancing.Hens showcase pulled one of the most broken killer as Blight with extremely handicapped survivor team showed. If BROKEN killer can’t deal with this system, not broken killer can’t compete at all. Only if their opponents are acknowledgely worse by skill set in advance of game had broken rgn. After this they put other problematic killer post rework as Clown. No chances. Person on killer was as experienced as his opponents. So again - it is players playing against system and not against players, pushing broken stuff more forward. If you are claiming that anti tunnel can be balanced, it's your duty to prove it. Which you ultimately failed. Create a custom game in future PTB, provide balancing for match, select players of the same level. After this you’ll be able to prove it can be balanced at least in ideal sterile condition. Saying “base kit pop is enough” isn't a proof of this system to work, especially when people explain why. Hens gameplay showecase proved simply better than this. Many videos proved it better.

I’ll ask again - why this system have to exist beside just emotional demand. And why this demand is healthy and prevalent one. And why we pretending it’s people false they refuse to adapt to changes, while the only reason this PTB was proposed is some people failing to adapt to tunneling. “Adapt” argument doesn't work here because backfires.

where some players can manage an 80-90% kill-rate. 

But same with survivors. I mean… looking at people I’m acknowledged with or it's their friends.

I have 50/70 proportion as survivor/killer, despite playing solo q and not S tier killer. The proportion of 20% + keeping as same in both cases. And I don’t slug for 4k, and don’t farm my teammates. I don't bring meta every match.

I don’t find reasonable to balance game around extremes. It's like current pallet update that just doubled amount of them. Is it reasonable? In some sense yes, because S tier killers more in demand. Is it actually fair or solve issue of dead zones/disproportionate play? No. In general, pallet density provoked more people to play S tier or sweat, and made general experience worse.

If average rate is what devs were aiming for, then it’s no need in changing fundamentals. I don't deny tunneling need adjustment. Solo need more tools for dealing with it. Showing hook stages for killer was unnecessary from the start. Maybe hiding phase progress so killer wouldn't feel the urgent need to camp until struggle phase will hit, and for doing this they actually should heavily focus on it, less paying attention to other stuff. And S tier killers need to be seriously addressed - they should be have build up power concept instead or having great punishment in some sence, like Nurse suffering from blindness after blink to prevent excessive aura read abuse or greater cooldown of tokens for Blight from the start of the game, so he need to hook more for getting less excessive cooldown.

No one denies here tunnelling can be adjusted. It's more about should it be removed completely as effective approach. I still don't see any valid reason beside sentiment.

Another reason of inflated rates for some people is absence of SBMM or weird win conditions. Like killer can do 2 kills only every match yet keep 50% killrate. Yet from game perspective it would rather should count as tie for both sides and don’t influence on overall win rate. We have big gaps between players. Yet tunnelling isn't the thing that defines this gap. It's not the thing that actual distort stats. Stats gathering from the start is build in rather unreliable method and don't always reflect their actual skill

So you even have less signals and facts to justify specific changes, but justifies it anyway or trying to do so because in theory people silent and then tilted?

That was my point from the start - you can’t justify changes to the game only pure by emotional demand. Because some people may be silent, or can be too loud. You can’t create actual definitive to speak of actual majority, so if you trying to appellate to some changes, you should stop using arguments about burn out, tilt, emotional feelings. Until you wouldn’t be able to somehow proof actual majority opinion. Which is directly impossible in this game. Everyone experiences burnout one way or another, and for different reasons. You have to bring arguments beside it and argue about their validity. Not to cling to that “but what people feel”. Many people even not realising why exactly they experience specific emotions.

You never know why and what they actually feel. There's no point in playing the hero here and trying to present your desires for change as "the common good," especially when it’s a lack of compromise and you are focused solely on satisfying a very specific sentiment.

If people actually had influence on me, than I had to stop to play long time ago (which didn't happen), so it's another attempt presenting wishful thinking as reality. I understand why you may think like this, but I’m calling straight — no, it is not what I’m actually thinking. And I explained why many times. My point is that I don't listen to loud voices and prefer to value people in the community when they've proven that their position is justified by something other than an inability to emotionally cope with the situation in the game. People with actual experience in this game would likely to be silent not because they tilted only. But just maybe because they realise you can’t build whole sentiment around emotions only. It's potential thing, or potentially not. Nothing really can point on 100% truth.

So Stop. Speaking. For other people. Especially when you complain on some content creator brainwashing. The only thing that actually happening here is you and me defending specific vision of the game. If you want it to defend, bring something else. Not only “people feel so”. My first post under this thread is literally about this. Even if it was addressed to other personal initially. I told this person that focusing only on feedback as arguments is initially bad idea, because it plays along to emotion x emotion fight, rather than actually meaningful discussion. Seems I have to repeat same stuff again.

Stop making it evolve around emotions, because when you do like this, you heavily neglect emotions of others. And you consciously putting other person in unfavourable position, because you are pretty acknowledged that this person can’t argue for emotions. No one can and have right to because it's subjectivity and people can provide different conclusions from same initial. It's ineffective way to develop discussions. It's just a way to validate position when you don’t have other tools.

It's just a straight goal shift here, and I don’t feel any sense in this dialogue anymore. Because this is a return to the same point where my first post here started. And I’m pretty sure, next posts will force to repeat same stuff but in another wrap up from both sides.

But okay, let's talk about the game, and about tunnelling. You keep mentioning these good survivor players but I can hop on a killer I've never played as and get a 4k against decent players right now, even with no knowledge of that killer, if I hard tunnel someone out at 5 gens. It's too easy. The expectation is for survivors to become not just fantastic players, but fantastic team players (and with little resources to do so in soloq), just to counter even mid to low opponents. The power balance is off because of this tactic.

But is it actually so? Tunnelling is about capitalising mistakes. Solo Q just tends to make mistakes more and they are less forgiving. And it’s how it's supposed to work, but it doesn't mean they deserve handholding and turn of their mistakes as punishment for killer if they decide to capitalize it.

It doesn't mean every game should evolve around high play. And it doesn't in this game. Nothing prevents people from trying out different builds, or meme around. But artificial mechanics like busted S tier, new pallet density heavily backfire and give people tools they don't actually deserve. Mobility on killers forgiving macro mistakes. Spammable power forgets micro mistakes. Genrush perk forgets poor efficiency from the start. 4 chase build forgets the lack of clean movements. But you can genrush and fail because you were too greedy. You can tunnel and lose because we're holding too long a chase and the survivors capitalised mistake. So is tunnelling a problem here, or people getting frustrated that the other side can heavily punish for misplay or mistake? And because it's a 1 vs 4 thing, if one survivor made a mistake, everyone has to share responsibility for it.

So it doesn't have a real reason to scrap it from the ground. Anti-tunnel PTB wasn’t about helping QoL. It wasn’t about fixing the issues I mentioned before. Moreover, it gifted haste power creep to killers like Spirit, Clown, Springtrap, providing actually cheesy gameplay, because you don't need to use your brain a lot moving with additional haste, making every first hit free. While for actually poor mobility killers it wasn't enough most of the time. Making base kit DS also does not solve every one of those issues, everything that includes “anti” and provides so much for free as anti-tunnel does it would likely be just a new game mechanic that plays the game instead of the player. Perks and powers are already doing this on a great level, and you are just suggesting adding another layer to this. Its initial mechanics are broken, not the way people play the game. As I have told and will continue to claim, anti-tunnel is an extreme change of meta in tag war and indulging specific sentiment. If it's the initial reason to bypass balancing, then you can’t balance it.

You don't need to be a fantastic player to avoid or try to counterplay stuff like tunnelling. Moreover, you can play in a way that makes tunnelling a desperate move or turns out to be a killer mistake and capitalise on it. You don’t need to have voice chat to play decently in a team. Your team have to consist of the same level and you should have some resemblance to comms and that's enough to cover the majority of cases. I’m literally playing solo Q myself. My movements aren't clear, I don't bring a full meta package, yet nothing prevented me from getting a solid 50% ER which is already above what devs are aiming for the average player. So as much as you can say you can comfortably play without tunnelling, as much as I can say it's not an unmanageable thing.

If a player is extremely casual, they shouldn’t expect average rates. Because SBMM doesn't work in this game and you would likely be put in a place with a more experienced person or some cursed region and busted mechanics hell. Casual players should ask for more opportunities to play casually rather than asking for hand hand-holding mechanism against other players just because they handicap themselves and expect others to do the same.

If top cap players in more sterile conditions like the same skill set, no repetitive perks showing killer can’t function well without tunnelling, then it's true. Do you like it or not, but their showcases have more validity for consideration because they at least try to manage balancing in custom while ordinary matches can’t do this more cleanly. They are providing more cold facts.

Do u wish to balance the game, or balance the game around being broken? It's a huge difference. If you're asking for the last one, I’m not sharing your principle.

When this game has more “sterility” in a play, maybe it would be an opportunity to actually prove that you can balance anti-tunnel PTB around. Right now the only argument is literally:

“But I can play without it”

And I can play with it as a survivor. Wow. So who is right?

“But many people wish for it”

And many people don't. Wow again, who are you gonna prioritise then?

It's impossible to present such argumentation objectively. They are still about emotional sentiment.