Why don't you mention why killer players uninstall the game?

This one's on the survey list, though.

Oh, it's not accusatory, just contextualising it within the topic, is all.

You're good!

No offense but if you still noticeably struggle after 1k hours then you always will.

Yeah, I really don’t think you understand how data collection works at all.

If “the game lost its horror feel” ended up being a top choice, BHVR could have released a more focused survey with in-depth questions, and potentially free-text responses. And if that survey isn’t enough, they could conduct interviews to have conversations with people about this topic.

But saying “they don’t have any way to gather info”, just shows you don’t understand how this works at all.

they literally give you free escape during end game lol back then it was impossible to do without borrowed time. Why do you still get bt and haste for free during endgame I’ll never know.

Yeah, I really don’t think you understand how data collection works at all.

Given this and prior discussions, right back at you.

If “the game lost its horror feel” ended up being a top choice, BHVR could have released a more focused survey with in-depth questions, and potentially free-text responses. 

You're presuming that this survey is the starting point of the data collection. They have ten years of player feedback, surveys, fog whisperers, these forums, etc. The options that are listed might very well be the more focused survey you are discussing.

But saying “they don’t have any way to gather info”, just shows you don’t understand how this works at all.

I do understand what it means to misquote someone by leaving out context to misrepresent their understanding of an issue.

You leave out how I say "on people leaving the game". Sure, they have lots of other surveys and resources about player opinion and nowhere have they ever said those are irrelevant or that the exit survey is the only thing, or even the primary thing, they use to make game decisions. But an exit survey is meant to focus on the issues that actually caused a player to quit the game.

Killers complaining like they havent gotten the most changes the last couple years while survivors have been getting toned down. this is the kind of "hand holding" the devs are talking about, L2P killer instead of getting carried by slow down perks and/or tunnel/camping.

and did you forget they are changing Syringe/Styptic.

but there are options where for survivors they can say due to tunneling or camping etc where's the killer options ie gen effeincy or SWF for example

So please dont tell me balance issues arent the focus 

But those aren't balance questions. They aren't asking if tunneling is balanced, they are asking if its a reason people quit.

For things like gen efficiency, they have data on overall kill rates. If a person is saying they think gens are too fast, but the kill rates are where BHVR wants them, what do they do with that? Broadly any balance questions that boils down to 'I feel my preferred side is too hard' isn't very meaningful.

Now they could ask whether the overall game feels too fast or too slow, which would be a question that applies to both sides, but there's no way to know for certain if they haven't investigated that or if its a common issue at all.

in the stream the devs mentioned that the reason they are doing these changes is the fact its the most uninstall reason which we all know is bad data as there is no killer related options to give a clear picture on the actual game state

This is coming at it like the exit survey is a contest: whichever issue gets selected the most we change!

Except:

1: Tunneling and camping have been discussed for a long time. They've taken actions to address them in the past. They'll probably take more actions to address them in the future even if this PTB goes through. They are giving this as backing of it being an issue.

2: Even if we presume they are missing an issue causing players to quit, that doesn't negate all the players who selected tunneling. So the worst case scenario is that they are missing something, but they still have lots of players quitting selecting tunneling as their reason.

3: They fix plenty of issues that aren't on the survey. OTR just got changed on arguments about weaponization, something killers have been arguing for. The exit survey is not the be all / end all of BHVR decision making.

The fact you are still defending that killer players who leave shouldnt get a chance to explain their reason clearly via check boxes astound me how can we get the game to a healthier place if you keep ignoring one side of the community and dismiss their valid concerns or not give them a clear fair chance to explain why they uninstall the game

1: The fact that so many people seem to think the community is just killers and survivors astounds me. Most people play both sides.

2: No one is ignoring one side of the community. See above: lots of issues get addressed that aren't on this particular survey.

3: The demand for checkboxes doesn't make sense. Yes, people tend to fill out checkboxes more than free fill responses. But if there were a lot of killer players quitting and even some of them were taking the time to write down an answer, it would be easy to notice a trend and make it a check box.

4: Why not add an option to ask if they quit because of lack of diverse survivors? Or an option about the cosmetics feeling too silly? Or finding the moris too gory or not gory enough? There's an endless number of possibilities that could be added, but at some point you need to draw a line to what your data actually indicates are the main reasons.

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I suspect they will add a killer sided option to the exit survey if for no other reason than PR. It's certainly possible that there is a reason for quitting they are missing something with the survey, that's always the risk of a survey, too much and you dilute the chance of getting answers, too little and you miss possible reasons. But there's no inherent need to presume its a both sides issue if their other data is indicating its not a problem or that the exit survey should be so heavily approached in an us vs them setup.

Not beating the 'I just don't want survivors to even be able to complain about tunnelling' allegations.

Nope. That isn’t going to work either.

Sometimes I wish I just had the confidence to declare things without actually addressing the points the other person made.

Exit surveys are meant to focus on the issues that actually causes a player to quit a game, but they can’t do that if the survey choices are rigged towards one side of the game.

You're just skipping everything about other data sources they might have because it disproves your argument. There are an endless number of possibilities that might cause a player to quit a game. Any set of options will inherently omit some possibilities and too many possibilities will harm the value of the survey.

People that uninstalled because they think the killer role is unfun, deserve to have dedicated choices in the survey for the most probable reasons why they think the killer role is unfun.

Why is this group more deserving than people who uninstall because of cosmetic options, or general game length, or dislike the music, or don't think their favorite license is adequately represented, or whatever reason?

Or more deserving than survivors who quit because they hate a certain killer, or they don't like doing gens, or they hate stealth killers, or they don't think there is enough item variety?

And how exactly is it going to make the killer player feel better if a reason is included for killers but it isn't their own?

When there's a survey that asks why someone uninstalled and it gives you a bunch of options and a box to fill in whatever you want and it's considered 'terribly killer-sided' because tunnelling is on the list as an issue, that's what it comes down to.

🍿

You're basically trying to say that no one can possibly make a good survey that cares about both sides of the game, because it involves an "endless number of possibilities".

Nope, that's not going to work either.

This is supposed to be an exit survey, which means it's supposed to apply to everyone that is exiting, regardless of their favorite role.

To be fair, BHVR even tried deleting the endgame altogether with the odds even further stacked against Survivor with the Last Man Standing mechanic. I genuinely get the feeling they don't want the gates anymore but they won't actually remove them.

Please vote which subject made you quit school.

1.Sport

2. Art

3. Biologie

After 10000 feedbacks the wishes of the people have been heard. MATH is the most liked school subject of all time since no one has a problem with it.

Yeah doesn´t sound right.

But it's also an inaccurate analogy because in reality, the survey was

1. Sports
2. Art
3. Biology
4. Other, I.E.: [Enter here]

And now the people that really hate math are getting upset because almost no one entered Math and a lot of other people said Sports.

But the survey has another misleading step and this is the ratio of survivor and killers. If all killer players on this world would decide to quit because ("Stupid reason or the whole world will try to argument why it is balanced") Survivors grunts of pain are not satisfing enough and all survivors on this world would quit because ("stupid reason") Weskers Hairs isn´t fluffy enough the survivors would win by 4 to 1 regardless.

This assumes players fall neatly into the two categories with no overlap, which is another pain point with this outrage over the survey:

There will be killer players that still quit over excessive tunnelling, just because they might play survivor too and that experience is bad enough to push them out.

So if a Killer stops playing and a SWF would stop playing because one friend stopped the scale is tipped heavyly into the favor of survivors.

Here's the catch, though: If a Swiffer of four all quit because one of them dislikes tunnelling that much, then the survey would result in one person saying 'excessive tunnelling' and the other three saying 'friend quit'.

So if this were a key concern, the top issue wouldn't be 'excessive tunnelling', it'd be 'friend quit'. But tunnelling was the top concern.

Also, there's nothing stopping someone on their way out because a friend quit from also answering 'I also quit because of rampant hook denial'.

Forums decided to delete my draft :)

Thanks for your detailed response, I can't say I fully agree with all the points you're making but I'm glad we can at least have a polite discussion about this. My takeaway from all this:

I don't necessarily agree that including killer-specific complaints, some of which have been repeatedly echoed over the years (gen speeds, inherent power of SWF, even something more general like map balance) would constitute a "mind-reading competition". Arguing that survivors, at large, communicate their complaints more eloquently than Killers - well, I suppose one is entitled to their own opinion. I've seen evidence to the contrary, though I agree that tunnelling, slugging and camping are topics structurally brought up both here and on other forums. A similar thing could be said for gen speeds, SWF power discrepancy and map balance.

This is an awful lot of manufactured outcry over one, single line:

Excessive tunneling and camping.

Which says nothing about which side of the tunneling and camping you're on. Especially since you can pick other options, like "gameplay is repetitive".

People are deliberately reading it as

"[I'm tired of my opponent choosing] excessive tunneling and camping"

But we've also heard from killers for years now that people (claim to) also feel:

"[I'm tired of feeling I have to choose] excessive tunneling and camping"

It's already written as a "survivor" or "killer" line.

People have been claiming they feel forced to tunnel for years, which is another way of reading this line (unless you're just trying to spin it as dev bias).

So, imo, this problem is either looking for outrage, which is status quo for the people starting the fire here, or people have been lying about "being forced to tunnel". Both options are being disingenuous.

This is supposed to be an exit survey, which means it's supposed to apply to everyone that is exiting, regardless of their favorite role.

Your argument is circular.

You say it should apply to everyone.

I point out that can't happen. Inevitably some people will be excluded.

You then argue I'm saying no good survey can be done.

I respond, of course it can, you use your existing data to narrow the survey.

You then say it should apply to everyone, which brings us back to point 1 without you having actually responded to an argument.

It's the wanting to have your cake and eat it to problem.

Arguing that survivors, at large, communicate their complaints more eloquently than Killers - well, I suppose one is entitled to their own opinion.

Oh, I didn't say 'eloquently'.

But someone posting a ragewall complaining about tunnelling is still communicating their problem.

Someone posting a ragewall about how BHVR never listens to their complaints is not actually communicating the complaint they expect BHVR to listen to.

(gen speeds, inherent power of SWF, even something more general like map balance)

Then there's the issue that you have to put the entire poll into context. Some issues aren't going to be fixable (You can't nerf swiffer, you can't make gens slower), and some issues are already on the priority list (Map balance) and don't need to be polled again.

Then there's also the problem of stats cutting in again, because arguments about balance have to be put into perspective. If the community is adamant that a certain map is busted OP absolutely 100% survivor-sided and the stats show that that map's kill rate is a cut higher than the rest, what are BHVR gonna do? Come out and say 'we saw the poll, but you're all objectively wrong'?

The survey had survivor-sided results because the survey was rigged to be survivor-sided.

If the killer-sided options were directly in the survey, then the results could have showed that both sides of the game were having issues, and both sides need to be addressed.

And that’s the real actual reason why a lot of people are against the surveys being fair for both sides of the game. If the surveys were actually fair for both sides of the game, then it might result in less time spent making survivor-sided changes to the game, and more time fixing issues on both sides of the game.

BHVR has been bending over backwards for Killers, so if you're correct about the survey being "rigged" or "Survivor-sided", this is exactly why.

I've been on the internet too long, sorry for being snappy

Requiring 10k hours to be able to win is a Survivor thing, so i've no idea who you're gaslighting. It's survivor players who have to learn every map, play against every killer, learn every perk, adapt to every killer playstyle and teammate, etc.

I introduced my boyfriend to the game and with 100 hours he still can't loop to save his life. Meanwhile any new killer can play 10 hours as Huntress and git gud enough to get a 4k every match, as killers don't need to learn to play "against every character", they don't need to learn how to loop every tile, or how every map works, or where to find gens, etc.