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SBMM will never be effective in this game as long as match format is asymmetrical

SkeletalElite
SkeletalElite Member Posts: 2,889
edited November 19 in General Discussions

The fact that you and your opponent are playing two different games means there is no way to directly measure your skill against your opponents in a fair manner.

The only way SBMM will ever become effective is if the match format of dead by daylight were to change such that it were teams of 5 where each team had 1 killer and you played 2 simultaneous seperate matches on the exact same map and the team that wins is the one with the better performance in those 2 matches in order to make the comparison symmetrical.

I'm not sure that's necessarily a good idea, but without it this game will never have good matchmaking.

Comments

  • Pizzaman
    Pizzaman Member Posts: 544
    edited November 19

    Just because it's an asymmetrical game does not mean you can't use metrics to try and measure skill and then match players without a big skillgap. It just isn't as easy as in a symmetrical game. Currently "skill" is measured by the outcome of a trial, instead of taking the plenty events into consideration that happen during a trial, that's where changes to skill measurement could begin (which then would be utilized by SBMM).

  • Leon_van_Straken
    Leon_van_Straken Member Posts: 364

    The big problem is… BHVR seems to have no clue what "skilled" is. Something in my brain wants me to compare DbD to an hockey match but not this time.

    Tell me of these examples what is the most skilled player.

    Survivor Side:

    Survivor 1: Loops Killer for 1 gen per hook stage. (3 gens pop when he dies), Goes for unhooks and pick ups. 40%escape rate.

    Survivor 2: Typical Sable main, chases never going long. Maybe 20 seconds, but pulls the Killer far away from the Gens which are made. First to run to unhooks and pick ups, because full healing build. 35% escape rate.

    Survivor 3: Cracked Ace, loops Killer for 3-5 gens everygame if he gets chased, completly ignores teammates on hook or on the ground. leaves when gates are open. 50% escape rate.

    Survivor 4: does no gens at all. medicore in chases, but cracked at saves, 2-4 flashlight saves per game, goes always for the unhook in endgame but dies alot for this., 25% escape rate.

    Survivor 5: Hiding most of the match, plays perks like sole Survivor and Wake up, waiting for others to die and opens gate and leaves. 50% escape rate.

    Killer Side:

    Killer 1: Sweaty Nurse, goes for 4 Slug at 5 gens, Kill rate 70%

    Killer 2: Cracked Billy who tries to curve every single loop but loses chases for this which could be finished by M1 Kill rate 45%

    Killer 3: Afk Myers standing still whole game. Waits for cocky Survivors in end game with noed and bloodwarden, kill rate 50%

    Killer 4: Friendly but cracked Huntress, hits every impossible shot, goes for 8 hooks but lets all survivors escape. kill rate 20%

    Killer 5: Sweaty Trapper, goes for 4 Slug at 5 gens, Kill rate 70%

    And now tell me with a straight face. "This is easy to rank and to make a programm to find fair matches"

  • DragonMasterDarren
    DragonMasterDarren Member Posts: 3,076

    No it actually could work pretty well

    For Killer it’s really simple, the more hooks you get and the more Survivors you kill the more MMR you gain, you could also add stuff like how fast your chases are, how well you kept gens stalled, etc.

    For Survivor it’s also fairly simple, how long did you keep the Killer busy in chase, how many heals did you provide for your team, how many gens did you do, etc.

    And also showing people their MMR and how playing in certain ways affects it, that would also be really nice.

    However, the current MMR system doesn’t factor in any of this, for Killer it only factors in kills and for Survivor it only factors in escapes, its purpose is to get people into matches faster, not accurately put people of similar skill levels together, that’s why everyone complains about it, it’s a random number generator wearing the skin of a SBMM system.

  • Leon_van_Straken
    Leon_van_Straken Member Posts: 364

    Maybe I am missing something but it is not that easy.

    A twelve hook Trapper is way more impressive than a twelve hook blight and needs much more Skill.

    And when Survivor is so easy answer me the following questions.

    If you get not chased by a Killer cause you are his Play with your food stacks, you will lose MMR?

    If all Survivors get unhooked and healed before you reach them because you have a dedicated healer you lose MMR?

    If you get chased whole game by the Killer and do no gens and no heal… you lose MMR?

    The problem I wanted to show is that you can´t give numbers to these actions at all.

    I said in some other discussions that many players lost the reality what skilled chases are and I will say it again. Is only a multible Gen chase skilled? Nope chasing for a single Gen is good enough. If any Survivor can pull of a 1 gen chase the Survivors win the match.

    Now tell me what is more impressive? 5 Gen chase vs Trapper or vs Nurse?

    So you should get more MMR if you loop a Nurse better but if the Nurse is a baby Killer and theTrapper is pro all changes.

    It is not as easy as you think.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,483

    I don't know that your examples here really prove much, definitely on the killer end. Tackling that one first, the question that needs to be asked is "how should a matchmaker treat these players", and we've got some fairly clear answers for most of them.

    Killers one and five, the sweaty Nurse and the sweaty Trapper, are trying very hard to win with multiple shortcuts. A matchmaker must assume reasonable balance, so it must assume those shortcuts get easier to deal with higher up the skill curve, so those players should climb until they face proper resistance for their tactics. This is what should happen with the current system (setting aside situations where the matching portion hiccups, anyway), so no issues there.

    Killer two, our cracked Billy, clearly wants to practice their power more than they want to outright win, and their results reflect that. A player like that should be able to maintain a reasonably stable position in the matchmaker but they are ultimately getting subpar results, so a slow decline until they actually improve or level out would be appropriate. Again, that's what should happen here.

    Killer three, the memeing Myers, has basically the same argument to be made, save for that they care about memeing around more than winning. Their results reflect a stable position, so they'll just keep trucking on. Annoying for people who face it sometimes, sure, but that'd be the case wherever in the matchmaker they land.

    Killer four is the biggest potential outlier, but at a certain point, you have to accept that players who lose on purpose will get to lower their matchmaking level. Trying to stop this would be a fool's errand, even if a few reasonable safeguards could be put in place, hypothetically.
    At least our example here is someone who lets the players go, so not too disruptive to the ecosystem, so to speak.

    For survivor, sure, it's a bit messier… but they're all engaging with a clear playstyle that gives them clear results. Sable will drop until they can improve in chase, and survivor 4 will continue to drop because they're just not really contributing much, but that's mostly appropriate- the thing being measured is how consistently they can win the game and therefore what kind of resistance they'd put up to the opponent, and none of these examples really show someone who's slipping through the cracks in either direction.
    Sure, the last example is an annoying player, but that's not a matchmaker problem- in this example they aren't climbing, they're just sitting at a stable position.

    I could see survivor 4 maybe being an outlier, but at a certain point you should be expected to engage with the basic objective progression and the basic gameplay loop before being considered skilled even if we move to only measuring performance in one game, right?

  • THE_Crazy_Hyena
    THE_Crazy_Hyena Member Posts: 1,270

    To be perfectly fair, it used to be better in the past, when ranks were still in the game.
    Match queueing took about the same amount of time it does today, even back when crossplay wasn't a thing.

    Also, looking at @jesterkind 's comment, I do agree on what they are pointing out.
    Ideally, the matchmaking should take more than kill/escape rates into account. Emblems could also tell a good story. A player that is constantly getting gold or iridescent emblems over all 4 categories should definitely get matched with better opponents, until they level out.

  • Rokku_Rorru
    Rokku_Rorru Member Posts: 2,786

    I prefer'd the emblem matchmaking, contribution based matchmaking like this without a cap would probably do much more than Escapes/Kills. People would be playing against players who play more efficiently for points and get out/sacrifice, and be punished for tunneling/camping and genrushing/avoiding chase too much.

    that way the toxic playstyles stay in the middle, and those who play fair go to the top, and people have to literally outright do nothing on purpose to fall down/die early.

    but that's just me being idealistic it probably wont work like that

  • Crowman
    Crowman Member Posts: 10,089

    The main problem with SBMM is not that the game is an asymm. It's that BHVR focuses on fast matchmaking which undermines the whole point of SBMM. You can't have both fast and accurate matchmaking.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 3,241

    I like how many different reasons people came up with to highlight the problems with matchmaking in DbD.

    Anyway, I'll throw on a couple:

    Having one side get MMR increasing events ~60% of the time, and the other ~40% of the time. This could balance out, but it creates more complexity.

    Having one side with unclear win conditions - play as a team, or play for yourself, BHVR is cool with both, but the MMR system only likes one.

  • THE_Crazy_Hyena
    THE_Crazy_Hyena Member Posts: 1,270

    Having one side with unclear win conditions - play as a team, or play for yourself, BHVR is cool with both, but the MMR system only likes one.

    This is probably why survivor MMR should be team-based instead of individual, or at least take an average of the team into account when matchmaking, so that you get a more accurate opponent.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 3,241

    I think that's generally what they should do (though average survivors MMR is tough, if you had hypothetical MMRs of a 9//8/8/3 hitting a 7 killer, the 3 is likely to drag the survivors down way more than the other survivors outranking the killer).

    I've always thought the idea of designing a VS game without a win condition a fool's errand, but have to admit DbD has been incredibly successful with that formula. I think BHVR wants to keep the idea that sometimes the game will be a 4 person SWF going for a 3 out, and sometimes 4 solos each playing for themselves, so balance is always going to be an issue (and that they prize long term balance over individual trials). I think awarding MMR via overall team result would help, but do worry this could create an unforgiving low MMR hell where players who aren't very good are trapped with rats as teammates.

  • SkeletalElite
    SkeletalElite Member Posts: 2,889
    edited November 21

    But you and your opponent are playing a completly different game. This is the problem. You can use metrics to determine the likelyhood that a survivor or killer will win or lose and even do it effectively but then the problem is the game becomes more "balance based matchmaking" than "skill based matchmaking." How can you take 1 survivor put them against a killer who is playing two completely different games essentially, and say that one is better than the other. Absolutely nothing in their skill sets are applicable to each other than the fact that knowing how one plays can make you predict the other better, but beyond that the way a survivor runs and the way a killer chases and the decisions survivors make vs those that killer make is completly different. You can't truly say that one player is more skillful than the other. The system simply matched them based on an equal probability to win, but it could very well be that one player is MUCH better than the other but the other player's role is generally much stronger and doesn't require as much skill to win. This issue is made worse by significant differences in killer balance with the best killers being in a whole different world than the worst killers.

    If you take two teams of survivors and compare their performances on the same map against the same killer controlled by a player of similar skill level and give the win to the killer + survivor team with the best performance of the two you make everything symmetrical and can definitively say that one team out skilled the other in a fair match.

    In order for a SBMM system to effectively measure skill, the actual balance of the game has to be fair, which is effectively impossible become the game is asymmetrical and so there is no such thing as perfectly fair, by changing the match format to compare survivors vs other survivors we can have that symmetry that makes it actually possible to measure skill and not balance and at the same time it would reduce toxicity by reducing the us vs them mentality since your team always includes a killer.

    If implemented correctly it wouldn't even have a significant impact on matchmaking times. When queueing you would set each killer you own and the survivor role to a level of priority divided between: Never, Low priority, Medium Priority, High Priority, Very High Priority.

    The game would look for a team of similar skill level while trying to give as many people their highest priorty preferences as possible while matchmaking within acceptable skill ranges. Matchmaking times would not be poor because on a stack of 5 you could easily have each of the 5 players having several killers they like to play. Even if every player on your team perfers survivor, if they have even have 2 unique killers each that they don't mind playing your 5 stack has 10 different killers you can match as.

    Edit: and this is also has an additional benefit. Survivor vs killer balance suddenly matters much less. A killer could be completely overpowered and you can still win because the match becomes about, did I do better than the survivors Im being compared to in the same situation. This makes it okay for killers to have different balance and the devs can simply focus on killers being fun to face and play. It doesn't matter that its unbalanced if the match format makes the game balance itself.