9.4 ptb better have a tweaked version of the punishment/reward anti tunnel system tested in 9.2
I know the devs said it feels "hand holdy" or whatever, but between all the big content creators who have said they think that was the way to go (Scott Jund, Otzdarva, OhTofu, SpooknJukes, etc) I think it's fair to say that implementing such a system and tweaking the activation conditions (e.g. activates on a kill without 4-5 hooks instead of 6) would be a solid way of admitting they were out of touch while trying to address both the things that make Killers feel they need to tunnel and the things that make seeing your teammate tunneled as Survivor particularly helpless.
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Gens are still done too damn fast on their own and there's no cap on how a toolbox and gen perks can stack.
Until this is addressed there's nothing that can be done to make tunneling less appealing.
If you're not a killer player like Lilith Omen 8 hooking before killing any surv is basically playing/asking to lose.-5 -
There will always be something that people can point to and say "you're not allowed to address tunneling until you address this." At some point we need to realize that delaying an issue for side A cannot constantly take the back seat to issues for side B. You change both at once, and then continue to make adjustments as needed. By all means, also implement changes to toolboxes. Don't pretend killer players and their complaints are ontologically more important than survivor players and that all killer players wants must be met before survivor players get anything for the most persistent complaint their side has seen over the entire history of the game
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Gen rushing and tunneling should indeed be addressed at the same time.
Thing is this is the 2nd try to just fix one side instead of both at the same time.-6 -
Yes, But 4 hooks is too low. I think 5 is the way to go. They can balance more easily from there. Im tired of the tunnel a guy out meta.
if anything the current meta is a lot more handholdy. The best play in almost every match is to take one guy out immediately.-2 -
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I think if they do the punishment thing again it needs to be 3 hooks only and a kill (4 at most) and I don't think the punishments should be permanent, nor nearly as hard as they were. And also Anti Tunnel punishments need to turn off at 1-2 gens left, not Endgame..
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They could balance gen speed perks in the same patch they add the anti-tunnel. TBH, they are unhealthy even in the current meta.
Its very unfortunate that the most effective strat against gen builds are tunneling, slugging and camping, because either you are forced to hard tunnel or just accept the loss.
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THIS!
THANK YOU! S2
There's still hope.-5 -
I'd say focusing on gens is how a coordinated team can counter tunneling, not necessarily the other way around. If I'm playing survivor and I notice the killer is hyper-focused on another survivor then that signals to me that I'm free to do even the most unsafe of gens. What do I have to be cautious about - the killer obviously doesn't care about me at that point.
Tunneling easily results in as many 1Ks as it does 4Ks. I don't know why killers cling to it as if it's some clutch play they need to keep in their arsenal.
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This exactly.
What exactly do killers think the other 2-3 survivors are doing while the killer is "tunneling"? They aren't going to patiently wait their turn, or, despite what people seem to want, fall apart, panic, and swarm the hook with no idea what to do (which somehow also gets complained about).
They're doing gens. For free.
Tunneling either works, and wins someone the game almost immediately, or it doesn't work, and the killer comes to the forums to complain about gen speeds.
Coincidentally, it tends to "work" when the chases are short with the first person found, and it fails when chases take too long. So it specifically isn't "choosing the weak link", because it's largely RNG as to who you are finding first. It's more "chasing the moving things in front of you until it dies" and hoping you find someone who is worse than you at chase or in a dead zone of the map.
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I'm talking about gen speed builds, like Hyperfocus + Stake Out + Built to Last + Deja Vu/other perks with a Commodious toolbox. A person with this build does a gen 2x faster than a normal survivor. If they are not forced to be in chase everytime possible they can end the gens much faster than would be reasonable in a normal match.
Any build focused on gens can be countered by tunneling and slugging, mostly, since the person has no chase perks or anti-tunnel perks.
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I mean some kind of anti gen momentum baseline would go a long way with the fresh hook incentives, that's why pain res is so popular.
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Are they also going to back down and pull the plug on everything like they did this time?
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I hate the double standard.
Survivors hate tunnelling because the game lasts 5 minutes for them. Killers hate genrush because the game lasts 5 minutes for them.
And sudden tunnelling is a problem, but genrush isn't.
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I prefer a basekit Pain Res for rotating hooks which would do more or less regression depending of the killer you're playing.
What you suggest seems quite the crap we currently have for 2v8 that survs are abusing AF RN.-1 -
THIS!
Gen rushing is never addressed.
Maybe it's because the bias BHVR has for survs (that we now have a nice quantity of proofs)? I don't know. I may be going crazy with my tinfoil hat.-2 -
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Sorry that's what I'm saying, Pain res baseline essentially coz that in itself is a fresh hook incentive no?
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I also want to see the original idea come back in some way. A bold move needs to happen to shake this game up.
People keep talking about these gen rush builds as though they're super common. I almost never see builds fully dedicated to gens. It's usually just Resi or Deja Vu. I see hard tunneling way more than I see full gen builds.
But okay, we nerf gen perks and raise gen times. Guess what? Tunneling stays because now Exhaustion is the problem. Nerf those? Now it's second chance. The goal post moves endlessly. Eventually something has to be done to make things change.
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This is the clip that people are mad about? Seriously? I saw people crucifying them on social media and I thought it must have been some really out of touch dev taunting killer mains, but now that I've actually seen it you guys can't be serious.
It's so clear to me that he simply did not, in that moment, get the full message. He was supposed to hear "everyone is trying to tell you that the reason people are slugged so much is the overabundance of pallets." However, the words he was told were "Everyone is saying pallets." That's it, no additional context
It's so clear to me, and frankly anyone who occasionally has to do presentations for work, that he's trying to juggle remembering all of his notes for this two hour long livestream and just failed to parse 100% of the context of that one offhand comment. I mean it doesn't look great, but come ON
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spawn logic was changed recently to group survivors up at the beginning, specifically because survivors starting the game spread out helped them gen rush more effectively. saying "gen rushing is never addressed" is just flat out wrong.
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I have to somewhat agree with the killer side on this.
Gen speeds can be incredibly high with the right set of perks and toolbox loadouts.
If you don't believe me, try running Bardic, Hyperfocus, Built to Last and Stake Out, with a Commodious Toolbox, kitted out with both charge add-ons. You'd be surprised to how fast the gens really fly (you can solo one in like 30 seconds, and get like 10% progress from a single skillcheck).
There has to be a way to make gen perks weaker, maybe by making the perks go by charges instead of percentages.But as a survivor main at heart, tunneling is absolutely a problem that I see too often.
Hard-tunneling needs to be cracked down on. Too easy for the killer to just target one person out, and then get the 3v1.
This is especially true for killers with very high mobility (Blight, Ghoul etc.), ranged attackers (Huntress, Trickster etc.), or has a power that can hit multiple survivors at once (like Dracula and Bubba). 4 hook states needs to be a minumum as to not trigger a punishment (5th hook is safe). That way you need two survivors on death hook.
Also, a delayed hook notification (like what was tested during the 9.2.0 PTB) really needs to be in place. Forget Elusive and all of that. Just make it so that the killer does not get notified of unhooks when it happens. That way killers won't drop chase with another survivor, just to beeline it back to the hook right away.-1 -
You're not allowed to be naunaced or understanding. Devs just hate killers and have never even seen the game they wotk on, obviously. Cause that makes sense.
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Devs gave up. Everytime there's a massive uproar pre ptb and doomposting so I wouldn't blame them. Anti slugging got reverted like 3-4 times atp. Months of wasted resources.
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Pallets S2
You know that this crap barely works, right?
Also when I say gen rushing I mean being able to stack gen perks and toolboxes to finish them much faster than they should.Yes.
They could make it 10% so you can get the benefit also when hooking survs for the second time (20% per each surv then).-1 -
I guess I'll have to repeat myself.
As someone who's actually had to lead hour long dev team progress presentations on a weekly basis, I think accusing the dev of not playing the game because he wasn't able to grasp the complete nuance of a handful of twitch chatters opinions because someone else gave him a three-word summary of what was going on in twitch chat, is perfectly understandable, and I refuse to take anyone criticizing that statement as anything worse than "poorly phrased and somewhat unfortunate" seriously. You're just looking for what you want to see at that point.
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you can't have the anti tunnel punishment system at all since it makes survivors too strong and it's too abusable and you have to tweak it into uselessness like the anti hiding/dc changes and at that point you might as well scrap the idea
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i'm fine with this and even suggested it in the feedback changes but just like in there it has to be 50% or an extremely high TOTAL (very important wording) regression for it to be worth it along with floods level aura reading
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I've been somewhat surprised by the turn content creators have taken (I also generally think there's a lot of problems highlighting them). Somehow 9.2 PTB has gone from the worse thing in the world, to being fondly remembered as a great idea just in need of a few minor tweaks.
I actually come down on the great idea, minor tweak side, but I really feel like we've seen a massive shift in messaging from some people.
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No, bad, stop, just stop.
Stop with the "anti", stop with the "content creators say so", stop with the added mechanics to """"reward"""" killers.
It's continuously being sickening seeing killers getting punched down because the game isn't a couch co-op vs a braindead AI killer. They have tried these major changes twice now, some of them three times now, and nobody genuinely believes it's all fantastic additions. They will not get it right no matter how much they tweak or change these "anti" things because at its foundation it is flat out factually wrong and harmful to the game itself.
Find a different answer.-5 -
I think this was a mixture of the loud minority getting their way and then walking triumphantly away, and the dust on the knee-jerk reactions settling and everyone just thinking it over and realizing it was an okay idea.
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Broadly, this is true. I think BHVR really overreacted to people who had balance concerns, which where frequently overstated and are an inevitable component of any change, and didn't spend enough on those who had concerns about game feel, which is what they should have focused on.
I know you don't follow the CC community, and its hard to generalize the feel of lots of different individuals, but we really seem to have gone from 'all of these changes are awful, trash it all' to 'what do you mean you're trashing the changes?' I worry there has become a norm of just trashing whatever decision BHVR makes instead of providing actual constructive feedback.
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People accuse the devs of not playing the game because they have a long history of making dumb changes that even the most trivial play testing internally would have shown is a bad idea. For example instablind flashlights were not removed until a dev very publically got bullied by some Korean SWF at an event.
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