Do people forget there playing a Competitive game

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They're > They Are

Their =/ There

You're killing me with the spelling alone, Paragon lol

Nitpicks aside, it's as you say. The killer needs to apply pressure through any means necessary, and the continual rise in baseline survivor strength through perks, seconds chances, and basekit features has led to less killer variety and strategic options. The ones that remain are the tried and true for now.

In the very competitive scene of the game, where both sides are assuredly capable at their roles, the survivors have to be nerfed and the killers are not shamed for using these oh-so-terrible strategies such as camping, tunneling, and slugging. Any time the developers propose a change that can be toggled off in custom matches, know that it's an unnecessary one.

Things will not really go for the better until the devs are forced to publicly play their own game for everyone to see like that infamous match in Korea that got flashlights nerfed after Mathieu Cote was humiliated by a random group of survivors four-outing his Hag with no hooks had. Maybe then the devs responsible for balancing the game will be quicker on the uptake about why survivors are slugged for longer than usual on Gideon's Meat Plant.

While I agree with @Pulsar , I disagree just saying things as he did solves anything. I understand he's been here awhile so this is likely just a song and dance by now. All love, @Pulsar , but Ill try to tackle this. I feel @Skeleton23 is passionate about the game and like everyone, wants it to be good overall. Thinking otherwise isn't productive imo. So here's to another good conversation. :)

Why are we complaining about removing something from a game that was built around it

Yes this game was built around Tunneling, Camping and Slugging.

Well, I disagree, as the idea someone would think this is a 'fun thing' is absurd. What kind of design decision would this be? If this game was built like this, there is no way the game would have had the success it has. Tunneling, camping and slugging only became 'a problem' after the game grew bigger than it could handle. BHVR never intended for this game to have the success it has. If this is in disagreement, please explain.

There's anti Tunneling Perks, there's Anti Slugging Perks there is anti Camp Perks and base kit Anti-face Camp. There is already counters to Tunneling and thats working as a team.

All of these 'anti killer playstyles' require absolutely nothing from the killer: no perks, no powers, no addons, nothing. The survivor has to bring perks for any one or more of these three playstyles. Lets see if we can agree on the following as a result.

1: This removes any builds a survivor wants to play. Can't experiment if your build is always preparing some thing that 'might' happen. This harks back to people screaming about Dead hard. 'I shouldn't have to play around a perk that may not be in play.' Then don't. Its a choice. Just like the killer 'might' tunnel/camp/slug'. I think everyone can agree feeling like you 'have' to bring a set of perks to counter something that 'might' be in play feels horrible for a video game. And this isn't a one side or another problem, its a problem for all the players of the game. It happens on both sides and it feels horrible. Please give attention to this, BHVR.

2: Working as a team does so much for the survivor chances of winning. Solo'Q, however, is meant to be a wild card mode imo. You don't get voice chat. You don't get much of anything unless BHVR keeps adding base kit BS to everything. I agree working together is a great counter. But is not always possible. Should those games be an easy stomp for the killer? Is this good design or could it be worked on? I'm indifferent, as I like the Solo'Q feeling of hopelessness. Only thing that gives that 'horror' feeling anymore for me.

That goes to the next point. this game is about time and its against the Killer 90% of the time. Every chase is time taken, every pallet break is time taken, every mistake is time taken. Everything the Killer does is time robbing.

The Gens are the timer of the Survivors needing to do them. The faster they Do the Gens the Faster the Timer goes down. The Killer must kill All 4 survivors before that timer hits 0.

So it doesn't matter how they get the Kills they need to get the Kills one way or another and the survivors must keep the Killer busy until they can finish the Gens by any means and escape.

Agreed. The game is about time management. But for both sides. If survivors take too long or goof off, the killer only gets that much closer to winning. Everything here is perfect except 'So it doesn't matter how they get the Kills they need to get the Kills one way or another and the survivors must keep the Killer busy until they can finish the Gens by any means and escape.'

I disagree with this. It very much matters how players 'can' go about this. Things like holding someone hostage due to collision, or team mates griefing, there's all kinds of things that can make a match terrible. And like tunneling, camping, and slugging, it's perk/addon/power free. Anyone can do it with nothing equipped.

And this leads to my point: Most things that can be done in the game that players dislike are things that don't require anything at all but loading into the match. Tunneling, camping, slugging, genrushing, tea bagging, body blocking, its all doable without anything required. SO perhaps BHVR should look into that bit of relation. But winning for the sake of winning by any means is a little out of touch. Its a video game, not literal killing, so why are we creating things that screw over only the players? Ah, to win. Eh.

The Killer is the Power role and it makes sense because its 1 against 4. Its a harder role because you have to manage 4 people. Killer can be seen as the management role because you have so much to keep your eye on while the time ticks down.

This is the same for both sides imo. Solo'Q would be the outlier since who knows ######### you're getting with team mates.

The killer has to worry about gens popping. That is all. The survivors have to worry about the killer spotting them. That is all. This game is not nearly as complicated as people make it out to be. Regardless, I don't see what this point is supposed to make. This has nothing to do with competitiveness, just a fact that applies to both sides if they're trying. Just my opinion, would love to discuss this one specifically though. :)

The game is Competitive because the game was designed that way because of how much time there truly is on both ends. Killers Tunnel because time is against them and with having to manage 4 survivors that are constantly working on Gens. Spreading hooks maybe a more enjoyable way of playing but its not effective when you want to win

So getting someone out Quickly is strong because it removes 1 extra person on Gens. So if someone is being tunneled Get off Gens and help them until the give up on them or until the others get the Gens Done.

If The Killer is being Competitive then you be Competitive back. Its simpler than it looks.

The is competitive because its two sides trying to complete objectives before the other. Yes, how it is designed. Not because of time, but because of design. The time topic is strictly an in game thing a player will put into place to get things done. You don't -have- to play all time constrained. That's also a choice. Winning only mindset? A choice.

Being competitive has become synonymous with being a D*&$, but I wish it didn't. I wish players could find ways to play the damn game without wanting to ruin things for other players. Good ol human beings doing their finest per usual.

If you want to remove tunneling you need to remove what is built around it because there's Perks that involve Tunneling and strategies that enforce it. Gen Rushing, Sabo Squads will need to be removed to help remove these strategies because they force the Killer to do them.

also Killers Like Twins that there power is designed to Slug will rather need to be reworked entirely or retired because if you cant do this strategy with this killer they Can Funtion.

It makes no sense why remove strategies when Survivors use there second chance perks Aggressively and when they go down they DC and complain about Tunneling or Slugging in the end game chat and Forms.

Well, since those things aren't even related, it seems you are in the crowd that says 'If one side changes, the other side MUST get compensation.'

No, you're not guaranteed anything. BHVR is -trying- to balance. And if one side needs adjustment and not the other, the whining needs to cease. This isn't even in game stuff so I'm sure we can agree on this point. Feeling something needs to be given to offset is just pure entitlement. Too much of that from both sides tbh.

So Tunneling shouldn't of even been a topic unless the game was reserving a huge overhaul to make the Anti Tunnel Work.

Im not saying this to be mean im only speaking my mind and speaking in a way so people can understand. If Tunneling, Slugging is a problem then what there built around need to be Looked at first

Tunneling shouldn't have been a problem. But it is the number 1, 2, or 3 thing complained about, so clearly, it is a problem. Anyone refusing to see this can continue to be in denial, but this is hurting the game. Period. This isn't just my opinion, its (One of) the reasons for constant failed PTBs. They're trying to FIX this very thing you say 'isn't a problem.'

Out. Of. Touch. This is BHVR to the game and community. It is also players who want things to simply remain as is.

Im also not speaking to be mean. My hope is this becomes quite a wonderful discussion, because I can't find the points in your perspective that justify making the game miserable.

That's all! TY for reading if you made it this far. :)

The game is built around camping, tunneling, and slugging because that is mechanically the tools that the one needs to employ against the four. Whether or not a person finds it fun is irrelevant in itself, and the game itself was growing fine in itself before the killer strategies started to be strangled. It's only a "problem" now because they've been becoming the only valid option for low tier killers. Hit-and-run, status effects, hex totems, end game, et cetera. Things have only been getting more difficult as of late as gens have been getting even faster. What is a killer supposed to do when two gens are done by the time they get their first hook? Keep spreading them out? No, the killer needs pressure. That's where camping, tunneling, and slugging comes in.

In combating against these killer strategies, the survivors don't actually need any perks to counter them to begin with. The Japanese playerbase made this point abundantly clear with how they've been playing the game both solo queue and with swf. Their survival rates are higher in average compared to the rest, and yet they are more likely to not use any of the second chance perks. This is because the best defense against tunneling, camping, and tunneling is getting better at the game. People do not get better at the game through second chance perks and continual buffs to the basekit protections. They become reliant upon them just like with the second chance perks.

Survivors are also pressed for time in getting through a match, but the balance between the time management of the two are wildly skewed right now. Healing times are incredibly fast alongside repair efficiency in gen-eral. This is what causes killers to sweat even harder to put pressure on the survivors. Chases being extended by the pallet density update has only been making things worse.

Holding people hostage as a killer or griefing the team as a survivor is nothing at all like what they were trying to say with what you are responding to with that example. A killer must kill in any way they can as much as a survivor must escape through any means necessary. A killer doesn't succeed in holding just one person hostage and a survivor doesn't accomplish anything for the team by sabotaging them. Camping, tunneling, and slugging doesn't need perks, but neither does gen rushing, sabotaging, and pallet/flashlight saving teammates. They're just methods from both sides to get the edge over the other. Winning for the sake of winning is the epitome of a competitive video game which DBD is.

Killers have to prevent gens from being popped and survivors have to escape. Saying it like that, it's quite simple. In practice, it shows that it's not so symmetrical. For one, killers are alone and have to manage everything about that role themselves. Survivors are a group of four and thus are dividing tasks among themselves. Secondly, mistakes are much more impactful on the killer's end than with survivors especially with the continual buffs to second chance basekit effects and perks. The killer has to deal with game issues while solo queue has to deal with team issues. One is not like the other. Thus, it can be said that it is harder on the killer than even a solo queue survivor.

Playing to win the game is not playing to ruin the game for others, and, as it stands, camping, tunneling, and slugging are currently required on the killer's end to have the game even be fair enough to play to win right now. Unless the survivor team is playing horrendously poorly, or the killer being used is an S tier, spreading hooks is an assured way to lose the game as a killer. Does one have to play to win in DBD? No, but one side cannot tell the other whether or not they should play to win at all in the match. It's not uncommon to see people who are playing to win get upset that the other side is playing to win and doing just that. Unfortunately, the community has a streak of hypocrisy on both sides in this regards.

When camping, tunneling, and slugging was being very viciously attacked in the 9.2.0 PTB, and to the lesser degree in the 9.3.0 PTB, it most certainly warranted a "compensation" to offset the changes. The first mistake is acting as though the changes were only affecting one side to begin with which is false. That is the nature of an asymmetrical game, but BHVR has been poorly handling it on top of their inability to close the gap between the strong and weak killers in the game for making spread hooks more rewarding and practical in itself. That which it currently is not and is more of a detrimental playstyle to the killer despite being more enjoyable for both sides. The latest update was practically another net buff to the survivor side with the basekit Borrowed Time getting 50% longer alongside the majority of the anti-camp changes. Meanwhile, there wasn't even a full revert to the horrendous pallet density update, Skull Merchant only got partial of her former strength back from before she got shot behind the shed (she'll still be in D tier at most), and… that's it. A very lopsided update to say the least.

Tunneling is not a problem at all, but it's still getting nerfed without compensation to any other playstyle. The very method in which BHVR got that information of it being a top problem was a well-documented instance of poor information at best. The survey in which they obtained that information also being lopsided in the questions given to the person for filling out as there was hardly any option for why a killer player might be wanting to uninstall the game. The data is unreliable.

The PTBs continually failed because BHVR keeps trying to address symptoms than the actual problems themselves. Tunneling, camping, and slugging is not a problem in the game. The real problem is that the alternative playstyles have been nerfed into the dirt or remain impractical at best. Spreading hooks and going for chases is, again, a very poor way to play killer because it doesn't provide nearly as much benefit in pressure as slugging, camping, and tunneling. Rather than address this issue, BHVR decided to nerf the tried and true methods while floundering on ways to actually buff the alternatives. Basekit BBQ, pop, and haste off fresh hooks was their initial attempt in doing so, but it showed that the power disparity between the killers was another problem yet to be addressed. This wasn't helped by the camping, tunneling, and slugging penalties also being way overtuned in the 9.2.0 PTB so that whole thing was practically scrapped for the 9.3.0 PTB which then followed the same mistakes. That with spreading hooks being discouraged even more so than previously with it offering just a meager bloodlust effect that disappeared whenever the killer sneezed while survivors got massive buffs to basekit second chances with multiple perk effects being cobbled together. Again, another lopsided thing to say the least.

Even in the PTBs where survivors got all these crazy strong buffs and advantages, they still DC like crazy. At what point should the developers realize that they cannot coddle people who aren't willing to learn the game properly and only want to rely on the game being played for them? There comes a point where any notion of sympathy vanishes in the face of witnessing people refuse to improve themselves. That is the very kind of person that got my favorite killer, Sadako, nerfed into one whose counterplay has become the most braindead easy version imaginable yet. Competent survivors stomp her and bad survivors still die to her and complain about her power being "no skill" while showing not even the minimal amount of effort required to interact with said power.

It's quite out of touch to be talking as though you mean well and then immediately label everything the OP talked about as though they're trying to justify making the game more miserable. I supposed I should not have been surprised when you tried alluding that playing competitively is to want to ruin things for someone else. Oh well.

TL;DR

Camping, tunneling, and slugging is not the major problem with the game right now. It's always been a core aspect of the game to begin with. Its rise in publicity and commonplace within the game is a symptom of the overall, bigger problem where killers, most noticeably the lower tiers, have no real options in the face of rising challenges in the game's current meta. Spreading hooks is not viable for the majority of the killers that cannot accomplish blazing fast chases with high map mobility. It was not helped one bit with the careless scattering of pallets all over the realms and has only served to make killer power disparities even greater. This is why people often joke about something like "Nurse by GhoulBlight" because that is the future of the game if things keep getting worse. Killer anxiety has only been getting worse for the low tiers and pushes them into the stronger options which is a detriment to the overall health of the game.

Until spreading hooks and other playstyles become viable, camping tunneling, and slugging should remain the core pillars of establishing pressure as they currently are. The game should be balanced around the ones willing to learn how to play the game than the ones who DC when the game doesn't play itself for them.

If I misinterpreted anything you said prior, then I appreciate the time you take to help explain things better like this.

The unfortunate thing about DBD is that what people perceive as fun is wildly different among them which causes clashes among the community over the sort. The people that love the high-competitive nature of the game find great enjoyment in the sweatier playstyles. The ones that don't, me included, become drained and less willing to play the game as before. Another problem stemming from this is that one cannot decide how the other party plays. I can have try and spread hooks, use off-meta perks, and other non-viable means of playing the game, but then I'll get slammed by the other side and BM'd with horrendous talk. Sweats can't tell casuals to play seriously, and casuals can't tell sweats to play casually. Every match really is a toss-up.

No one ever wins in even mid to high MMR by spreading the hooks and playing nice. The baseline power of the survivor efficiency has been becoming too great to goof around as a killer. There most certainly isn't anyone winning at all levels of play without utilizing killer strategies such as camping, tunneling, and slugging. Unless the survivors are throwing the match, or the killer is using an S tier like Nurse, I have yet to personally see any competent match being won otherwise. A problem with this topic in particular is that the game doesn't even let us know what MMR we are in to properly gauge where we stand or compare our match performance to the community averages. More things for me to add to my list of complaints with BHVR's handling of this.

I do genuinely believe that camping, slugging, and camping would be less of a problem if alternative playstyles and killers were made more viable. I used to spread hooks and use wacky builds like Starstruck Sadako in my early parts of being in this game, but I have since reached a wall where I am actively punished and BM'd for doing this nowadays be it by the game itself or the people I am normally facing anymore. No kind deed I do goes unpunished which you can imagine what that has led to. A problem seen with this is that BHVR has the unfortunate habit of blanket solutions that only end up buffing the more powerful killers and widening the gap still (9.2.0 PTB) or implementing a change that doesn't actually do anything at all to encourage alternative playstyles and actually encourage the very thing they want to discourage (9.3.0 PTB).

To give BHVR some slack, trying to buff alternative playstyles while weak killers are already a mile apart from the more prominent ones is a tricky one, but they painted themselves into this corner. Perhaps one day Sadako will get a proper addon or QoL pass to make up for the damage they've done to her. I'd like to not have to sweat so much for as much value that I can get without trying on higher tiers.

I hope my bitter-flavored ramblings have at least made those three hours of work day a bit better. Take care.