http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why Kaneki is poorly designed
Before anyone gets me wrong, I do not believe Kaneki to be THAT strong. He's good, but there's counterplay and the 50/50s at pallets are very enjoyable, just as they are against Huntress.
The issue is on his LOCK-IN-PLACE attack, which is just very, very, very bad design.
Let me explain.
On the killer's end, you get stuck in place but it doesn't feel bad. Why? Because you are the one initiating the action, therefore it feels REWARDING.
What's happening? ⇒ Locked in place.
Why? ⇒ Hit landed.
Brain ⇒ Dopamine.
Now on the other end, survivors getting locked in place feels so awful, clunky, uninteractive, blablabla. Simply because ON TOP OF GETTING HIT (first penalty: you lose a health state), you also get STUNNED. This feels twice as bad as getting hit. Very poor design. Honestly, even slowing survivors by 90% would make everything way smoother. BHVR, please hire me. You need it.
Now, some people might bring up Wesker, trying to equate the "Throwing" to the "Locked-in place", except that they are inherently different for the sole reason that Wesker CAN MISS. If Wesker throws the survivor in the open air, nothing happens. So, as a Survivor, when you lose a health state to Wesker's power, it doesn't feel as bad as Kaneki's because he could have missed but didn't, you got outplayed.
Comments
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He is a bit in the Springtrap Situation.
When Springtrap droped many claimed he is to op with his stealth. Well we all know that the additional invisibilty was a bug.
Just remove the ability of Ghould to stop his ability mid air so you need Skill to cut off survivors and let him not get every hit by a single click of his mouse button.
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Yeah, something to not make him get hits so easy would be appreciated. The frustrating part about him is that he is the only Killer who gets an easy first hit where not healing is a really, really bad option. While you can get away with not healing against Legion or Plague (and against her it is most of the time better to not heal), you will waste a lot of time healing against Ghoul just to basically be immediatly injured without any effort of the Ghoul-player.
I would also like to see Deep Wound removed from his Kit. I dont know why the Devs had to give Ghoul Deep Wound on top of an already very strong Kit.
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My issue is basically everything is easy for him. Both injury and downing.
He is closest what we can have to free injury, you just can't really prevent it unlike with Legion.
Even downing is easy, because vault let's you ignore god pallets and dash cancel let you easily end next to survivor with low fatigue on top of it.Why can he even vault? I get it on Legion, he needs to get close to you, but Kaneki has ranged attack, so he doesn't really care. At least make it on level of Legion, or Wesker, where it's never really guaranteed down and survivor has to make mistake for it.
Why can he cancel mid leap? Whole point of free injury is difficulty of getting downs, but this allow him to use his power to easily counter hold W and even use it in loops.
Why can he walk with his power for so long? You can't really just break LoS to prevent him from injuring you, because he can just walk around most things. I don't get why it's not on par with Blight, or Wesker.
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there are 4 survivors and 1 killer. being locked in place is time that 3 survivors are going uncontested all for cannibalism flavour
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Kaneki is a money generator so of course he requires 0 skills. His free injury still goes throw walls and atp it's gonna stay like this.
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Its more of an animation problem. If the animation made it so it was clear that like, one of the tentacle things was physically grabbing the survivor, or lifting them up in the air, or some other thing, it wouldn't be as jarring.
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Yeah, it definitely would feel less clunky, but probably still as awful/uninteractive.
Again, when facing Wesker, you have some sort of agency over his power, as it is skill based. You can kinda influence the direction you'll get thrown to based on your positioning. So, even if you lose control over your char, it doesn't feel as awful.
We could even say the same for Trapper, you can avoid traps.
Against Kaneki… if he has LoS on you… well, enjoy your stun (and your free injure - but that's unrelated to the "feels").6 -
anyone care to explain why I'm incorrect or is this a case of "they're booing me because I'm right?"
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If you have a killer that can zoom around the map as quickly as Kaneki can but has zero other powers, they're already going to be very powerful. Closing distance is itself an extremely strong ability and with the amount of distance Kaneki can close very quickly it gives him an immense amount of map pressure.
Now add an easy to land, guaranteed hit to wound ability that can be triggered at a distance that also holds a survivor in place while it lands. Now they're even stronger.
Now tack on all the other techs and cheeses people use with Kaneki and he's easily oppressive.
A problem with Kaneki's design is that while he's fun to play, he's only not oppressive provided the killer decides not to play him like a jerk. How a match goes is mostly up to the killer's skill and temperament - it's their game to lose. I don't know how he could be fixed since being able to zip around so freely is both what makes him so fun and what makes him so broken.
People like to claim his counterplay is looping but running around a rock a few extra times doesn't actually affect matches when he makes that time up by immediately spidermanning off to his next chase as soon as he's hooked someone. It also doesn't help when the killer realizes spending some time chasing people off gens rather than committing to each and every chase can be effective in keeping the survivors from making any progress (especially given that he can get from any gen to any gen very quickly).
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I actually think removing deep wound would be more of an overall buff for him as it'd make vaulting windows and pallets (by far the most unfair part of his kit) much easier, and would no longer allow MFT to counter him.
I do agree though that they should make the injury part of his power much less free since it's literally point and click simulator in its current form.
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Maybe, after locking onto a survivor, he would have to time the grab?
I need to explain this so it makes sense. So, imagine this: You lock on for a grab, start the leap, but the skill check happens during the leap, not after. If you hit it, you grab the survivor, and everything goes like normal. If you don't, you just go in the direction you went, without grabbing on.
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I dont think that MFT is really an argument anymore. Sure, MFT was popular when Ghoul was new released, but even if you now dedicate a Build around getting MFT, it almost never pays off when you go against any Killer who is not Ghoul or Legion. So while MFT had its use when Ghoul was new released (because everyone played Ghoul), nowadays it is not that useful anymore.
I mean, it is a bad Perk in general, but even if you face a Ghoul every forth or fifth game (which is roughly my rate), bringing MFT just for Ghoul is not worth it.
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Money
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People embraced dash killers too much and devs gifted something extreme.
It’s a mix of Wesker and Legion on steroids. But I personally believe despite his poor design he is bearable to play against if not animation and dash bugs. He just embraces the worst in this game everyone hate as well - collision issues.
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I can explain my personal opinion on why I disagree. I disagree with the idea that it doesn’t matter if one player gets stun-locked just because the other three can still do things. I feel that logic is a slippery slope you can use to excuse almost anything, and lets you excuse any uninteractive mechanic. When something is practically guaranteed and out of your control (often like Ghoul’s first hit), it stops feeling like genuine player interaction and more so an inevitability. Writing off that frustration with that inevitability with “it’s only bad for one, not the others because can they can move, so it’s fine” (paraphrasing here on just the general vibe it feels like you were saying, sorry If I’m misunderstanding your point) just isn’t something really I agree with.
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don't get me wrong, I understand the frustrations regarding Kanekis hits, especially the first one. it's hit scan and quite forgiving, sometimes he munches on rocks etc. I'm only specifically talking about the act of Kaneki stunning himself to have a Lil snack. I feel that is the most nothingburger part about him that I genuinely don't understand.
As the Kaneki, I find myself spinning around for the entire duration out of boredom and silliness.
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His lock in place animation is same as weskers only difference is ghoul has better mobility but they both have 3 seconds animation I believe and survivor has full 3 seconds of 150% speed (sprintburst) from injury and killer starts moving after he finishes his animation so ghoul has just better catch up compare to wesker if we compare their damage animations from their powers (plus ghoul deep wounds).
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I want auto lock gone as someone who plays this killer. It hurts more than it helps tbh
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Stopping your movement for a short period of time on its own is not bad design. You get a speed boost afterward, and the killer is slowed after and has a cooldown before he can use his power again. Sure, it might feel bad if you get bit this way, but you're being attacked, it's not really supposed to feel good.
This seems more of a personal issue than a flaw in game design.
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that would make him clunky and bad.
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Ahh, I got you. Yeah idk he’s just got the munchies and he’s gotta stop to enjoy it I guess lol
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Why? Imagine if Blight could stop mid dash and immediately follow up with an m1
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You can't really change Kaneki's power on a fundamental level without completely breaking it. I assume getting locked in place during a tentacle grab is mostly to the game's benefit because allowing the survivor to move around while getting grabbed would create some seriously awkward interactions at the best of times and things just straight up not working properly at it's worst. As for the hitscan BHVR have gone on to say that it needs to be like as they've tested the tentacles being projectiles and it just doesn't work and I'm inclined to agree on since I'd imagine trying to play Kaneki as a projectile-based killer would be the same as playing as Deathslinger on rocket powered ice skates. It would be an extremely frustrating experience. Unfortunately in terms of balance, the most you can do is number tweaks and slight alterations to his power, anything more than that is just straight up breaking his knees.
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But you already can move around while getting grabbed, with the exact same animation.
When he uses his power on a survivor to vault a pallet/window, the same animation is played for the survivor but they can still move, even if heavily slowed down.
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He just gets so much for free that other killers have to work tooth and nail for.
Need to cover half the map in a second? Point and click.
Upgrade your power? Point and click.
Injure a survivor? Point and click.
You'd think he then would have a power useless for helping get the second hit, but this is extremely incorrect after learning how to use the dash better. It's like inverting Oni's design philosophy in the worst way possible.
Oni gets nothing when the game starts, but after a few solid hits and downs, he feels overwhelming and unstoppable when his dash and insta down get going. You need to create your opportunities from the limited powers you start with.
Ghoul just gets to inflict injury after injury plus deep wound plus giving him a third leap, to the point where it feels like the game can have started in 20 seconds and a lot of Ghoul players will already be on their second or third injury. He gets opportunity after opportunity until the game says "alright you gotta do the last part bud" in getting the second hit, but it isn't like the game is making him work more for that second hit the same way Oni has to work for his first.
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Designed for Japanese controller-using hands. That's why.
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Blight doesnt need to stop because he can hit you straight from his dash, kaneki cant thats why he has to cancel his power mid leap, blight moves fast in his dash and has pretty solid hit box if the player understands it (its starts big, realy big because at the start he can hit you when you are slightly behind him its called "shoulder flick" and than its thinner till its looses ability to break pallets near its end). Fact is blight needs more understanding and mechanical skill but he is just bigger monster after that and some loops where kaneki is just m1 with fast vault blight compleatly obliterates like shack (ghoul can bodyblock you if he uses his leaps to cut you off but thats very hard due to autoaim targeting survivors when he aims close to them so its hard because it requires good aim with fast reactions and some luck with autoaim so not many ghouls can do that) or any loop with longer walls where ghoul can do much but chase you down as m1 or try very risky cutting you off with his leaps but blight can rush it down with ease and dont forget blight is slightly slower than billy when using his chainsaw (blight is like 9,2 m/s and billy is without overdrive 10,2 m/s) but blight has way more control over his dash and only doorways are stoping that (thats why he sucks on indoor maps mostly and why larrys is considered one of his worst maps).
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Wesker doesn't just miss, but his miss is also very punishing. Kaneki doesn't really have that…
Low fatigue and can cancel whenever he wants. There is not really room for missplays.
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kaneki cant thats why he has to cancel his power mid leap
So he is basically like Spirit and can use his mobility to end next to a survivor for easy down.
What's the point of free injury then? Isn't whole premise of free injury to have difficulty of downing survivors?
Even if he couldn't cancel mid leap, he would still be able to get same results, but it would require knowledge, where exactly you need to target leap so you end near survivor, or try to use your last leap, which doesn't have slide…I also don't get why his vault is better than Legion…
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He would be more than fine, if his cancel was only after his dash and slide. So he doesn't have to wait for automatic cancel between dashes like Wesker/Blight.
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Well he is easier than spirit but has longer cooldown for attack after cancel.
Even if he couldn't cancel mid leap, he would still be able to get same results, but it would require knowledge, where exactly you need to target leap so you end near survivor, or try to use your last leap, which doesn't have slide…Thats not true because he couldnt get same results because it would took away something and when you take away something it usualy leaves you with max simular result but not the same look at blight for exsample he lost hug tech and is still s-tier but his ability to outplay mid safe shorter loops is now way smaller tna before when he had that hug tech or dracula he lost hug tech on wolf and even he is simular strenght still wolf pounces with hugtech were very hard loss for him because now he has more limited use of his dashes simular to blight scenario so I dont think he would drop in power that much but we cant say he would have same results.
His vault I would compare more to wesker than legion becasue legions vault is stronger but legion cant down you if he isnt coming for the fift hit with his frenzy, I have one big problem with ghouls vault and thats now the hinder that somehow exist for uknown reason because I havent noticed kidnap tech exist sunce its fix but now he just slows survivor he hits when vaulting something and thats more problematic than his vault speed (if I remember correctly I used enraged vault on shack when survivor was on other side of window and he was able to make it to the window still so without the hinder its not that op but because of that hinder being there its way stronger).
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legions vault is stronger
Legion vault is worst vault in the game, because how easily you can vault back as survivor.
If Kaneki had vault as Legion, I couldn't care less about it. But Kaneki has vault better than Wesker for some reason.
Thats not true because he couldnt get same results because it would took away something
Depends on what you take away. Also depends on what the result is.
Result here would be to use his power to get near survivor and down them. This result can be achieved even without mid dash cancel, but you have to target specific spot, so your slide end next to a survivor.
Alternative result is to bodyblock survivor in loops. Even this result can be achieved even without mid dash cancel, because you can use your last dash for this.So his results can be achieved even without the mid dash cancel (I would expect him to be able to cancel after the slide unlike Blight/Wesker). But it would be more likely for Kaneki to miss play and overall not so easy to do. Survivors would also gain an ability to punish mistake by double backing, if he dash too close.
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