http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why does DS only work once?
Comments
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You don't really need a perk to counter hexes on most maps. Just learn totem spawns, they are quite bad. Not like hex builds are super popular anyway…
Neither you need to counter gen slowdown in my opinion, just spread on gens.So you can have anti-tunneling, anti-slugging, healing and you choose info/exhaustion.
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The two uses will do just two metas first is tunnel one guy and fight through it because if you hook others (counting with the fact that when it will be free it will be used a lot than other meta perks) they can use it agressively so best is just focus on someone who seems to be the “weakling” meaning he isnt good at looping and downing him is way esier than other survivors so ds wont help him that much and forces other survivors to try and help hom creating opportunity for building more preasure by pulling survivors from gens and getting hits or at best slugs while pushing the tunnel, or second meta that is just wider tunneling meaning you pick two survivors (like for exsample the first hooked and then someone who is weaker at looping if you can choose) and go between them and other two just injure or slug for preasure so you dont get ds from those two like you would get if you tunneled just one but ds 60 seconds duration can still hit killer if he gets fast down and hook and goes after that unhooked survivor (choosing less survivorsto hook you are doging meta perks like dead hard, deliverence or even agressive use of ds).
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If you swap between two target that is no hard tunneling is it?
And ofcourse you can eat the first DS and slug for the next one. The slugged Survivor can still get use of unbreakable, can be picked up, crawl under a pallet or in the open for flash light saves. While if DS only works once this survivor would be dead on the third hook in the instant.
I try to punish hard tunneling.
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I feel you just imagine there are only one way players can play (and ofc it's the most oppressive scenario for survs), so it never would be situation where player can use some perk that literally gives you a second chance to try again not for their advantage, and not only protection. It seems you also don’t believe killer can get hook for other player within DS timer, that excludes tunneling because killer switched target for a while, and making DS a completely unfair perk punishing killer for quick hook chains and survivors mistakes. Or, it’s something completely disingenuous in your words, and you want to ignore certain scenarios in a match simply because they stop making the survivor look like a poor victim.
Hop in a locker after all, making killer think twice about either commiting to additional chase for hook stage but potential loss of pressure, or skip such player, leaving them doing whatever they want. Do slow vault instead of fast one so killer will literally be forced to grab you instead of slugging, and they need realise it and react properly. If killer let you slugged for a whole minute camping your body - even better, because it's free generators and killer wasting time. If your teammates aren't potatoes ofc.
Think however you want. If you genuinely believe there are no ways than yours, I’m just not surprised why you obsessed with tunneling scenario so much in this game.
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No, you're talking about 'forcing a DS'.
It's not like I don't know what you're referring to with these scenarios, but here's the problem from my perspective:
I've fallen for this only once.
In every subsequent attempt by a survivor to use DS offensively, it has resulted in a win for me. Because all you have to do is not hit spacebar on the DS user. You're talking about a locker, but a survivor in a locker isn't doing gens, and is thus not my concern. You're talking about slow-vaulting, but that's only a concern if I am chasing them, which I never do on anyone who may still have active DS. There's no point in camping the body either, since that slug is not going to do anything for a while and you have other targets to get onto.
There is no way to actually 'force a DS' because you cannot make a killer pick you up. Nothing you do can force them to hit that spacebar.
leaving them doing whatever they want.
Provided it doesn't help the survivors in any way. That's something that consistently gets omitted.
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So your answer is camping surv in a locker? Or what? You leave them, “because they aren’t on gens”, they finish healing and do their business, putting you in a lose situation because outcome of your chase survivor avoiding hook. You camp them in this locker- you both waste each other time, and since there are 3 players on other side, you are in the only disadvantage here. You go through DS - perk was basically used, and now it’s purely a matter of skill from both sides in matters of chase. When it is a win situation here? Like an attempt to gaslight yourself you didn’t waste your time more than in scenario when unprotected from DS player did same play? You still waste your time going for that player, who suddenly ending up in this locker after all. You still waste an opportunity of free additional hook stage for them and process of this happening is longer in comparison of this perk absence. You simply can’t chase the person without consequences of facing this perk.
Provided it doesn't help the survivors in any way. That's something that consistently gets omitted.
If u as killer with this survivor as well, it’s not them wasting time and not helping. It’s only killer wasting time here. There are no adequate scenarios when there are 4 people on gen, until killer wasting their own time themselves. So person with DS simply stop being a weak link, putting killer in scenario where they either commit to more vulnerable player close to them, eat second chance and try again, or commit to other players wasting time on finding them, going through prerun, and whole health state. You still in the worst spot than player not using this perk, no matter aggressively or not.
I would like to see some of your games against 4 DSes, if you insist on their miserable synergy and inability to be used aggressively. Against meaningful team, doesn’t matter solo or sfw. You really love to insist that even in actuality good situation for surv side - so come one. I still never seen none of your games from both sides, none of your stats, yet you insist that your way of gameplay is unanimously truthful one. Yk, I don’t mind even playing custom where you’ll show masterclass of killer playing in such scenario, and I can try find additional three players for this deal. Comms in case of S tier killer, without comms for anyone else.Such stuff should be proved on practice, I don’t like theory here because you can spit whatever you want and wrap it as a truth.
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If he goes down for second time ( sugesting ds has two uses) than its still near one minute of time to waste from the killer which is gen or near whole gen and thats just great time waste for the killer.
Hard tunneling can be punished by super strong ds but you will also punish the killers that dont tunnel and buff the agressive use of ds double so again swf wins.
Better fix to punish hardcore tunneling is just basekit changes not just making few perks 100% stronger and call it a fix. The nicer idea was some motivation like unique hooks that motivated killers to play more nice and some punishments like increase gen speed for kill (hooking someone 3 times in the row, not for dying on first hook) at five or four gens which id number where I agree tunneling isnt needed but from 3 to 1 gen there shouldnt be any punishment for tunneling even if its hardcore one because at that point 4 survivors can do the rest of gens with ease.
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When it is a win situation here?
When you're not chasing the person pulled off the hook 60 seconds ago.
Because now you've narrowed it down to DS 'unfairly disadvantaging the killer' when they do the ONE thing the perk is designed to work against.
If you've got a survivor sitting their DS out in a locker while you are doing literally anything other than hunting that particular survivor, that is a win for you. Even if you are spending time looking for someone else, or just kicking a gen, or chasing another survivor, that time the DS user spends sitting in a locker is time they are wasting, not you.
Because they could have been on a gen, or on a totem, or healing someone, but they're doing none of that, because they're in a locker trying to 'force DS'.
So person with DS simply stop being a weak link, putting killer in scenario where they either commit to more vulnerable player close to them, eat second chance and try again, or commit to other players wasting time on finding them, going through prerun, and whole health state.
At this point, your complaint is that DS does a thing, at all. Your opinion is that the perk should be designed so that, no matter what the killer chooses to do, it should always end in their favour. They should always have a 'win' option, even if they're multiple bad decisions deep into the one strategy this perk is meant to counter.
Important thing to remember here is that it is a survivor perk, and thus it is meant to benefit the survivors. A survivor perk is not meant to be designed to benefit the killer.
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Doesnt matter what it was for you its loss for the killer either way because if survivor who got unhooked forced bodyblock with some kind of endurance effect than killer decided to punish him for it (very common behavior especialy if he bodyblocked healty survivor its easy to tell killer will go most likely for guy that is oneshot and cant be saved by perk like dead hard or otr anymore) by chasing him some time and that survivor is doing some action that is forcing a grab then killer has few options A to just eat the ds and commit to another chase wasting his precious time or B wait it and trying to get timing right but that survivor can have head on and force another chase or just cause even with waiting it out time loss for the killer or C killer csn leave and go for another survivor which is biggest time waste if that killer doesnt hacve great catch up with solid antiloop like blight,ghoul,billy. All of this is very effective if other survivors do gens and killer has few options, best are stronger killers with catch up powers because they can deal with it more easier than just m1 killers, now if this will do survivors like three times they can get around of plus minus the 90 seconds which is gen time or almost whole gen for single survivor and thats huge hinder for most of killers.
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Important thing to remember here is that it is a
survivorperk, and thus it is meant to benefit the
survivors. A survivor perk is not meant to be designed to benefit the killer.
Yeah. Thats my point. DS can’t be used as a win situation for killer, so you can use it beyond tunneling scenario, “force it”, and it’s still gonna benefit surv player, rather than killer one. Already. Even without making it two time use. With it this is basically a free play, but whatever.
When you're not chasing the person pulled off the hook 60 seconds ago.Oh, so we are making game even more simple, letting unhooked survivor for free heal and roam away? So “win” scenario is playing by the rules of the perk again, avoiding survivors as much as you can? I thought win is about building your own conditions. There are no win scenarios with this perk, and no counterplay. You just wait how survivor gonna capitalise this resource. Nothing about this perk giving you win here from killer perspective. Even in attempts of survivor to use it offensively, the only thing you do as such survivor if killer ignores is return to your business and using moment of killer consciously ignoring you. You still get benefits, because it made you unattractive target.
Again, I don’t mind playing such game with you, to prove your theory. You can show me such a lovely counterplay of this perk, I wouldn’t mind it. I’m ready to waste whole slot for this perk never been used.-4 -
Doesnt matter what it was for you its loss for the killer either way because if survivor who got unhooked forced bodyblock with some kind of endurance effect than killer decided to punish him for it (very common behavior especialy if he bodyblocked healty survivor its easy to tell killer will go most likely for guy that is oneshot and cant be saved by perk like dead hard or otr anymore) by chasing him some time and (…)
"If I do exactly the thing I'm supposed to NOT do, why am I getting punished!?"
Yeah. Thats my point. DS can’t be used as a win situation for killer, so you can use it beyond tunneling scenario, “force it”, and it’s still gonna benefit surv player, rather than killer one. Already. Even without making it two time use. With it this is basically a free play, but whatever.
Except the problem is that you cannot 'force it'. Every situation you come up with is one in which the killer actively makes it happen in multiple steps.
Oh, so we are making game even more simple, letting unhooked survivor for free heal and roam away? So “win” scenario is playing by the rules of the perk again, avoiding survivors as much as you can?
Yes, it is. Because now, instead of that survivor having a perk that could help them, like Prove Thyself, Vigil, Sprint Burst, Botany Knowledge or anything else that could provide a tangible reward for them, they are playing with a dead perk slot that is of no benefit to them.
Nothing about this perk giving you win here from killer perspective.
And that is supposed to be the norm.
Again, it is a survivor perk. It's not supposed to be a win for the killer!
Your framework here is predicated on the notion that any situation that involves DS should benefit the killer more than if DS was not present. That is preposterous for a survivor perk that is meant to benefit survivors.
Even in attempts of survivor to use it offensively, the only thing you do as such survivor if killer ignores is return to your business and using moment of killer consciously ignoring you.
And now we're getting somewhere, because consider this: How is this any different from the killer being in chase with someone else?
While they're doing something else, they are not on your case. This is an insanely ordinary situation, but because DS is involved, suddenly it strikes you as deeply problematic. But a killer in chase routinely ignores 3/4 survivors anyway, so why is it such a major problem if this one perk were to increase the chance that you are one of the three the killer is not chasing in that exact moment?
The grotesque benefit that you describe here is extended, basekit, by default, to any survivor not found first, for the entire duration of the first chase. Is that broken OP somehow because in this particular case, it was prompted by a perk?
Are we also going to declare it incredibly unfair to the killer that when they commit to chase with the first survivor they see, the other three are free to do whatever they want?
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DS is involved, suddenly it strikes you as deeply problematic
Nothing problematic for me. I just said DS is strong enough already and even can be used in non tunneling scenarios, so buffing it just a ridiculous speech. You tried proved me it’s wrong and ultimately failed, because u accept a review only of specific situations that benefits your position, and even afraid to prove your point on practice 👀
Your framework here is predicated on the notion that any situation that involves DS should benefit the killer more than if DS was not present
Are we also going to declare it incredibly unfair to the killer that when they commit to chase with the first survivor they see, the other three are free to do whatever they want?First, it’s your assumption, and not my position. I don’t claim it should benefit killers. I claimed it’s benefiting survivors enough. So, whole arguamentation based around this. I’m not gonna “object” any of your further statements, because they are based on false assumption. Don’t rewrite my words if you analysed them by specific way I didn’t translate.
It’s not related to topic completely and you pushing this to far off-topic, trying to play around words with your hypothetical speech again. You know I don’t appreciate such style of discussion. So again, if you refuse prove your point yourself again after my proposal, I feel nothing towards any of your declarations and their value drops to being 0 for me. Try to prove your position to anyone else, but it doesn’t work for me and you know whyI don’t see point in discussing your theory and perception of perk usage when you two times completely ignore my proposal prove your words on practice. I even didn’t start discussion with @Leon_van_Straken from the position this perk should be nerfed, I just said it shouldn’t be buffed in a way they proposed and argued why, your personal view on tunneling and relation to this perk doesn’t bother me.
And again, you missed my point with a need of practical proof of your position. Therefore this is a dead end for me. There are no way you’ll be able to actually develop this discussion, so nuh, thanks, that’s enough for me at this point. I know how tunneling bothers you, but you should know it stopped bothering me for really long time ago. There are no way you’ll be able to convince me in otherwise just because it’s some kind of your personal trauma that made you stuck on this forum.
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because u accept a review only of specific situations that benefits your position
No, that's you. You keep pulling out scenarios where the killer is multiple mistakes deep into a bad situation and then going 'how can the killer benefit from this, hm!?' without taking a step back and realising that if the killer hadn't committed to their prior mistakes, they wouldn't be in the situation they're in.
It’s not related to topic completely
You brought it up as a benefit to DS.
So again, if you refuse prove your point yourself again after my proposal, I feel nothing towards any of your declarations and their value drops to being 0 for me. Try to prove your position to anyone else, but it doesn’t work for me and you know why
I do know why, it's because you desperately want to dismiss everything I say because you can't argue against it, so you just toss it on '1v1 me, bro!' so you can still pretend to take the high ground.
Have you considered seeing for yourself how much value DS has if you play the way I described?
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You keep pulling out scenarios where the killer is multiple mistakes deep into a bad situation and then going 'how can the killer benefit from this, hm!?' without taking a step back and realising that if the killer hadn't committed to their prior mistakes, they wouldn't be in the situation they're in.No, I don’t. I said “you can” benefit from using DS beyond tunneling scenario. I asked about killer benefiting because you literally claimed this yourself.
Here is your quote, literally.
In every subsequent attempt by a survivor to use DS offensively, it has resulted in a win for me
And thats why I asked to prove this claim by action, because basing opinion on such statements requires evidences.I also didn’t toss 1vs 1. Just another proof you talking with yourself and imaginative arguments, skipping whole content of discussion. Are you really eager to step on same rake? I asked about prove of play within team. There are no way you can showcase DS value in 1vs1 or through theoretical speech, which was my main point.
Because this is no first time you refuse provide any evidences of your play, so your “I play…” “it resulted x for me”, is already sound as hollow statement for me.
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so the issue isnt tunneling or needing the perks to counter it, the issue is matchmaking and mmr matching skilled players v unskilled players. so tunneling killers get lucky and get matched with unskilled survivors that cant counter it… but when v skilled survivors its more evenly matched. likewise with survivors, can get lucky and get an unskilled killer that tunnels and just loop them.
so using your logic, when you are tunneled out, dont blame tunneling or the killer, blame mmr for matching a skilled killer v unskilled survivor that cant counter it
-1 -
You're not really understanding my logic at all, or you just don't want to. You just want to twist it into your own narrative.
If someone gets tunneled out, I will absolutely blame the Killer, because they made the choice to tunnel in the first place. MMR is an issue as well, but for all kinds of different reasons. Killers can and will tunnel at any MMR level, but MMR matchmaking can play a hand in the outcome, since a skilled Survivor can loop and unskilled Killer, but not so well when it's the other way around. If the Killer and Survivor are equally skilled, then it comes to whoever happens to win the constant paper/rock/scissors game.
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If someone gets tunneled out, I will absolutely blame the Killer, because they made the choice to tunnel in the first place.You can let the blame be shared depending on how efficient the tunnel is. You could similarly blame gen rushing both on the survivors who focus on it and the killers who can't disrupt it. Strategies for both sides always revolve around efficiency toward the objective while preventing the opponent from doing the same. Blaming the killer for taking advantage of an unhooked survivor refusing to leave or running right into a dead zone is blaming them for making the correct play. Just like it would be to blame a survivor for rushing gens when they know the killer has no interest in interrupting them.
Edit: Since I feel like it needs to be spelled out, that isn't to say every person who tunnels is innocent every time, but more that its blame shifting to ignore the survivor's agency and their lack of ability to utilize it.
If the Killer and Survivor are equally skilled, then it comes to whoever happens to win the constant paper/rock/scissors game.There is a lot more to interactions between sides than mindgames and luck. Things like routing and positioning are why tunneling even works, as they cut down time to down considerably. Again, tunneling becomes much less effective when the survivor refuses to go down, and being on the backfoot is not the same as having a foot in the grave.
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so the killer got lucky by getting an unskilled survivor that cant counter them and you blame the killer? Thats exactly what you have just said. not sure that makes sense. none of what you have said makes sense….
- killers dont get 100% kill rate because not all killers tunnel…..when debunked showing no killer is getting 100% kill rate you change arguments to
- killers dont get 100% kill rate because they get lucky going against unskilled survivors which says skilled survivors can beat it. when your in that position of lucky killer v you being the unskilled survivor that cant counter it its suddenly
- you twisting it to fit your narrative.
each time your argument is proven false you change it to try fit your narrative. you lay the rules down but refuse to accept the rules apply to you too. as far as mmr goes, yet it is messed up i agree but after months and years of playing survivor and having very little issues with tunneling the luck card just doesnt wash, your just dismissing your own skill level by basically saying "nothing wrong with my skill, no one can counter tunneling, its unbeatable, anyone that counters it is lucky."
if the killer is unskilled going against skilled survivors then it wont matter how much tunneling they do, they wont get that skilled looper.
likewise, if the survivor is unskilled and the killer is skilled it wont matter if the killer tunnels or not, thats survivor is going down.
Thats how the game should be, thats how the game is and thats how the game will always be. fact remains, a tunneling killer cant tunnel if the survivor is skilled enough to out loop them. so like i said, next time your tunneled, you really should blame the mmr matchmaking system for matching you with a killer you cant loop….maybe some day you will get "lucky" like me and start getting unskilled killers that you can loop like i do.
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Game can be over less than 4 minutes from the start and we still want to act like focusing someone out isn't fair? After all this time you lot STILL want to ignore the in-your-face fact of the stupid game setup?? If you cap off the completion rate of gens, you can have all the anti-focus features you want, but you can't have loads of anti-focus AND comically fast completion rates at the same time. The thing you want has to be properly facilitated to work.
It also gets complicated because not all killers are capable of the same power output
For example: Nurse and Blight put out 1000 volts a piece while Ghostface and Trapper barely put out 100 volts, yet people want to hold them to the same restriction standard, which is dead-ass ignorant. The S & A tiers have the power to ignore you and go find somebody else, the mid tiers can only do that sometimes and the lower tiers have to take whatever they can get as soon as they can get it to stand a chance. However, in spite of how true this is, the majority of survivor players don't give a damn and continue to act like their feelings about their individual experience in a trial matter more than what's fair. It's disappointing and extremely annoying that so many people want to take such an overly selfish stance on this.
It's like a bunch of people are trying to squeeze a single-player survival story out of a multi-player contest and then getting mad/vocal that they're not receiving the desired outcome.
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No, you're the one twisting my words to fit your own narrative. I'm not going to try to explain it all again, so I'm done with this discussion.
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by your done trying to explain it all again you mean your out of arguments to flip to. good discussion
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And there you go, twisting my words again. That's why there's no point in discussing anything with you.. Tunneling is a problem that needs to be addressed, no matter how you try to defend it.
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how is using your own views twisting things? you still havnt explained how a survivor that doesnt find tunneling an issue because they can counter it is only able to do so due to being lucky repeatedly for years playing with unskilled killers…..but when your the survivor that gets tunneled your unlucky because your not going against an unskilled killer like i have apparently been doing for years.
This is what your failing to explain, you say say its a problem, you say it cant be countered, you say its luck that counters it. true? this is what you said. But the fact this "luck" seems to last month after month, year after year doesnt seem to tie in with luck.
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Yeah, it does take luck to counter it in one way or another. Whether the Killer is unskilled, whether you win the countless 50/50's (which are heavily skewed in the Killer's favor, since they only have to win the mindgame once), or whether you have random teammates that try to protect you (and rarer still for them to succeed in doing so), and whatever perks they're running, or the Killer is running. All of those are factors of luck.
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based on that killer getting kills is also luck, luck of the map, luck of the quality of survivor they go against, 50/50 pallets being luck, spawn locations being luck, everything is luck based thats the point to RNG.
But are you saying that this luck has maintained for years for myself and others that have no problems with tunnelers and your luck is that bad that tunneling is an issue? if looping killers for years to the point of tunneling not being an issue is luck based then what is skill based?
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I wish Slippery Meat® worked with chase somehow to be general 'luck'.. Maybe turning a pallet stun + killer m1 hit into just… a pallet stun? Boy that'd be lucky lol.
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And thats why I asked to prove this claim by action, because basing opinion on such statements requires evidences.That one is pretty obvious - any survivor trying to use it offensively isn't on a gen.
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This would be a fine change in 99% of games, but if you get a 4 stack with 4 ds and they’re good at the game that’s gg for most of the killer roster. I’m also not sure I agree with solving problems with the game using perks as the solution.
I think they need to do away with the skill check considering it’s about to become a general perk that newer players can use.
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Here is more simple answer - if killer not engaged in area close to you, you simply don't use it offensively. I don't know why u all imagine kind of survivor that running behind killer and craving for attention in such case. Or that person doesn't have enough freedom for changing their decision if they find it not fitting to situation. Games are variable, and I honestly advise stop pretending that specific decision provides a guaranteed outcome.
There are already a case, that freshly unhooked players can’t instantly hop on gen before reset and map rotation. More likely, it’s an ask for tunnelling as soon as killer decides to capitalize to use a mistake in case of returning to this area. So again… there are too many cases. I wasn't claiming here with 100% assurance that u must use DS offensively every match. Same advise for your statements
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I don't know why u all imagine kind of survivor that running behind killer and craving for attention in such case.
Because YOU are talking about 'forcing DS'!
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Pretty sure you're the only person who "doesn't have a problem with tunneling" on the Survivor side. I haven't seen any other Survivor say that.
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Yes, because you can do this. I even provided you an example. Won’t quote it, try to find it yourself. I’ll just try to remind again.
If there are a case that the only available survivor is unhooked with DS, there are a force of this perk. Firstly, do you have a guarantee thought this person has a DS? No. Secondly, do you have info of other players that also as easily available for you? No. Are you gonna waste time for searching of others? Well… you can. But I wouldn’t call it smart decision either. Because you still taking a bait and waste your time, not being immediately engaged in chase. While this person allowed do whatever they want. If you aren’t hardtunneling, it is still a case person doing this.
“Force a DS” goes beyond forcing stun animation. It’s showing killer player isn’t such an easy target. Even when it’s not deserved, like killer hooked other person (so there are no tunneling), and player standing in the most poor spot. Yes, this person not immediately on gen, but if it’s you already looking at such player, you aren’t preventing gen progression either.That’s why again, I simply propose a showcase. I would like to see how you playing as killer, and how good it is playing against poor 4 DS synergy. Because it’s you who claim this, like it’s a guaranteed outcome for killer.You even gonna have an advantage of knowing that they have this perk, which is unlikely for real match, so why not? Or you just wanted to comment me where I say that X situation is possible and... for what? Right now, I just get the impression that you're upset that I'm against buffing this perk, because there are a potential of use beyond tunneling scenario. You have the freedom to simply ignore me, but honestly idk what you trying to achieve now. You really asking for this continuous and unproductive discussion just for some forum farming.
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I even provided you an example.
Except your examples all relied on the killer actively choosing to chase you, thus it not being 'forced' at all.
Secondly, do you have info of other players that also as easily available for you? No.
Yes, with two exceptions, those being Wicked and Deliverance. If that survivor gets off the hook, you know the exact location of one other survivor because you know where the unhooker is.
Are you gonna waste time for searching of others? Well… you can.
You should've been 'wasting' that time to begin with, unless you were camping. And if you were camping, or if the unhook happened under your nose, you don't need to search for anyone because the unhooker is right there.
While this person allowed do whatever they want.
Again, by definition, this is not true. Conspicuous actions remove DS.
It's not 'whatever they want' if it's heavily restricted. The second they touch a gen, their behind's right back on the menu.
“Force a DS” goes beyond forcing stun animation. It’s showing killer player isn’t such an easy target. Even when it’s not deserved, like killer hooked other person (so there are no tunneling), and player standing in the most poor spot. Yes, this person not immediately on gen, but if it’s you already looking at such player, you aren’t preventing gen progression either.
This is still not 'forcing DS'. If the killer is already on someone else's tail, be it someone they went after when they left the hook, or the unhooker, that DS is doing nothing.
That’s why again, I simply propose a showcase.
No, you don't.
You're demanding that I showcase it for you.
Nothing is stopping you from playing the way I describe and finding the results yourself. This demand for a skirmish comes from your personal beef with me and not from any kind of rational consideration of the matter at hand.
because there are a potential of use beyond tunneling scenario.
Except you haven't shown any of these because all of your scenarios require the killer to focus on a freshly unhooked target, which is tunnelling.
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Except you haven't shown any of these because all of your scenarios require the killer to focus on a freshly unhooked target, which is tunnelling.
This is pretty disingenuous. Since you can’t provide own match for some reason….
In this game DS was used by me.
— It was 3vs1 scenario.
— Killer knew only position of me and hooked teammate. I was freshly unhooked, sure, but tricky thing player hooked someone after me as well, that is already excluding tunneling scenario. It was a hook before focusing on me.
— I didn’t have time to heal/go on gen, I also didn’t want showing them location of my teammate who was meant to unhook, so obviously it was a forced situation of me doing nothing.
— Again, they didn’t have info about other teammate. They saw only me, and I was closer to hooked teammate, so killer isn’t able to leave me, otherwise I am a) reset and go on last gen b)unhook teammate if they prioritise gen instead.
It was me literally hoping on locker, forcing pick up animation instead of letting slug. Before hoping on locker I put them on floor below (it was RPD), distracting them from the unhook.Outcome:
— Teammate was safely unhooked.
— They reset despite killer having active sloppy butcher— They progressed on gen, and it later helped us finishing all of them.
If I didn’t have DS? Game would be over within minute. That was pretty doomed match, because first death happened on 4th gen. And killer was doing really fast chases. If I didn’t have DS, more likely no one went to endgame. I wouldn’t escape at least for sure.
This is real match. Not some pretty theory, just how people actually playing the game. To counter this situation killer had to do some predictive moves and ignoring rational way of play, that usually never happens for obvious reason. Because they are playing, barely caring for theories from forums.-3 -
Killer knew
onlyposition of me and hooked teammate. I was freshly unhooked, sure, but tricky thing player hooked someone after me as well, that is alreadyexcludingtunneling scenario. It was a hook before focusing on me.Firstly, they didn't know only your position, because you were unhooked, so they knew your unhooker was nearby too.
Secondly, you are freshly unhooked so them returning to hook to chase you IS tunnelling, that is the specific situation DS is designed for.
I didn’t have time to heal/go on gen, I also didn’t want showing them location of my teammate who was meant to unhook, so obviously it was a forced situation of me doing nothing.
So, in other words, it wasn't to the killer's detriment.
Again, they didn’t have info about other teammate. They saw only me, and I was closer to hooked teammate, so killer isn’t able to leave me, otherwise I am a) reset and go on last gen b)unhook teammate if they prioritise gen instead.
If you take either of those actions, you lose DS.
You're laser-focused on the killer perspective here, but have you considered survivor perspective here? If the killer doesn't chase you, what does that leave you with?
You can either:
A) Do nothing
B) Lose DS when touching a gen
C) Lose DS when unhooking
Which of those are a 'win'?
If I didn’t have DS? Game would be over within minute. That was pretty doomed match, because first death happened on 4th gen. And killer was doing really fast chases. If I didn’t have DS, more likely no one went to endgame. I wouldn’t escape at least for sure.
All of this also really doesn't help illustrate DS being some kind of problem because the entire match is insanely twisted from the get-go. Having a kill at 4 gens left and then somehow losing the 3v1 isn't down to DS, that is a colossal disparity in skill.
4 -
The only way I can use my DS aggresiv is by doing the following.
When I notice that the mate which unhooked me is in danger I ran "accidentaly" close to the Killer but run straight to a loop.
If the Killer follows the bait "which shouldn´t be that obvious" I try to loop them without using a pallet, I greed a weak pallet as long as I can and sadly I get stuck close to the pallet when my DS timer only contains an eight of its time.
This is what I understand under using DS aggressive.
1 -
Firstly, they didn't know only your position, because you were unhooked, so they knew your unhooker was nearby too.
Simply starting with this, when I clearly said killer was busy hooking other person and didn't see where unhooker was. Sure, 4.4 killer MUST to search for healthy surv nearby ignoring injured person, because random from forum knew about DS and said there are a specific way of how to play around it.
Having a kill at 4 gens left and then somehow losing the 3v1 isn't down to DS, that is a colossal disparity in skill
This straight determination of defining someone’s skill sounds as person trying to be restaurant critique barely cooking. You seriously expect me somehow treat your messages about someone's skill after our previous encounters? Just because it was private info and cause of some respect I’m not gonna point on your frequency and amount of play here, in public discussion, doesn't mean I forgot about it. My perspective of view on you barely changed after this, because I haven’t seen any other results of your actual play.
-5 -
Simply starting with this, when I clearly said killer was busy hooking other person and didn't see where unhooker was. Sure, 4.4 killer MUST to search for healthy surv nearby ignoring injured person, because random from forum knew about DS and said there are a specific way of how to play around it.
Then eat the DS if you don't want to do it, but don't act like it's 'forced'. If anything, arguing that just chewing through the DS is the obviously better option is just a strong indicator that the perk is significantly too weak to do its job!
This straight determination of defining someone’s skill sounds as person trying to be restaurant critique barely cooking.
Are you going to argue that it's not? How exactly does someone lose the 1v3 with 4 gens left if not by being massively outplayed?
Just because it was private info and cause of some respect I’m not gonna point on your frequency and amount of play here, in public discussion, doesn't mean I forgot about it.
The combination of your constant allusions to it in conjunction with private messages make it clear that you've already told everyone willing to listen to you, anyways, so don't act saintly here.
You can't keep saying 'I'm not gonna say anything about it buuuuuut' and still pretend you haven't said anything. People here aren't stupid, and everyone has already picked up on what you have very intentionally put down.
3 -
I was trying to explain about baiting killer to force some action, but honestly, I don’t think they ever gonna take it seriously, because there are only one reality of match can be played.
If it's 3vs1 on 4 gen, for example, it must be a definitive loss for them, and there are no point to play the match. According their logic, ofc. It's either guaranteed 4k for killer, or survivor must escape through hatch.
When if you actually start to sweat in response, sudden 3vs1 can turn to win. Maybe DC and go next epidemy influenced on people mentality to the state when there are no way to fight back.
Then eat the DS if you don't want to do it, but don't act like it's 'forced'.So now we flipping situation in a way of more semantic meaning? Sure, there are no way player bait other player into some action because it is more meaningful to take this bait, even if it's disadvantageous and unpleasant, rather than taking a pose and risking with loss. Sure.
If you wish so, okay, it wasn't “forced”. I baited killer player and they took it, because in the context it was the best possible way from both sides.
just a strong indicator that the perk is significantly too weak to do its job!
In your phantasies where perk for some reason must give immunity to a player after they literally lost health state, maybe. In reality of this game where everything on timer and you commit to decisions based on info — No. That the point of me calling this forced, because actual player can’t do the right play in such case. Do I have DS or not? Is it better to leave such player and attempting to find other person with no info? Killer player can’t counterplay perk, and if they aren't taking ridiculous risks, DS creates a situation where it provides additional obstacle for killer. So you buy time for a team, because it’s the most valuable resource in game. You yourself making this perk weak expecting gifting an immunity just because having personal grudge on tunnel. You treating it as so, that's why struggling to comprehend a concept of its aggressive use and argue for buffs.
Are you going to argue that it's not? How exactly does someone lose the 1v3 with 4 gens left if not by being massively outplayed?
Person wasn’t completely outplayed. I didn't say killer lost in my message, they took their pity 3rd kill in endgame, when we fighted for tie. I said DS gave me escape. And no. Being outplayed doesn’t always define skill issue, how you try to present. This is simply an actual sportsmanship when people don't instantly give up facing with disadvantage. There are some strong entitlement among players in this game giving up if they lose early start I always despised.
The combination of your constant allusions to it in conjunction with private messages make it clear that you've already told everyone willing to listen to you, anyways, so don't act saintly here.
My respect is in not exposing full info I’ve seen. Doesn't mean I’m not gonna make obvious remarks of your level of play, because you strive to point on someone skill or decision making. Demand? Comply. Dare to at least once show your own results before telling others how they should play or treat game mechanics. If it's not simple forum farming ofc.
That's one thing I don't like on this forum. Many players loves to bring statements, yet afraid showing results of their play or uncover some truth how they perceive specific situation. It creates a bunch of controversial takes and later spread to misconceptions of how people playing the game. If I see another “skill issue” or “you must play x way” statement from person I still haven’t seen meaningful proves of their play, suddenly I am a sinner exposing such thing? Sure.
-5 -
I'm not sure I follow your logic. Wouldn't that actually be a slight edge for you if you're playing a weaker killer?
After all, that four stack is only running three perks each that actually concern you, which is something.
2 -
Thing is, you dont really lose chase when you get hooked. Is it really a lost chase if 3 gens are gone?
Once a killer chases, a down is effectively inevitable, meaning a hook is effectively inevitable.
The whole tunnel off hook breaks the basic principle of a 4v1. DS wouldnt be that powerful if you dont tunnel.
Personally, I've grown to the opinion of just reworking the perk, give basekit DS and let the stun last 1 second per gen remaining, disabling killer ability for 2 seconds per gen remaining. The second bit wont do much for killers like Trapper or Pig, but will do a lot for killers like Nurse and Blight.4 -
Technically you still lose a chase, even if it sounds unpleasant. However in more global scope of match this small loses/wins simply turning to a trade of resources. I always treated this game like this no matter side I’m playing. That's what somehow making this game kinda variable
I don't know about DS stun per second idea tbh. I honestly would prefer to use DS as perk, but with static effect no matter on what gen my team on. Maybe stun can reset killer cooldown of power tho, like their power was used?
0 -
It would be nice if it could be used more than once. DS is already much weaker than it was before, so killers aren’t really afraid of it and usually tunnel through it. But with how the community reacts to anything anti-tunnel, I wouldn’t hold your breath lol.
3 -
My mindset is that you want tunnelling to be as unattractive as possible. If everyone has basekit DS, then chasing someone who has not recently been hooked becomes more attractive to chase than tunnelling. The main reason tunnelling prior to the nerf was so unattractive, was because EVERYONE ran it. You would be lucky to find someone who didnt run it.
Considering DS is going to be (possibly temporary) a free for all perk, that might change up the tunnelling landscape a bit, but if the answer to combat tunnelling is that everyone runs DS, then maybe it should be basekit.
Right now, not all killers need gen regression to slow down gens, there are plenty of people who play through sheer pressure on survivors and barely run gen regression. There are still Huntresses and Nurses that only use aura perks because they are still effective enough to not require gen regression (Altho, new maps are rarely nice for Huntress) at all. Even if you somehow lose the ability of all equipped gen regression perks (because Ruin gets cleansed the first second of the game and everytime someone goes down, there is no scourge hook within reach), you can still put out enough pressure to win. It's not gonna be exactly easy, but you can still guarantee a kill, maybe even 2 if you prioritize properly.
Survivors dont really have the ability to prevent being tunnelled at all, they dont even have agency over their unhook. They cannot decline their unhook because the killer is too close and they know there are no pallets nearby. They still leave behind blood and scratchmarks, so even if they gain distance, the killer can still go for them no problem. And even if they do implement Elusive, that still wont be a deterrance for some. Crows still fly away, you still know the general direction they went in. Lockers would be really nice to use, but Lockers have mostly lost their use. Killer instinct gives them away, if they are injured they are still loud enough to be heard from quite some distance.
As for the stun per second, it just means that you get a 5 second stun at 5 gens, a 1 second stun at 1 gen, that way DS always has value when there are gens remaining even if you didnt get to use it yet. I do think a 4-5 second stun is far too long when there are only 2 gens remaining, but a 3-4 second stun is too short from the get-go.1 -
So now we flipping situation in a way of more semantic meaning?
Again, this is you deserting your own argument.
The very start was you talking about 'using it aggressively', which you didn't do in this oh-so-important practical example because the killer actively chose to tunnel you off hook. You used it defensively.
In reality of this game where everything on timer and you commit to decisions based on info
I would like to point out here that you are basically arguing that not having anti-tunnel makes this decision-making process entirely moot, since it would just default to 'always tunnel'.
That the point of me calling this forced, because actual player can’t do the right play in such case.
Funny way of arguing that, because…
Sure, 4.4 killer MUST to search for healthy surv nearby ignoring injured person, because random from forum knew about DS and said there are a specific way of how to play around it.
You also seem to be perfectly content in calling this the wrong play.
So if your options are 'eat DS' or 'Chase someone else' and this is how you paint 'chase someone else', you do have a very, very clear idea of which is the 'right play'.
DS creates a situation where it provides additional obstacle for killer.
Survivor perk benefits survivors, more news at 11!
My respect is in not exposing full info I’ve seen.
Listen, girl, if you run into a conversation and you publicly declare 'I'm not going to tell mom and dad what little brother did with the cookie jar while they were out last night', then mom and dad already know what happened.
You have already spilled the beans. You've already told everyone. The only reason you won't come out and write it down is because you want to convince yourself that you're being respectful.
'Keeping it to yourself' and 'constantly referring to it and alluding to it' are mutually exclusive.
If I went around constantly saying 'I won't say what I know about your history with ban evasion', would you consider me 'respectful' for not spelling it out for everyone? Or would you be angry that I'm implying you're a ban evader?
3 -
Let's return the topic to constructive and on-topic commentary, please.
-2 -
If you’re playing a weak killer at a high level vs high level survivors you’re not getting a win without tunneling unless they make a ton of mistakes and you make almost none.
1 -
I've never understood this take, personally.
Surely if you're playing against a genuinely high level team, you have less leeway to tunnel, because they're the only ones who reasonably can counter tunnelling?
Ditto for playing an actually weak killer - if it's actually a weak killer and not just a middle of the pack killer, you definitionally don't have much to help you tunnel out a survivor who is already skilled at overcoming the harder chase that comes with being tunnelled.Those players are the ones you'd avoid trying to tunnel because they're used to it, equipped to deal with it, and thus harder to actually get a tunnel out on.
Either way it doesn't really matter- that kind of team is very rare so I'd take that edge case if it means making anti-tunnel stronger tbh
3 -
I'm seeing this go two different ways. One side it would make it better if it was buffed to be used multiple times or a longer stun duration. On the other side though if it gets too strong and every survivor player starts using it. Some players WILL weaponize the perk against the killer and it would likely result in a lot of killer players just start slugging everyone in most games just to avoid the DS. So really idk how I feel about buffing it or leaving it as is.
0 -
You need 3v1 to stand a chance against a good team. As long as the game remains in the 4v1 you will be losing gens. This is the case basically across the board and is generally the killer's first step to winning a game "optimally".
If you are going against a good team, yes, they will be well equipped to counter tunneling, but they're also going to counter everything else you try even harder.
When it will take you over a minute to secure a down on a single player, doing anything other than aiming for the fastest possible elimination is simply not viable. The best route to victory is therefore aiming for the 3v1 with as little downs as possible, which means tunneling. Even through DS.
If you have a good team with DS activating twice, you will need 5 downs (2 extra because of the 2 DS usages) to most quickly eliminate one person. And that simply is not possible on a weaker killer in the time you have.
And sure, a god tier team is rare, but an average one with DS isn't nearly as rare; and is more than enough to make the average player unable to do anything on your average killer.
-4
