Why does DS only work once?

The "skill" (if you can call it that) is in the decision-making. That's all Survivors can really do, and just one bad decision can lead to disaster, both in and out of chase. That's why I always run Kindred, to help me make more informed decisions when someone is on hook, and to help the teammates make their decision when I'm hooked.

There's all kinds of decisions you make when the Killer chases you. You're running around the pallet; do you drop it? Do you anticipate the Killer doubling back and decide to double back yourself? If you pallet-stun the Killer, do you run to the next tile or sit there and t-bag? Or do you vault over the pallet? When the Killer gets the first hit on you, do you use the speed boost to gain distance, or do you keep looping the same tile? Those are just a few of the decisions involved during chase, and you never know what decisions the Killer is going to make. That's why I say it's unrealistic for Survivors to "get gud", because you can't get good at paper/rock/scissors. The only thing they can realistically improve is their decision-making outside of chase.

It's still luck because it's your decision vs. The Killer's, not to mention they only have to win once (or twice if you start healthy). So tunneling is already heavily skewed in the Killer's favor. Survivors winning one 50/50 at a loop only earns them maybe five more seconds. And then add in the game mechanics that ensure the Killer will catch you eventually, skews it even further in their favor. So all the Survivor skill in the world won't defend against tunneling for long.

And your own decision to hide all game to avoid being tunneled, there's no skill in that.

no one said anything about hiding to avoid being tunneled, i have said many times i have been able to loop the kiiler so long that they abandon chase which means the killers tunneling doesnt work. Your saying there is no skill in looping? no skill expression in the game at all because its all luck and you think that someone like me can be lucky that often, match after match, for years which is the reason why i dont find tunneling an issue….. lol what can anyone say to that mindset? hope your luck improves?

i agree, although many killers seem to DC after they try going for me for a while, drop chase, go for someone else that can loop, 3 gens pop and game just ends. When killers drop chase with me and downs someone else fast, that survivor gets tunneled out because why would the killer go for a strong looper when they can go for the weak link? Thats playing smart. i dont have anything special that others dont have, other than time and hours of practice. i have the same perk selection as everyone else, i get the same maps as everyone else, i get the same tunneling blights like everyone else, i even get the same useless team mates in soloq that solo players often get. Which makes me wonder, how is it that i am doing ok but others are not? Apparently the hours and practice doesnt build skill levels or better game sense, it just makes me luckier the longer i play the game lol

Thats… what competition is. You are constantly at odds with an opponent, and need to continuously make decisions that elevate yourself into a more favorable position while lowering theirs when it conflicts with your own. Concepts like "mechanics that ensure the Killer will catch you eventually" are specifically designed due to the 1v4 nature of the game: Nobody is supposed to be able to run the killer for 5 gens in a balanced matchup, much like nobody is supposed to get 4K 5Gen games. The dynamic for the game just isn't built for those extremes, which is why they get pointed out as landslides that shouldn't be possible without the other side essentially allowing them to be.

There's a sharp difference between for long and for the entire match, which is why eventualities are in place to try to keep the game more in check. The game doesn't directly punish you for extending chases, it just usually requires utilizing a resource that may be consumable. The same reason why so many basekit buffs have been given to both sides, the design is to be about maximum interaction while trying to prevent extremes beyond the player's control (yes, this includes everything short of a checkmate scenario, even when temporarily limited.) Its important to keep that in perspective when not only are the two sides structurally different and at direct odds in their objective, but you have to account for both sides being human players. For everything one person finds unfair while the opponent doesn't, their opponent likely has plenty of situations they feel the same in reverse.

Thats why skill compensation is generally kept out of balance conversation unless necessary to set a baseline for the health of the game. Actively limiting more skilled players to compensate for the ones who refuse to adapt and grow is one of the easiest ways to kill a live service game, but so is ignoring it entirely when it affects core aspects like player agency. As for skill itself, it is more than mindgames and luck. Far more. Focusing on them while ignoring everything that leads to them (positioning, available resources, allies/multiple opponents, even just the distinction of micro vs macro play goes outside that limitation.) As killer, if your perspective on the other 3 survivors is mindgames and luck while only focusing on the one, you will lose a lot more than you win, which is ironically the main way to punish hard tunneling as the other 3 players. You can't be on all 4 at once, and the entire reason tunneling is so desirable is because it removes one player's potential from the match as fast as possible. Skill isn't even limited to the mechanical, as simple things like understanding proper routing can easily be the difference between reaching a resource and buying more time, as well as catching up to a survivor in that same scenario where you don't waste time around corners, through windows, or traversing the map in general. Its literally why mobility killers eat so good in the current meta, and is an element of skill that has plenty of agency by itself. And thats not even getting into more advanced aspects like killer specific interactions, just general interaction vs most of the cast with perks/items/addons/etc being modifiers in either direction on a given interaction.

I feel like the misunderstanding of skill as a concept, as well as the self imposed limits on it, are where the disagreement stems from. Considering the hyperbolic assumption that you need to avoid both the killer and the gens to avoid the possibility of tunneling (something that can only happen to 1 out of 4 players in a given match at any given time) it seems like the perspective might honestly be the main thing holding you back. If a killer tries tunneling you and you fare well and waste their time, they are forced to either detatch and find a better opportunity or overcommit and lose for it. Again, winning and losing aren't about the entity's endgame message and honestly this mentality is exactly why many people miss the old and busted emblem focus instead of the MMR one.

 I agree that BHVR could be clearer about what they consider tunneling beyond the brief examples they showed in that livestream.

I’m not opposed to adding conditions instead of giving DS a flat second use, but I am a bit hesitant. Anti-tunnel perks are already expected to meet strict conditions to avoid abuse, while tunneling itself has almost no built-in conditions. People are quick to point out how anti-tunnel could be abused, but far less willing to acknowledge that tunneling itself can also be abused. That difference in standards is a big part of why progress on anti-tunnel never seems to get anywhere. 

For many players that advocate for tunneling , it isn’t seen as a problem at all, or abusive in anyway, regardless if it happens at five gens. When the strategy itself isn’t viewed as abusable, any solution is rejected regardless if it’s good or not.

So I agree that clearer definitions matter, but I feel that standard has to apply both ways, which I think is also what you’re saying too. If we’re going to be precise about when anti-tunnel is exploitative/abusable, we also need to be precise about when tunneling is exploitative/abusable. 

Maybe the 2nd DS is only active at certain points in the game, reflected upon gen states? If it’s early game then both DS can be active, late-end game it doesn’t activate at all. (DS is already disabled like this anyway). It ties the protection to clear game states, which could address abuse concerns without leaving tunneling completely unrestricted? 

 People are quick to point out how anti-tunnel could be abused, but far less willing to acknowledge that tunneling itself can also be abused.

I don't mind being one of the less willing to instead agree to this. Honestly I feel a lot of people who don't advocate for such would also more silently agree with it as well. Thats why some people want both a carrot and stick simultaneously regarding the tunneling conundrum, its a complex issue both in its action and reaction to the game around it.

That difference in standards is a big part of why progress on anti-tunnel never seems to get anywhere. 

Exactly. Unfortunately, this also affects most disagreements on ways to address or improve aspects of the game. Too much us vs them, too little attempts to find common ground and make Plato proud.

For many players that advocate for tunneling , it isn’t seen as a problem at all, or abusive in anyway, regardless if it happens at five gens. When the strategy itself isn’t viewed as abusable, any solution is rejected regardless if it’s good or not.

True, but I feel that is a focus on a vocal minority which then conflates arguments. Even with how I feel about it being unhealthy for the game, I also feel like its a symptom of bigger issues in the overall game itself. It is essentially a tool that is only as maligned as the person utilizing it, much like any meta strategy in the game's history. Thats not at all to say it doesn't need change, just that people tend to be laser focused in their approach to it regardless of the game around it. Basically, in an ideal game it wouldn't even be considered meta, but so many alternatives have been kneecapped while survivors similarly lost unreasonably strong answers to it, leaving both sides kinda unhappy with its current state.

Its part of why I commonly refer to it as a lowest common denominator strategy, commonly complained about effective strategies like camping and tunneling are the first things even new players think of, while not requiring much skill to perform well with in most cases. Thats also why I try to encourage people to fight through it, as poor players tunneling can and will crumble as their skill requirement rises. Its just a situation that most people refuse to see how much agency they still have, and instead focus on the worst possible outcome as infallable. In fighting games that is known as a scrub mentality, and I don't like pointing it out as it gets conflated with whatever flavor of skill issue/git gud/etc people want to reduce it to.

So I agree that clearer definitions matter, but I feel that standard has to apply both ways, which I think is also what you’re saying too. If we’re going to be precise about when anti-tunnel is exploitative/abusable, we also need to be precise about when tunneling is exploitative/abusable. 

Exactly. Finding a baseline that all reasonable parties agree upon is foundational to being able to address complex issues with opposing considerations. No matter what role or player experience level, if you can't agree on things as simple as classifications it just leads to talking past one another.

Maybe the 2nd DS is only active at certain points in the game, reflected upon gen states? If it’s early game then both DS can be active, late-end game it doesn’t activate at all. (DS is already disabled like this anyway). It ties the protection to clear game states, which could address abuse concerns without leaving tunneling completely unrestricted? 

In terms of hypotheticals, I like trying to focus perks made for specific utilities to center around them as closely as possible. Those are good considerations, since the idea is to focus on its application to preventing early game tunneling specifically, as that is generally considered the most reasonably understood application of using tunneling in an oppressive manner, while reducing its impact as a catch up mechanic later in a match. My only concern would be the whole aggressive use argument, which causes people to completely shut out reason when discussing unintentional applications of the perk.

Even smaller considerations like giving the perk some type of premature expiration: Maybe something like another person getting hooked while its active cuts the perk short, with a short speed burst for a second or two to reposition further away from the hook: as the killer needs to be doing the hook animation at this time, and the previously unhooked survivor has a global indication of their exact position, this would further fulfil its anti-tunnel properties while addressing things like objective denial not counting as conspicuous actions. Basically things that wouldn't affect normal play, but specifically target purpose exploitation of concepts like mental stack. Even something as simple as not have to keep multiple DS timers in the back of their mind on top of everything else could do a lot to help alleviate pushback on the killer side, especially since adding to the potential amount of DSes per match would only inflate those types of considerations.

Necessity is the mother of invention, which is why I'm always dumfounded how blanket and basic a lot of official solutions that get tested end up being. By having conditions for things like activation, disabling, prevention, and even allowing and preventing stacking, the foundation for across the isle considerations are there, even in regards to things specifically designed to aid one side vs the other. The issue always stems from the improvements to one disregarding the grievances of the other, a "wait your turn" approach to issues that leaves players feeling ignored at best, exacerbating existing issues at worst. And like we agree, a lot of it stems from finding that common ground to start with.

no one said anything about hiding to avoid being tunneled

You did. In this thread, first page. "killer cant tunnel what they cant find."

Basekit counters include

stealth, killer cant tunnel what they cant find.

looping, a killer tunneling a good looper often leads to them losing the match or abandoning chase which stops the tunneling.

the team as a whole is basekit for survivor, body blocks, unhooking at the right time, flashlight saves just to name a few.

The reason your narrative here isn't resonating with people outside of you and one other person (as far as I can tell this is the sum and total of "others who [supposedly] have no issue with tunneling") is because none of this reliably works in practice.

Conspicuously absent from anything you talk about is "being efficient with your time", like gluing yourself to a gen while the killer is tunneling. I.e. "gen rush". Which is the only true way to beat tunneling.

It really smacks of "how do you do fellow survivors" to encourage people to waste time being inefficient instead of "just do gens", which is the only real answer to tunneling.

When the killer decides to tunnel, survivors need to take that time with no pressure on anyone else and do gens as fast as possible. That's the actual answer you keep suspiciously dancing around.

that also says just 1 of many ways to counter tunneling, since then the discussion has been about looping and how a good looper can counter tunneling or not and i have said i have looped the killer long enough for them to abandon chase. This is nothing to do with hiding. hiding to avoid tunneling is a seperate tactic and not what this discussion in about

i understand the point of being lucky getting that one off good chase now and then, maybe have a lucky map now and then, like you said that chase isnt what normally happens. But is it possible for someone to be that lucky and get good chases so often for months or years that makes tunneling a non issue? if your honestly saying there is no skill expression in the game and its luck then im curious how a new player with like 50 hours doesnt get this luck while players with thousands of hours somehow do? luck doesnt discriminate by hours or time practiced. yes there is luck involved like everything but to say its all luck and there is nothing the player can do to change it doesnt add up when players are starting out really bad at the game and over time they get better. luck doesnt do that, it doesnt get better over time, skill does.

with all honesty, im over 12k hours, playing both sides, in my opinion, after being hooked the first time DS should activate for 55sec, give it 5s Stun and its perfect, now listen, After Second Hook Stage DS should be 70Sec and 7s Stun, which will increase the Value of the Mori Offerings by default, forgot to mention that DS stays 1 Time Use, if u want to make it for 2 stages then Ds then it should be 40sec per stage with 4sec stun.

I actually agree. The skill check should be removed. I mean you are legit taking a perk for anti tunneling. At least give us the effect lmao. That is like failing deliverance to get off the hook

So by that logic all Killer perks should be active and not require a successful chase first right?

See the issue with survivors like this, is that none of you want to manage resources you just want to auto-win the game. You don't want the killer to chase you, don't want them to be allowed to hit you, and they aren;t allowed to pick you up either.

Do you see why people consider you whiny? You want to play a game, where you expect all of the game mechanics to stop working so you can win. Thats whiny loser behavior.

DS is not unconditional, buddy. It costs a hookstate to use, and requires the killer to activate it. Even with two activations, this is a far steeper cost than most killer perks have.