http://dbd.game/killswitch
For those of you that say The First is balanced, I have a question.
Can you please explain the counterplay from the survivor side? I've played 6 matches against him as survivor so far (I will play more) and have not really dodged a single attack (once exception listed below). I've played once as him and it was a quite easy 4k for me on my first try.
For his vine attack, I've just never dodged it unless the killer put it way far away from me. But if it's anywhere close, it seems like as soon as I see where it's being placed, I already get hit.
For his Undergate attack, it seems dodge-able only if I have a Sprint Burst ready. With Sprint Burst, it's pretty easy to dodge. But of course if I'm exhausted or don't have the perk, I've never been able to get out of the radius in time, even if I see him coming and am ready to run. I hope I'm not required to bring Sprint Burst to every trial from now on.
This isn't an inflamed "NERF KILLER!!!" post, I'm genuinely confused about other people's experience compared to mine, since it seems like a good number of people are happy with where he is. If it's just a skill issue sure that's fine, but what's the secret? What do I have to practice to be able to last more than 10 seconds against him?
Thanks!
Answers
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Break line of sight, be unpredictable, and do your best to maintain distance. Try not to get caught in locations where you can only move in a couple directions. If you have ever heard someone describe how to counter nurse its a similar idea. The vine attack is much more on the killer to hit than you to dodge it, your goal is to make hitting it as hard as possible. If they land it on you there is basically no way to dodge out in time unless you are already close to the edge. Pallets and windows should only be used to increase the distance between you and the killer, if you are animation locked its basically a free hit, only use these resources if the killer has just used their m2 or you don't think they are currently able to hit you or are unlikely to be expecting you to do so.
The undergate attack only seems to be a guaranteed hit if they start it directly underneath you, though it seems inconsistent. Otherwise you can usually escape by running in a straight line, if you can't run in a straight line because of walls you are likely to just get hit. Killers will sometimes try to trick you into double backing at the wrong time in order to make you unable to get out.
Ultimately, it comes down to mind games, don't be where the killer thinks you will be.
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Think of Pyramid Head. His attack goes through walls and is more of guess than actuall counterplay. On paper it sounds insanely broken yet it's not. Counterplay to Vecna will be just different than to most killers. But I think he's overall well balanced and have valuable ingame counterplay where you can lower time his power deals damage by 75 %, which is huge. Underground attack is only punishment to greedy survivors, which is fine for me.
3 -
look down to dodge the vine with undergate you have to learn how to double back
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honestly, he reminds me of nurse. being unpredictable with movement, losing line of sight, really helped me play against him. for the underworld attack, he HAS to be precise to land an attack, 9 times out of 10 you will run out of the AOE before he emerges.
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This killer is actually very easy to counterplay! All you have to do:
- Just don't get found, silly!
- Always have your sprint burst ready!
- Finish all 5 gens before he finishes killing you all!
As you can see, this killer is pretty balanced and possible to counterplay, so no need to nerf him.
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I think the problem is his potential for snowball. healing is very unsafe against this killer, yet tremendously necessary. getting hit while healing someone else either let's vecna hit you for damage next shot or make you lose both a health state. this in turn makes it so easy for him to simply equip infectious fright or the krasue perk for auras and simply shoot everyone in the vicinity with his range. his slug is gonna be crazy. and he doesn't even have to move unless you are getting distance on him. he is crazy strong and i don't think he will be released as is.
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For the Vine attack, he's slower than you while holding it and incurs a movement speed penalty if he cancels it, so while it's charged, you don't have to worry about getting M1ed. Move unpredictably and fake interactions, basically everything you'd do against Pyramid Head.
For his Undergate attack, it seems dodge-able only if I have a Sprint Burst ready.
Even without an Exhaustion perk, as long as you run in a straight line outside of the Undergate Attack radius it's a guaranteed dodge every single time. I played a lot of matches as Survivor and could dodge it >90% of the time, I was not running any exhaustion perks either, as I was mainly testing the new ones.
2 -
Sprint Burst sounds like it would be great against him, especially if you 99% it. Dead Hard can be good for an extra hit too, since his attack is telegraphed. Overall it's a similar gameplay to nurse. You have to play more stealthy and avoid chases as much as possible, especially early game. You should not give him free hits because the faster he gets hits the faster he enters worldbreaker which is a huge problem.
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Pretend it's a Nurse.
And act accordingly.
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all i can see happening is mass dc's and go nexts because no one wants to verse nurse 2.0.
if he gets buffed to live after everyone saying it's basically the same gameplay/counterplay as nurse i'm gonna scream
-2 -
Playing against him all week on PTB, I find him the most fun Killer to verse in a very long time; it's a constant game of 2 players out-predicting each other and learning each others' behaviors.
Think of it as, you as a Survivor have two different goals for what you're attempting to do with the Killer between when Worldbreaker mode is active or inactive.
When First begins charging his attack in either mode, he makes a clear visual cue, and incredibly loud audio cue, and is slowed down significantly while holding his M2. Not to mention, he is already a 110% movement speed killer instead of 115% so faking his power can have good payoffs but failure is incredibly risky.
Outside of Worldbreaker mode, as long as a Survivor is running away from the center of his Vine Attack as long as it is coming, the Survivor will ALWAYS have enough time to leave the Vine Attack circle. Which means, you always have a fair chance to dodge as long as you out-predict him.
Once Worldbreaker is activated, he is no longer predicting you, but rather you are predicting him.
In Worldbreaker, the Vine Attacks and Undergate Attack trigger significantly faster, meaning a perfectly-placed Vine Attack is guaranteed to hit a Survivor, but they're not impossible to dodge if he misses. Which means now, your goal as Survivor is to not react to the circles on the ground, but to trick the Killer into thinking you're going to be somewhere you're not actually planning on going, so he mis-predicts.Honestly, this is no different from many other Killers whose effectiveness is not up to how well the Survivor players but rather up to how well the Killer doesn't miss with enhanced powers: Oni, Trickster, and Doctor are some that come to mind. These are three Killers that guarantee hits as long as someone competent is behind the wheel of the Killer and never misses.
Outside of Worldbreaker mode, the only way any of First's powers can land a hit is if the Survivors mess up. His powers only hit if Survivors double back into his power or if they never run away from it. Plain and simple, honestly, the numbers just work out that way. If you're getting hit, give it some time, you'll eventually learn the timing and get better at dodging.
The First's goal, outside of Worldbreaker mode, is to create mindgames that trick you into running into HIS power, because he can't get a hit off otherwise. Expect that he's going to try to get you to double back into his power, or that he might expect you to expect that, and play around that. Learn the behavior of your opponent - you get to tank 2 free damage-less hits before triggering Worldbreaker. That should hopefully be enough time to learn how your opponent plays.
That said, outside or inside of Worldbreaker mode, if Survivors start reacting to the visual/audio cues that come with First CHARGING his power and not simply the circles they see on the ground, they should have ample ability to dodge, create mindgames and trick the Killer into overpredicting.
Preventing First from entering Worldbreaker mode at all is your KEY to success.
Break line of sight, run unpredictably, get distance, play mindgames, expect mindgames and expect aura reading perks.
This Killer is NOT impossible to go against. Any Killer that breaks the conventional "loop in endless mindless circles" meta is going to meet resistance because looping is comfortable, we like running in circles. Survivors like the pallet! But there needs to be more Killers that challenge us on what we think DBD Killers can be (so we stop complaining any time we don't get any more dashslop - which in turn gets us more dashslop!) and First is precisely that.
I genuinely think First's base power (without addons) is perfectly balanced on PTB. Survivors haven't yet learned how to counter him, and this is just going to come with time - this is a very similar situation to Unknown. Unknown seemed pretty decent on PTB, but that turned out largely to be because players have never played against an AoE projectile before. Give it almost two years later and Unknown's power is surprisingly weak and he now falls behind because players have learned how to counter him.
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