Why was the discussion arguing that MMR should be made visible removed?
Is it because MMR is that much of a can of worms?
Comments
-
Yup. They are afraid to show MMR to the public in fear of some honestly stupid reasons. What they fear would happen with MMR being visible already happens albeit in different ways and honestly it's worse the way it is.
9 -
mmr is not as meaningful as people think it is. you escape a few games and suddenly you're put into matches with survivors who can't survive for 5 seconds in chase against all the 10,000 hour killers in the game. and if you lose a few of those games you suddenly get put into matches with the 10,000 hour survivors and low skill killers who struggle to get a single hook all game. this is the mmr system and it's a joke honestly.
further, your rating is literally only based on the performance of your last dozen or so games. your mmr is therefore not mysterious at all.
6 -
Maybe that's why they won't make mmr visible
1 -
I like how they remove discussions but dont comment on popular discussions about real game issues like Ghoul
7 -
Let's be honest, MMR isn't a thing. This game favors queue times over all else. People just convinced themselves MMR was real because they needed an excuse for losing. "I lost because I was put in the wrong MMR".
6 -
How MMR works has actually been figured out at some point. There are several youtube videos about it and there were ways in the past to get your mmr that have since been patched out. So we know it exists at the very least.
0 -
Good question. A mod commented in that thread so I don't think there was anything wrong with it. Maybe people started to get heated and they closed it? I don't know who the OP was but if it was a newer account and they edited it then it will have been sent to be reviewed.
0 -
Don’t the mods usually add a comment and then close the thread rather than deleting it altogether? The fact that it was removed entirely is disturbing and continues a pattern of complete lack of transparency on the MMR/matchmaking issue. I guess they don’t want open discussion about what is IMO the biggest issue in the game.
4 -
yeah, real mmr matchmaking was scrapped because people like Dowsey had 2 hour wait on Twins.
I feel like people have forgotten that survivor games uses to take 10 minutes at night back in 2021-2022. id be fine waiting for quality matches
6 -
We saw the uproar and outcry over simply the PTB to limit tunneling and how outage people got.
I think that they understand at some level that those reactions wouldn't even hold a candle to the reaction people would have to revealing MMR to players.
Because revealing to people who think they're "Max MMR" and "struggling because the game is broken" that, "sorry, you're actually silver fighting like crazy to break into gold while the deck is actively stacked in your favor" would actually cause people to melt down and quit.
4 -
Bhvr said once that they hate people showing off stats and invalidating eachother.
But then doing stuff like dbd stats and revealing info anyway
Wierdly enough, no one has come out to show their stats (atleast from what i have seen).
So either everyone is scared to be invalidated,
Its pointless to show them,
Or no one cares for that one thing...somehow....
2 -
A lot of people don't want to share their stats, because it would invalidate their arguments. Imagine someone telling us that "Nurse is S-tier", and "is broken for anyone that spends a few hours with them"…. but that person's stats reveal their performance with Nurse isn't very good, and in fact they have multiple "not S-tier" killers with better stats.
Imagine someone telling us that "solo q is impossible", but their stats reveal their escape rates aren't really that much better in a SWF.
-4 -
Wouldnt that same arguement hold with mmr not wanting to be shown?.
1 -
Bhvr said once that they hate people showing off stats and invalidating eachother.But then doing stuff like dbd stats and revealing info anywayThere's a pretty big difference between individuals bragging/using their stats to demean others and providing information on the overall status of the game.
Wierdly enough, no one has come out to show their stats (atleast from what i have seen).I've seen plenty of people post their stats, unfortunately it doesn't tell us much.
The survivor side has been messed up by how BHVR counts abandons and, though probably to a lesser degree, players willingness to rat.
The killer side bolsters a player if they are willing to slug for the 4k or not.
Neither of the above generally get considered to be reflections of skill, but they can subtantially impact the numbers.
5 -
Yes. If someone complains about playing against "S-tier" Nurse killers, but the game reveals they were playing against average MMR Nurse players, then the survivor didn't play against S-tier Nurses, and instead just played against average Nurses, which usually don't have a really great kill rate.
Does everyone remember how much complaints Nurse got every week, before her giant list of nerfs happened? The reason why the complaints went down so much, is because the reality is that her performance usually isn't very great in the majority of the public games.
I would be bold enough to say that the majority of players would do better playing as Myers than Nurse. This game desperately needs to have a separate tier list for average MMR, so the majority of players can actually have a tier list that is relevant to them.
-4 -
people have shown their stats, myself included. The issue is the stat tracker is incorrect which makes the stats meaningless. Does tie in with BHVR logic of not wanting people to know MMR and not wanting people to know accurate personal stats which is probably why they have kept MMR hidden and still not fixed the stat tracker to show correct stats.
1 -
Even if we did that, people would have a problem with if it doesnt support what they say.
1 -
maybe, but currently the stats are being used in this way anyway. People say soloq is impossible, tunneling is unbeatable yet my soloq survivor stats show escape rates of 60% to 70% which far higher then the 40% target bhvr sets. im sure people have an issue with these stats showing the opposite of what they are saying.
-2 -
If someone complains about playing against "S-tier" Nurse killers, but the game reveals they were playing against average MMR Nurse players, then the survivor didn't play against S-tier Nurses, and instead just played against average Nurses, which usually don't have a really great kill rate.
This is now the second thread you've posted in where your argument is essentially "ignore any feedback unless the player is the best in the game".
Personally, I don't think that ignoring the average player (or really any level of player) based on skill level is warranted. Something can be more or less difficult to deal with base on player ability, yet it may or may not be easy or feasible to adjust for every skill level. For example, new player experience is important too.
You're also using "s tier" in two different ways. Almost always this is a measure of potential. The killer kit is s tier, regardless of the player's ability to use it. But you are also arguing here that new nurses are not "s tier".
Don't confuse ability for potential, because otherwise you could argue that nothing in the game is "s tier" or "good" simply because new players exist. (Which., for the record, would include broken things like old dead hard for distance, for example).
how much complaints Nurse got every week, before her giant list of nerfs happened
I'm going to need you to write out this "giant list".
Because there was exactly and only one nerf to nurse, about 2(?) years ago now, where her blink attack went from being a basic attack to a special attack. The end result was that she went from being s-tier, best killer in the game, to still s-tier and either #1 or #2 depending on how you subjectively place blight. The horror.
The only other change to the character since 6.1.0 was removing lightburn, which was a buff.
Any other changes to the nurse are from like 7-8 years ago when she had 6 blinks. Or things like "she gets base 5% regression on kick and anti gen tap" that applies to all killers.
5 -
If killers should be balanced around potential, then survivors should be also balanced around potential, which means balancing survivors as if they were all 4-SWFs that use voice comms for competitive callouts.
And if the new player experience should be balanced around potential, then when new killer players complain about survivors being too strong, then we should automatically focus on the 6,000+ hour 4-SWF survivors that use voice comms for competitive callouts.
-6 -
I'm not saying balance around potential at all.
The "tier" ranking system that this community is obsessed with is entirely and purely subjective. It's only vaguely a measure of power scale, and honestly more a measure of how strong people think something is than how strong it actually is.
What you actually use to balance anything is objective data and stats.
Which is why you can separate the data for something like nurse and say that, at high MMR nurse can be nearly unstoppable on a small, open map, and at low MMR newer players struggle to perform. That's what the data says, why her (all MMR) kill rates seem low, despite her still being considered "one of the best killer in the game".
And there are sometimes ways to make changes that target particular skill levels. Nurse specifically has the Flannel add-on designed to help newer players, who can use it until they no longer need it. Alternately, changing something like hug tech affects the top end of players and largely doesn't impact her players at all. Though this isn't always possible to "target" and changes usually impact more than one group or all players.
Not surprising that you jump on SWF, given your history, but even there the data says that groups aren't performing significantly better than BHVR wants them to. In fact, the most recent data sites that there was a weak correlation to doing slightly worse than solo in a group.
Which is why we should use data and not subjective anything.
4 -
Why are you comparing high MMR nurse players with low MMR newer survivors? That is exactly the same thing as comparing high 4-SWF 6,000+ hour voice comm teams with low MMR newer killers.
Average MMR killers should be compared to average MMR survivors. And average MMR Nurse players generally don't have a really good kill rate (which is shown in official stats).
-7 -
Why are you comparing high MMR nurse players with low MMR newer survivors?
I can tell you didn't read a thing I wrote, because my examples of this are to show why you shouldn't be basing balance decisions based on potential on the character alone.
Nowhere do I compare killers to survivors. I compare killers to killers. I didn't even mention survivors except to wonder why you're jumping on "SWF", and clearly your just trying to curve the conversation that direction since you haven't responded to any of the points I've made debunking your claims and being up things I never even said.
I also use nurse as an example of how you could use add-ons to target a particular group (new nurse players) without significantly impacting other groups (veteran nurse players who don't need the indicator).
That is exactly the same thing as comparing high 4-SWF 6,000+ hour voice comm teams with low MMR newer killers.
It's not though. Especially since
A) the data we do have is that SWF is not significantly out performing anymore, so I'm not sure why this even comes up. People don't suddenly become better at the game when grouped with friends. And that's what the data says.
B) I'm not comparing survivors to killers at all. I'm comparing nurse players with thousands of hours to nurse players with 4 hours. This is just you trying to turn this into an us vs them, when it isn't.
C) no one has ever put forth a single idea that would "nerf SWF but leave solo completely the same". This is just a dog whistle phrase for "need survivors entirely" but that sounds far more entitled.
4 -
I don't know why tthey'd remove the post, but I can guess a few reasons they wouldn't want it visible.
This community is already obsessed with throwing MMR around as a way to insult others and boost themsleves. Some of these people might get a humbling if it became visible, but the ones that don't will be unbearable, using it to reduce everyone below them with even more assuredness. It will be treated more like a caste system than it already is.
Aside from argument issues, you could also intentionally throw matches to keep your MMR right below a certain threshold so your matches stay easier, which isn't super healthy for the game. Intentional manipulation is probably the bigger issue. I'm sure plenty of people already do this, but it would get worse.
2 -
Bhvr said once that they hate people showing off stats and invalidating eachother
Then they shouldn't have made the stat page, which they keep updating and promoting.
Wierdly enough, no one has come out to show their stats (atleast from what i have seen).
People drop their stats pretty much daily here, particularly to invalidate those who complain about soloq. Ironically, survivor stats are inflated on the stat page, and even people who know that still do it.
3 -
Why would Nurse's potential at the highest MMR, be relevant for newer players that are at low MMR?
-1 -
If that’s the case, BHVR needs to recognize that harassment has actually increased now that MMR is not visible.
When someone posts a screenshot of getting a 4K with a new Chucky build, people immediately dismiss it with insults like, “That just means the survivors had low MMR.” This makes it clear that the current situation is far more serious.
0 -
"Harassment" is a bit of a strong word for what you're describing, but in the same way MMR assumptions are used against people, so will MMR facts be used against the game. A killer could get stomped by four survivors in a lower bracket and use that to argue that survivor is busted. Same thing with four higher survivors against a lower killer. The argument manipulation and cherry-picking will get worse than it already is.
MMR only has 4 brackets, which is way too narrow, and the gains and losses are also too loose, being only escapes and kills and nothing about actual performance. If you slug 4 survivors and they all abandon, you get a 4k on your stats and 0 MMR increase. If you go out of your way to escape through hatch every match, your MMR stays low even if you're cracked. The system is not great and people are probably in brackets they don't belong in. Maybe if the upcoming MMR rework is stellar, sure, but as it is, the info will probably do more harm than good.
4 -
The entire point you’re making in the second half can’t even be debated when MMR isn’t visible in the first place, lol.
0 -
These are facts? We do know some things about how the system works even if we can't see the numbers. We know that hatch gives no MMR. We know bots give no MMR. We know it's only kills and escapes that count. We know there are four brackets. There are videos where people say they keep their MMR low on purpose, so we know people are already manipulating the system. And pretty much everyone agrees the matchmaking is bad regardless.
1 -
This might sound kinda philosophical, but if you can’t see it, it basically doesn’t exist.
I get what you’re saying, but as long as MMR stays invisible, no matter how much it improves, people are just gonna keep saying, “MMR doesn’t work.”
-1
