Why are we shaming killers instead of survivors?
In my few years of playing dbd in eu servers, killers have always been the ones shamed for tunneling, camping and slugging (being called slurs and to uninstall bcs they are bad). How is it the killer that is blamed and not the survivors?
A survivor that is tunneled should be able to loop the killer, that is a proof of their skill. I get tunneled quite often when I play survivor but I understand that I have the whole map to myself: who else is gonna use the pallets if the killer only chases me?
If the killer camps (yes even proxy camps), I know that I have 2 options and will win the game:
- The anticamp bar fills up and I can simply do gens while the survivors unhooks themselves
- The killer is too far for the first option so I simply wait the last moment to trade
If the killer slugs, force locker and waste as much time as possible.
If your teammates or you don't know how to do that or that it is what to do, how is it the killer's fault and them being bad? We should start shaming the survivor's mistakes more!
Comments
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The skill required to counter tunnelling as vastly higher than the skill required to do the tunnelling. Plus, tunnelling is a choice, having to counter said tunnelling is not. You either do, or you die.
Also, generally speaking, going down is an inevitability. Especially against mobile killers, you simply will not run a killer for 5 if they're any good.
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Because survivors are the majority of the playerbase, the majority is always louder.
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Broadly, it isn't constructive or appropriate to shame any players in these contexts.
That said, the reason the killer gets shamed and not the survivors is because it's the killer who chose to try and leverage something unbalanced, which is quite frustrating to go against. It's still only appropriate to aim any criticisms at the devs, not the players, but there's an emotional reaction to getting tunnelled that only exists if you're on the receiving end of it.
For camping and slugging, sure, there's answers. Tunnelling, however, just puts you in a much harder chase because the killer decided they wanted an easier win, and that's not a reasonable thing to expect most players to deal with. You have to outperform the killer pretty considerably to beat tunnelling- at least without perks.
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How come is it easier to kill someone new rather than an unhooked person that has 15 seconds of endurance and 10% haste?
Also killers don't have a choice in the matter of weither survivors want to save on pallets or with flashbangs, sabo hooks and all of that so why are killers expected to not play a strong tactic (it isn't an exploit like some say, otherwise spreading gens and being efficient is too)
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How is it easier to chase an unhooked person with 15 seconds of haste/endurance instead of a new person? Even at basekit, the survivors is at an advantage
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should shame the devs for poor game design that results in such ridiculous discussions. you'll never see this complaint about 2v8 because they fixed the design issue there.
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The survivor starts the chase injured and out of position- that is to say, the killer starts right on top of them, or at the very least very close. When their Endurance elapses, they're a one hit down, or conversely you can hit them immediately to effectively only give them a post-hit sprint's worth of distance, which for a lot of killers isn't much.
The survivor also has a high chance of being in a deadzone, or at the very least not near any noteworthy resources. After all, a chase did just happen there before, it's why that survivor was hooked in the first place.The fifteen seconds of Endurance and Haste are why there's a chase in the first place. It's still an easier chase than targeting someone fresh, otherwise people wouldn't bother doing it.
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Again, if the killer is near hook, DO NOT UNHOOK. You should have more than enough time to get to a safe pallet with the time it takes for ANY killer to come back to hook. Again, punishing the killer for the team's mistakes…
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How come is it easier to kill someone new rather than an unhooked person that has 15 seconds of endurance and 10% haste?
New in what sense? A new install, or someone with no hooks? New installs will also get 15 secs of buffs, so Im not sure what your point is here.
If it's someone not yet hooked, then I'm even less sure what you mean 'cause that is simply not true?
Also killers don't have a choice in the matter of weither survivors want to save on pallets or with flashbangs, sabo hooks and all of that so why are killers expected to not play a strong tactic (it isn't an exploit like some say, otherwise spreading gens and being efficient is too)
Kind of a false equivalence. We're talking about being eliminated early versus being inconvenienced/stalled. Also, hook sabotages are pretty damn rare in my experience, not to mention risky. Same goes for bodyblocking. Plus, there's no way they'll be able to sabo all hooks, and if you must, you can slug. It's not like you have no options here.
When you're being tunnelled, your only options are to try to hold a chase and pray your teammates do gens, or die.
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Shouldn't be shaming anyone willing to play things out, honestly.
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That works against slow killers to some degree, but there's quite a few killers capable of closing that distance very quickly. Not even strong killers, necessarily- even a killer like Sadako can return to hook fast enough that you aren't making distance.
The cold hard fact of the matter is that being tunnelled is not your mistake. Even when a mistake was made, the killer always has the unhooker to chase as well, but it's a given that they'll choose the person who got unhooked because they're the substantially easier chase.
That's not to say I approve of the Endurance, I think it's sloppy and the ways survivors have of buffing it with perks are prone to being weaponised, but there does need to be something dissuading the killer from taking what would otherwise be a much easier chase. Otherwise they just get the free value.
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The killer is outnumbered 1-to-4. Easier to bully the lone guy than 4 different survivors at once.
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Which again, proves my point that with a good team, tunneling isn't a problem. Don't blame the killer, play the teammates jerking it to new sable skins. And for the equivalence, nobody is shaming survivors for completing gens in 5 minutes: it is praised by all, whereas the killer ending the game in 5 minutes is "no fun no skill #########"….
Finally to the sabos, killers are also being insulted for slugging, read my post…
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Sadako is an m1 killer that you should be able to win chases against easily, so I will say it only for that bcs I hate saying it, but it's a skill issue.
Now for Billy and others I can see the point and to that I say: 10% haste is enough to make it to a good pallet, otherwise you deadzoned yourself: again, nothing the killer should be insulted for, it's bad ressource management….
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I see killers shaming other killers for the same reasons tho…
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The thing with quick gens is that it's more often than not the result of the survivors having nothing else to do. One could even say that quick gens is the fault of the killer, and that seems more reasonable of a take than 'blame tunnelling on survivors'.
As for 'real' genrushing, I assure you some people do blame survivors for trying to get the gens done as quickly as humanly possible. Especially when it's against a killer without mobility.
Regarding slugging, what killers get flak for is unnecessary slugging, ie., intentionally going for bleedouts. I don't think any reasonable player is going to call you a slur for leaving them on the ground for 20 seconds.
Also, what is a 'good team' anyway? Is that remotely reasonable to expect from public matches?
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Quick gens are the result of multiple buffs for gen and healing speed as well as more info for survivors but sure it's the killer's fault for not having mobility like Blight.
I have personally received insults from players that forced me to slug (flashlights, sabos, pallet saves) so no, it's not only the "unnecessary" slug which I would like you to define btw.
As for the expectations of public matches, if survivors refuse to improve that is on them, but they will complain about counterable elements of the while doing so, resulting in poor balancing by Bhvr. My expectations from other players are to either do their best and improve and shut up, which doesn't happen.
And you don't need a team comp to win against a pub myers :)
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The killer is too far for the first option so I simply wait the last moment to trade
This can't always be done without coordination. I've see many ranged killers—Deathslingers, iri-hatchet Huntresses, and Houndmasters, in particular--who will stand right outside the range and wait with their weapon ready. You try to trade, get hit/downed, and the hooked person goes second/dies. The coordination needed to unhook them is hard to manage in soloq. The same problem exists with slugging multiple people. Even in a party, whole-team slugs happen. It's particularly hard to counter with certain aura read perks.
How is it the killer that is blamed and not the survivors?
Because the killer is making the choice to do the thing, just like a killer will blame survivors if all of them brought gen perks and Commodious toolboxes and gens got done in three minutes. Difference is, I've never actually seen that happen, yet I see tunneling, camping, and slugging every time I play survivor.
And because a 200 hour killler can tunnel out a 2000 hour survivor. The skill it takes to tunnel is generally low against most players. The skill it takes to counter it can be pretty higher depending on the killer and the person playing them.
Also, this isn't a survivor vs killer issue. Plenty of killer-players are against these tactics.
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200 hours killer can hardly get 2000 hours survivor if that survvior is solid to his hours played and didnt spend 1800+ hours hiding in the corner, what you set as comparison exsample is just putting seasoned joe who playes this game for many years (like 3-4) against baby wraith. Not to mention if that killer would get him than all gens would ne almost done or just done by that time and its clear win for survivors.
In your theory maybe 200 hours just purely on blight or nurse can work into win but we are talking here about top tier killers and still I will argue that 2k hour survivor will have enough experience and skill to loop them for long time so others can do multiple gens fast.
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Oh sure, they'll get the gens done, but the survivor wincon is currently a personal escape, so that doesn't do the dead survivor much good. The fact that a low-hour killer can get boosted to higher MMR with experienced players very quickly with little to no gamesense or skill is a problem.
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The point in bringing up Sadako isn't that she's an unstoppable tunneller. I agree, Sadako is one of the few killers you can fairly reasonably fend off a tunnel from, especially with perks.
The point is that a good majority of the roster can just decide to return to the hook and tunnel you, not just the high tiers like Billy. It's just flat out not because the team made a mistake in a lot of scenarios- it's a decision the killer can choose to make for themselves and force the issue.
As for the last part, that's not really how it works. Resources have to be used sometime, and even if you reach one it isn't necessarily going to be a good one that'll help that much. You can't avoid a deadzone if you're hooked in it.
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You are palying game where you cant 1v1 trapper and walk out like from other games, if the gens are done and that one survvior isnt near death they can still get him saved and even 1 kill is loss an win for the team you are palying team mode as survvior not "everyone fend for them slefs" mode but this sgouldnt happen if mmr works and only in swf you can get low hours survviors mostly because they paly with other survivors that have way higher mmr.
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That's cool and I agree it's a loss for the killer, but killer and survivor wincons aren't the same. I wish they were and the one tunneled survivor gets the win too, but they currently don't. They just get a death on their stats and an MMR loss. Though I very much view this game as a team one, many in soloq either don't view it as such or don't know how to properly play as a team, and the game is doing nothing to show them how. We don't even have a decent tutorial.
if mmr works
That is a big "if"
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You shouldn't escape every game, period. The game is a 4v1 so a win for survivors is 3 out or more. Yes mmr doesn't recognize that but everyone else does so you are just butt hurt at that point.
Killers aren't "boosting" their rank, they are using optimal tactics and survivors are whiny about it, just learn to loop ffs.
Then don't stay under the hook like every good survivor will tell you…. Between the time where you get unhooked and the time it takes the killer to TP, you are safe, otherwise you threw, I tested it.
Who created the deadzones in the first place? Survivors, so you didn't manage the ressources correctly and, with the amount of times I see Megs prethrowing all the pallets in areas, I can say it IS the survivor's fault, not the killer's fault. Also if you know there is a deadzone, don't die next to it, you can't be mad at the killer for taking advantage of your poor positioning. It's like if someone got mad at a sniper for shooting them when they walk in the open for a minute….
Hours don't mean ######### and you know it…
This 200 hours Wraith might be on a new account or simply changed plateform. Hours doesn't equal skill.
Deathslinger shots can be baited, houndmaster is saveable (wait for her to hit you and save during cooldown). I will give you that iri huntress is the exception, yes. You'd need 2 people for a save and that needs much more coordination. Not impossible but in soloq it is nightmarish.
This has always been a killer vs survivor issue, the killer saying that "they don't need to do that to win" are low MMR and throw their own matches which is really weird.
Are you gonna get mad in a fighting game if your opponent uses fireballs from range when your character can only do melees? Ofc! Does it mean the opponent shouldn't be able to spam fireballs? NO. It means you need to adapt and find ways to block/dodge the fireballs and get closer to hit them!
Are you gonna get mad at a sniper for shooting you in the head when you stand still? Yes. Should they throw the game and let you stand still for minutes? NO, you need to find covers, be unpredictable…
Need more analogies or do ya'll get the point?
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So again, survivors play bad, so the team suffers, yet the killer is expected to handicap themselves to be "nice" and "fair"? What are we talking about?!
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Again, the point is that the killer returning to the hook and therefore getting to tunnel you can be their decision, not your mistake.
As for the second part, I mean, resources have to be used. Deadzones being created in general isn't a mistake either, the game's designed around it. If a deadzone is created, you're supposed to avoid that area… which you can't do if you're hooked there and chased as soon as you're unhooked.
To respond briefly to your response to someone else: Modern fighting games are typically designed so that you can adapt to fireball spam, or just to limit fireball spam in general compared to older games. That'd be an example of adjusting the game to promote fairness, which is what a lot of people want with tunnelling.
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And it is the right decision so why are they expected not to do it and throw the match???
I'm sorry but if you can't escape a deadzone after being unhooked, I don't know what to tell you.
Lastly, the game has adjusted to make tunneling harder and harder but survivors want it completely gone, not just like the fireballs so yes, you proved my point…
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You shouldn't escape every game, period.
Where did I say you should?
just learn to loop ffs
Just learn to play without cheese.
And looping isn't always possible. I play as Dredge. If I wanted to, I can sit in a locker near the hook and then teleport right beside it the moment someone unhooks and surprise hit them immedialty, wasting their Endurance. If there's nothing decent nearby to use, they're screwed.
This 200 hours Wraith might be on a new account or simply changed plateform. Hours doesn't equal skill.
Smurfing and cross progression aren't the same as your genuine hour count. You can generally tell when a person's hours are legit by how they play.
wait for her to hit you and save during cooldown
You said wait until the last second. If you do that, the hooked survivor is going second/dying while the dog is dragging you. This requires a second person to do the save, and at that point the camping is working because there's one person on gens, at most.
This has always been a killer vs survivor issue, the killer saying that "they don't need to do that to win" are low MMR and throw their own matches which is really weird.
Yeah no, it isnt. Almost everyone I know plays both roles. It's a certain type of player vs another type. The best killers I've ever played against have been super skilled at applying pressure, mind gaming, and landing all their hits. The people who really want to be great at the game and don't want hollow ego-feeds are the ones who learn how to do more than just cheese.
Need more analogies or do ya'll get the point?
Games where the roles are fairly equal are not equivalent to this game.
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Refer back to my first post. Nobody should be flaming the players for taking the obvious best option. It should be on the devs to ensure that best option is better balanced, and not an obvious cheese tactic.
Don't mistake my arguments here for justifying toxicity. If you're tunnelled out, complain to your mates or on the forums, but don't be nasty to another human being about it. The most constructive thing to do with that frustration is advocate for change.
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It's not cheese… Is doubling gens cheese? Is spreading gens cheese? No, it's efficient. If the speed boost isn't enough to get out of a corner then the survivor might be bad and not avoid lockers.
Not really since people with 3000 hours have played worse than people with 300 hours.
Then you wait a little less and adapt.
I can only trust you on the part with your aquitances but even comp players agree that you need to tunnel, in settings where survivors are heavily restricted, so you can imagine in pub…
Okay let's take Friday 13th then. Is Jason expected to drop someone after grabbing them just because it's the start of the match and "It doesn't respect their playtime"? NO
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Sorry I must've misunderstood the way you said things then
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Cause survivors have nothing to do with how miserable killers make the games that are played. Easy as that.
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There's literally nothing else for survivors to do but gens unless you give them something to do, which is how pressure works. Keep people off gens, keep them unhooking and healing. It truly feels like some people have no idea how to properly engage with this game's bigger picture.
These two things also aren't the same. Three gens can get done with the killer getting no hooks and they can not only still play but still win. A tunneled survivor can't play anymore, and an early tunnel usually decides a match, trapping three people in a hopeless match. So you have four unhappy people because of one person's choice. No other multiplayer I've ever played has robbed players of agency like this one has.
How would you like someone to avoid a locker that they're hooked right next to when the killer can instantly teleport to it after an unhook? Not to mention most good tiles, as well as shack, have lockers. Good luck avoiding them.
The comp players can do whatever they please. The game's balance should revolve around regular, average players.
You really aren't going to be able to compare this game to any game because it 1) has been around for a decade and has a lot of baggage and emotion tied to it 2) has a bigger playerbase than any competitor and 3) all of its competition has died and therefore doesn't make for great comparisons.
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Thats because the foundation on results as win and loss condition was choosen long time before with kills/escapes so even if killer plays very well and has 8 hooks or 6 he will still loose or have worse result than if he would just got two kills and same for survviors instead the game would count the results in match and count them like gen progress done, chase time and healing etc. but instead its just escapes and deaths so survivor that does very little and hides whole game and escapes through hatch or gates after the hatch is closed gets better results than the one guy who was looping the killer the longest time and died.
Some content creators talked about this like trutalent (before he was framed for hating idians and banned from fog whispear) he talked 2021-2022 about making game more around hooks and not kills and giving killers some small reward after hook so they dont tunnel all these ideas he had way before devs started cooking their antitunnel changes but its hard thing and he wasnt much liked at first place, so thats just the thing the win codition is set around and these are the results because nothing just beats tunneling in its effectiveness
but thats something thats known for long time and for mmr well sometimes it works and sometimes there is just some abnormal anomaly but i get if there arent people with the closest skill in time so game just puts someone other togeather so the queue times arent as in ptb or in 2v8 as killer.
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I agree. I often said that True got some good points with the win con should be hooks not kills.
But back to the topic.
The case of trying to put the blame away onto the team is deep rooted here. Just look at games like League of Legends. Before someone tries to take the blame for a horrible play they try to blame anyone and anything else but in the same sentence they try to justify that they should be Challenger.
Yeah it can be frustrating to get tunneld out and I try from time to time to explain why the Killer does this and try to improve my looping skills. And if you think about this. If the Killer to manages to 3 hook the same Survivor before one single gen is done. The game would have been lost in any case because that means that no one touched a gen or that the tunneld survivor didn´t stand a chance even with all pallets up.
Here is the List what a Killer has to do before the "omnipresent" tunneld out at 5 gens can happen:
- find a survivor
- hit him twice, while the Survivor got a Sprint for getting hit
- picks them up
- carrys them to the hook and hooking them
- waits till the survivor gets unhooked (this can take up to 70 seconds)
- hits the borrowed time which gives a sprint burst again
- downs the survivor again
- picks them up again
- carrys them to the hook and hooking them again
- and repeats all that for a third time
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Pretty much I agree tunneling one survivor out can take few minutes at worst for the survivors so thats solid time for others to do gens if the survivor who is tunneled doesnt go down after unhook in 20 seconds and the hooking part plus time for hook stage can take like 60-110 seconds which isnt bad time.
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