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Would Buffing D, C and B tier killers really break the game?

Rickprado
Rickprado Member Posts: 1,000
edited January 31 in General Discussions

Hi, hope everyone is doing fine!

I was watching a video discussing how many killers could have basekit addons and it came to my mind on how so many characters on the killer roster are still dependent on addons and how some of them are weak as hell.

Would really "break" the game if Trapper could start all of his trap, Ghostface had more 6 addons as basekit, Pig had her dash addons basekit and so on? I've been playing Dracula (and some Ghoul eventually) recently and the difference between him an other lower killers is night and day. Even against toolboxes and BNPs i feel i have a chance when the Dark Lord is my choice, different from other who i really like as Legion or Wraith.

I know SoloQ has some issues but buffing weaker killers would really ""break"" DBD?

Below a tierlist from a Brazilian content creator i really like, to foster discussion:

(EDIT: This tierlist was made during the Stranger Things Vecna PTB)

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Thanks for the attention!!

Comments

  • Crowman
    Crowman Member Posts: 10,170

    Would it break the game itself? Probably not. However, buffs may not fix the core issue and that is the difference in power between top tier killers and lower tier killers. With a band as large as what we currently have, actual balance is practically impossible.

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 4,688

    It wouldn't, but it would take creativity to do so in ways that don't blanket buff the higher tiers as well, so it'll probably just be a rework or two every 1-2 years, most of which will need to be either partially or fully scrapped, some re-re-(re?)worked, and it'll become a drop in the bucket because some unrelated perk/map/item/etc will power creep the changes by the time they happen. The balancing approach we've been seeing in normalizing the roster's extremes has been the equivalent of throwing buckets of water on a burning building at this point.

  • Raptorrotas
    Raptorrotas Member Posts: 3,366

    Making trapper traps not affect him but deep wound injured survivors will not affect any other killer.

    changing general killer mechanics might be problematic, but not changes to specific killer abilities, unless those changes may make the killer the new top 1 killer.

  • Rickprado
    Rickprado Member Posts: 1,000

    Currently i believe every killer should be playable without mandatory addons. Dracula is a good example: he don't need any of his addons to fill some basekit weakness. Mostly of his addons are made to power up one form or playstyle (faster Wolf Pounce recharge, better Bat Teleport, better hellfire). On the other way, I've been playing Knight and it always feels that there aren't enough addon slots for the Knight (less today than at release, but still). Hag is another example: she should have 4 addon slots to at least stand a chance nowdays, since her power became very weak with time.

  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 17,902

    It would not. But I dont really see any ideas outside from "Buff Killer X". Because in the end, it is important that you keep the identity of the Killer. E.g. you can make Trapper into another Dashslop-Killer, but this would not really be the Killer people like to play.

    I also dont think that your idea is that great for Trapper, since it would probably only buff his most unfun playstyle and does not do much else for him. Changes I would make for Trapper:

    • Let him carry more traps, but not all of them. One more would be fine. (Hens had the idea that there are not 8 Traps on the map but 4 and he gets 2 when he picks up one of those, which would also be an option)
    • Increase the Setting Speed
    • Make it harder for Survivors to escape on the first tries. Currently it is 16,67% per attempt with a maximum number of 6 attempts. I think having a guaranteed escape after 6 attempts is fine, because this would mean that the Killer was so far away and did not really care for the Traps in that specific area. But I would say that the first three attempts should be very unlikely to escape close to impossible. Then the 4th should be more balanced, the 5th should be a high possibility of escaping and the 6th guaranteed. This would remove frustrating situations where the Survivor escapes on the first try, but makes it reasonable to escape from the 4th try onwards.
    • Changes his traps in a way that they are always of similar color like the floor of the map. So you have grey traps for The Game, yellowish for Eyrie of Crows etc.

    I think those things would make him more interesting and would buff him. But in the end, if you want to keep his identity, he will never be a strong Killer.

    Then I also think it is fine that we have different qualities of Killers, because some are just more simple to play. And IMO the simple to play Killers should never be the strongest Killers. You mention Wraith and I would agree with the Tierlist you posted that he is low B. But I think this is completely fine and reasonable, because he is a very easy Killer to play while still being effective. The problem is more that there are Killers in high A-Tier (*cough*Ghoul*cough*) which are at best Wraith-Level when it comes to how easy they are to play, but far stronger. And this also hurts the pickrate of easy to play, but lower Tier Killers, because if people want to win, they will just play Ghoul and not Wraith.

    And last but not least - it would also not hurt to nerf the strongest Killers. Since her implementation Nurse is on top of every Tier List. And it would be nice if there would at least be some discussion if she is the best Killer in the game, because currently there is none and everyone who creates a Tierlist puts her on the top spot. So the best Killers can also get some Nerfs, especially because those are also holding back the weaker Killers. It is way harder to implement general Killer Buffs, because they benefit the strong Killers as well as the weak Killers. And something which would help C- and D-Tier Killers will be too much for S- and A-Tier Killers. And something which would not make S- or A-Tier Killers really stronger would probably not help the lower Killers either.

    Both sides of the spectrum need to be tackled. Otherwise we are at the point where the balance moves at a snails pace, because the Devs constantly need to juggle between new content and old content. And they will always prefer new content, since it generates them money (and old content mainly if it helps them get money as well… I am of the strong opinion that Myers was only buffed because they lost the license to make a bunch of money with him before it is removed from DBD).

    (It would also help if the Devs would reduce the number of Chapters to 3 Chapters/year. This would allow them some time to actually balance things. Because they are showing that 4 Chapters/year plus several Paragraphs is just not possible for them)

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 3,407

    It depends on the killer and the buff.

    Take Wraith. He's a monster against new survivors. Buff him and the new survivor experience will be even worse.

    It's also a question of what addons are meant to accomplish. Are they meant to make up for killer weaknesses (i.e. balance being based around a killer running addons), should they be minor boosts, or game defining impacts? That's not breaking the game balance wise, but it depends on what concept people want (and I think BHVR leans more towards addons being meant to be required boosts).

    It would depend on the specifics and the goal.

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  • ONSAN
    ONSAN Member Posts: 204
    edited January 31

    Yes it will break. Whether it's low tier or high tier is irrelevant to others. If you are unable to operate it properly and do not get good results, your rating may go down. For many people, what matters are themselves. What you can do is change the ability values ​​​​​​​​(increase or decrease them). The rework isn't very good either. If a Trapper could warp, it wouldn't be a Trapper anymore. I feel there is potential in changing add-ons. Because with add-ons you have the right to choose. And most importantly, what impact will it have on new players? If there are no new players, the game is over. The game is over for everyone who comes to this forum, everyone who actually plays the game, and everyone involved in the game.

    Unfortunately, far fewer people are playing this game than we would think.

    Post edited by ONSAN on
  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,735

    Well it would and it wouldn't

    Would: The D,C,B tier Killers have an advantage against Solo Q Survivors

    Wouldn't: The S tier Killers have something that the others don't have

    Like this is just one persons opinion on how they see each Killer in matches they have

  • PetTheDoggo
    PetTheDoggo Member Posts: 2,276

    It becomes an issue when killer's power level becomes higher than minimum skill required to play them…

  • Wyndsor
    Wyndsor Member Posts: 30

    No killers should receive massive buffs before solo queue.

  • ShanoaLegendaryPlz
    ShanoaLegendaryPlz Member Posts: 1,659

    The clowns rework might be a good example of what would happen. Currently all the killers can still defeat solo que players just the latest ones can do it much more aggressively.

    Give more power to killers that are alredy capable of winning just struggle more to do so - might give you some of them becoming much worse to face than they used to be, for the rest of the game's lifespan.

    The other thing is who would determine which killers actually fall under b c and d tiers to allow them such massive buffs? I doubt bhvr themselves have their own tier list to go off of.

    And another example could also be huntress getting 7 hatchets, shes got so much more ammo to dodge in a chase now that if the killer player is skilled enough you arent going to dodge all 7 lol she wont have to reload in a chase most of the time.

  • ONSAN
    ONSAN Member Posts: 204

    It should be fine. Until now, the MMR system has pitted bad players against bad players, and good players against good players. We should have accurate match results. We can make adjustments based on that. If we don't have accurate data, we'll have to start over. See you in four years.

  • ShanoaLegendaryPlz
    ShanoaLegendaryPlz Member Posts: 1,659

    Im not sure what the mmr has to do with my comment? or what you mean by 4 years

  • ONSAN
    ONSAN Member Posts: 204

    your doubts

    It has been four years since the MMR system was introduced.

  • ShanoaLegendaryPlz
    ShanoaLegendaryPlz Member Posts: 1,659

    I didnt even say anything about mmr or doubted anything. Im genuinely confused lol

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 3,066

    Buff them how? That's really the only question that matters here.

    Because, the real answer is unless you give them blink or dash, trapper can never compare to nurse. You could make trapper base movement speed 150% and we would still have the "but nurse can blink between floors and trapper has to use the stairs". That's how you get "dashslop".

    And they tried something like that with clown having effectively permanent haste and it was broken.

    Not to say that you can't individually improve killers, or add qol, because you can and they have. But there's a big difference between "trap setting speed improved" and "gens are blocked for 5 minutes at the start of the match" or something.

  • BongoBoys
    BongoBoys Member Posts: 854

    No I don't think it would but I don't think we need to buff the B tiers ATM and focus more on the C and D tier killers

  • Philscooper
    Philscooper Member Posts: 677

    no but without any compensation for soloq,
    i would probably have no point in ever suggesting my friends to ever touch dbd with the huge ass guide book they need to learn.

    (even phasmophobia and dnd has less stuff to learn than this)

    the casual auidence has yet really a break since MFT and buckle meta.

  • tjt85
    tjt85 Member Posts: 1,764
    edited February 1

    I don't know why there is this obsession with buffing "low tier" Killers to be more viable against the strongest Survivor teams. I think tier lists are way overvalued and hardly reflect the reality for most. An average player can expect to win more often than not with pretty much any Killer if they put the time into learning their strengths and weaknesses.

    It can be done, but it has to be done carefully and in a way that doesn't make them more insufferable to face in low MMR. Having seen what BHVR have done to the likes of Clown and Myers, I don't trust them to make careful or considered buffs to low tier Killers anymore. Their Legion buffs were successful though, so I'll give them credit for that. For example, you can give Legion extended duration to their Frenzy because it won't really affect low MMR survivors. Since these Survivors tend to group up, they make chaining hits incredibly easy even for the previous base-kit Legion without any add-ons. So it's safe to buff this aspect of their power.

    I don't know what could be done for, say, Ghost Face that would make him a better pick than Billy for the more competitively minded Killer players (I compare these two because they both have an instadown as the main focus of their power).

    Ghost Face:

    • Has an instadown power.
    • Can be broken out of his power by Survivors, sometimes unfairly so.
    • Base speed / Low mobility.
    • Relatively strong on indoor maps, but then there are very few indoor maps so that hardly matters.
    • Just a basic attack Killer at the end of the day.

    Hillbilly:

    • Has an Instadown power.
    • Always has his power (no more overheat). Power arguably gets better with use.
    • Can be anywhere on most maps in seconds.
    • Can destroy pallets with his power.
    • Weak on indoor maps, but then there are few indoor maps so that hardly matters.

    The relatively weaker Killers are unlikely to be buffed to the point that will make the "trust me bro, I'm in top MMR" ultra competitive gamers suddenly drop their meta Killer of choice. That just isn't going to happen. Besides, plenty of weak Killers are still very popular regardless of their relative strength. Just because you don't see them in your trials doesn't mean they're not being played. I main two of them myself (Trapper and Legion) but I understand their limitations. Trapper is the definition of feast or famine. That's just the way it goes with him and no amount of buffs will change that.

  • SoGo
    SoGo Member Posts: 4,488

    It probably wouldn't break the game per se, but there are limits on how and in what capacity certain killers can be buffed. The best example of this is Clown. Due to his Antidote buffs, he became unbearable for a while.

    Same results can be expected if we just go ham and buff every aspect of some killers.

    Not saying Trapper should stay D Tier, but we should put some thought into the buffs.

  • ImWinston
    ImWinston Member Posts: 839
    • I remind you that the entire game is balanced around "weak" killers. Every time they tried to buff a survivor's perk or generally introduce a gameplay mechanic that favors survivors, the first complaint was "but weak killers can't compete with this!". Some examples? The DS timer, or even simply the size of the maps, but also the completely eliminated anti-tunnel/slug mechanic... they are all designed not to disadvantage "weak" killers. So giving a generic buff to all killers would also mean introducing new mechanics, perks, and maps to counter this general increase in power.
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  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 3,407

    I'll give it a shot on what they might have meant.

    If the MMR system does what it is supposed to, the whole issue is moot. If you play a C tier killer eventually you should get to a place where your KR is 60%. If you play an A tier killer, eventually you should get to a place where your KR is 60%. The killers would be in different spots of the MMR, but those numbers are secret so the player wouldn't know. Unless a player is on the edges of MMR, everyone should end up feeling like they ended in the same spot

    That's conceptually what should happen, though I don't think anyone feels like that is what happens.

  • Thusly_Boned
    Thusly_Boned Member Posts: 3,449

    If done thoughtfully (lol), buffing the low tier killers can only be a good thing for the overall health of the game. I would also say that about nerfing the S-tier.

    I don't think all killers to be equal (that would be impossible due to the poor design of many of them), but narrowing the power band to the point where winning or losing aren't extreme likelihoods based solely on the killer you choose or are facing would definitely benefit the game as a whole.

    The lack of parity among killers is part of what makes "high level" play such a repetitive bore.

    But the number of changes, tweaks, and adjustments (just just to killers but to survs) that would have to be tactfully executed to make it all work is likely completely beyond BHVR, so I feel like the whole discussion is kinda academic

    Yeah, in theory it should work that way, but anyone who has played this game for any length of time knows that MMR/SBMM doesn't do what it purports to do at all. It's one of the reasons "winning" in DBD means so little.

    At least half the games I play are joke mismatches to some degree.

  • HaliAndEx
    HaliAndEx Member Posts: 91
  • Star99er
    Star99er Member Posts: 1,545
    edited February 1

    They've since stated that they intend to rework Skull Merchant.

    Trapper, Pig, and Dredge could use some love soon imo. I still strongly believe Trapper's Iridescent Stone should be base kit with a 40-45 second cooldown which would help with how much time he has to commit to resetting his trap.

    Might be a controversial take but as a P100 Hag main I don't think she's as bad as some players think. Maybe a micro buff to increase the time it takes survivors to disarm her traps by like .3 seconds or reduce the time it takes for her to set hers by like 10% but I honestly enjoy where she is right now.

  • Vampwire
    Vampwire Member Posts: 740

    I would love to see weaker killers get buffed, but it really depends. Honestly there will just be bad killers no matter what. The ones that were playable in like 2018-2020 aren't viable anymore because of powercreep. Some are just designed to be bad. I also think buffing every killer to be around A tier would just not be fun. If you focus more on power than fun, the game is just miserable for everyone. I think Myers is a perfect example of this. He's just Chucky and Oni mashed together. You pretty much just force him to break the pallet, run to the next, then repeat until you either die (most likely) or he loses power.

    You can overbuff killers to be good, just at the cost of their identity and anything that made them interesting. Most of it can be relatively fixed by just making some add-ons basekit. Like dropleg knife sheath or iri stone. Because with Ghostface the issue is you mark them, then your only real advantage is occasionally hiding your red stain. Not awful, but not enough. Or trapper just literally impossible to use your power so long as someone disarms the traps. Making the traps have like a 60 second timer to reset themselves after disarmed is great. Enough downtime to make it a time wasting ability, yet also encourage trapper to still reset his traps.

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 3,066

    Sure, but the devil's in the details is my point.

    They already did spend time over the past few years on this. Not all, but there was about 2 years where just about every mid chapter touched on 2-4 killer kits, mostly the lower tier killers.

    Now, a lot of that was qol, and some wasn't, but they made a lot of add-ons fully or partially base kit in the process. Those are the kind of things that "make killers more solid for the game".

    But apparently it's never enough, at least not for some people. That's the reason for my question.

    Because making sweeping changes that affect every killer, like weakening pallets, making maps smaller, or increasing hook density, are also things they've done, but does nothing to "change the rankings" so to speak.

    Generally, I'm looking for an example of a solution that would both be impactful but not completely game breaking, or break the identity of the killer (ie "trapper blink").

    Most threads like this just leave it as "buff them", which many killers have individually, or collectively, depending on the patch. If those don't count, then what would?