How to stop kaneki getting a free hit?

Yeah because after you hit them with leap and injure them now what? How will you play against them?

You can use his leaps to close distance and cut them off but this works easily if they run into open area where only safe thing to reach is what you cutt from them and than chase them down before they can reach other safety resource (quite missplay from survivor in this case, threat him like blight in this matter a weaker one so no running into nothing where he can easily catch up).

He can than use his vault that is only good when he is enraged (injured survivor with leap or hit him over the object but the distance was over 2,5 meters so hit couldnt connect and no injury was made still he gets enraged for shorter time), this ability is strong but very dependent on type of loop like if its window and pallet close togeather on one loop than his vault is weak and even on loops like shach he cannot always get that down with use of his vault.

What can do ghoul than? Cutting survivor with leaps, he can do it on loops but its also super loop dependent like shack is doable and some two rounded rock loop with pallet arent or are super hard to pull and in oder to do this ghoul needs to aim quicly and be very accurate due to his autoaim hitbox if he aims close to survivor that is deepwounded he will pull to him and suffer long cooldown or injure him into deep would which wont help you get faster down on injured survivor, he is with this like blight rush+ wraith bodyblock but its hard and good survivor can evade this by turning back if he reads the ghoul.

So thats all ghoul can do I dont say its weak but his downs come in majority of cases with chasing survivor down and hitting them with m1 attack and his leaps can help him to achieve that but its not guarantee.

Personaly I think his vault needs to be slower a little and he will be fine just legion with blights mobility and weskers vault. The thing with ghoul is his power is miracle of DBD coding and devs cant change him much because it wouldnt work and whole rework isnt something they want to do on him so its hard but still you cant denny he wasnt looked at compare to blight who had hug tech for 2 years and had most op addons after purple tombstone in the entire game og compound 33, alchemy ring, does it ring a bell or you missed this part of the time when it was in the game?

Wraith is pretty much in same gategory. He gets benefit of downing with M1, but his chase is not really M1 killer gameplay.

It is unless you had like few addons that change that and make his cloak useable in chase without them its just mobility with stealth but you have to uncloak for 3 seconds.

Lets do the match survivor runs 4 m/s x3 is 12 m/s in that time wraith uncloaking on survivors level gets 1,6 m/s x3 is 4,8 m/s so 12 vs 4,8 and after uncloak wraith gets 6m/s for 1 seconds in which survivor makes another 4 m/s so survivor distance 16 m/s in 4 seconds and wraiths is 10,8 ms so if survivor runs wraith without addons for faster uncloak isnt doing anything with his power if survviors move and on top killer looses more distance when survviors hug objects so this makes the difference bigger.

Wraith without meat addons is m1 killer mostly because his cloak does nothing in chase maybe helps catching up but without addons it isnt that great either due to his distance loss when uncloaking.

what people mean is that the killer can down with m1 hits

No, they don't. Especially in connection with Kaneki. That's said on purpose downplaying his power level, because most M1 killers are considered to be on weaker side, but that's in most cases because of lack of mobility. Ghoul doesn't have that.

So you mean only m1 killers are the weakest m1 based killers? Thats your explenation but not everyone can see it the same, ghoul in downing survivor is mostly m1 killer he cant down with onother way unless you run into his face when he vaults which is same hit as wesker has.

Ghoul, Spirit, Wraith etc. their chases are not even close to what you would have as standard M1 killer. They can deny things that are available against normal killers, so their chase is not standard.

Trapper can end chases too quickly with trap, does it not make him m1 killer? No he is but his power work differently same with wraith and spirit, ghoul your explenation of m1 killer is m1 based killer who is currently underpowered but Im talking based m1 killers which ghoul is same as spirit,clown,wraith,ghostface,singularity,slinger, pig (dash that isnt m1 but she is trash so she is considered m1 thsat whyt you mean as m1 here I guess, technicaly she isnt m1 because she can down in chase with dash power that sspecial attack but if we consider its trahs dash I would say she is m1 in your category and even in my by being m1 based killer because using her dash for downs isnt that real as it sounds and thats why majority of pig players just uncrouch and go normaly for hit or potencionaly grab).

It all depends how you want to judge what is m1 killer but its wide question.

If M1 would be meant as "killer can down with M1 hits", then there is absolutely no reason to even bring it up in argument, because that's 100% positive in terms of perks you can use.

Perks? Some can give your m1 oneshot ability or even ghostface has instadown (make your choice basekit for each survivor basicaly said). Do you considere ghostface m1?

From technical reasons its still m1 hit with just double damage (two health states instead of two) so no special attack the comparison can be made in mayers comparing his old tier 3 with his attacks having exposed and now in evil incarnate mode he has slaughtering strike which downs but is special attack.

Exposed: Survivors suffering from Exposed are extremely vulnerable to a Killer's Basic Attack, putting them into the Dying State with a single hit.

Basic attack is m1 hit from technical perspective.

You realize Nurse for most of her time was basically M1 killer, because that's how her attack was treated. So it was fine, she was just M1 killer…
She was never called to be just M1 killer, because she was not even close to be one. Neither is Kaneki…

She was technicaly but she works compleatly differently and she doesnt loop by respecting pallets and windows and doesnt respect walls and objects.

What you mean as m1 is

, an "M1 killer" (Mouse 1) is a character who relies primarily on their basic melee attack to injure and down survivors, rather than using their special ability (power) to deal damage. These killers often lack built-in tools to easily break loops or damage survivors at a distance.

Some killers are considered m1 but they have another abilities like wraith, clown. They have tools to help them in chase (wraith with addons) but their main part of dealing damage and getting downs is m1.

What legion is he m1???

He works 50/50 he makes everyone injured with his special attack and other half is m1 into downs but wait ghoul has the same thing only difference is that he has basekit antiloop in vault and mobility (legion has iri addon button that gives him some antiloop, best addon) so now we entered real deal what is m1.

I personaly dont see ghoul as pure m1 but he is m1 based killer especialy in getting downs which is something you cant denny, legion makes this dilema but what makes him more of a m1 is his lack of mobility and antiloop in my oppinion.

If your m1 killer is weaker m1 based killers like ghostface,trapper,pig,legion that I get you and i agree that ghoul isnt that but from in game things and gameplay wise of getting downs he is m1 partly more than blight,dracula,twins,billy,nurse, krasue, pyramidhead, mayers which yo ucant denny because all these killers can down with another attack in chase effectively compare to ghoul whose vault (if its not bugged but wesker had this bug too, they are the same just with different numbers in speed and walk speed after vault) is just there as some punish survivor tool (still can be palyed around) and he cant down with another attack than m1.

Exactly what I am saying about Kaneki… Not sure what you complain about

He ignores god pallets, windows and distance doesn't matter for him.

Nurse ignores all objects (walls,pallets,windows,walls,rcoks,threes) 24/7 while kaneki ignores pallets partly and there are restrictions on that so this argument isnt much good, same as wesker or krasue ignore vault locations or chucky are they nurse like? No.

Distance is different thing but he cant down instantly from it like blight so you have to count that and just dont run into open like you do agains clown, every killer has different power and not all strats work on every killer the same like you dont do this to blight,dracula,billy because it doesnt end well sometimes and you know you can do it to legion,trapper,pyramidhead,mayers because they lack the mobility to catch up.

So on one hand you have Legion who is closest to killer without power as soon you are injured and on other hand killer who can use his power to close distance quickly, get free hits on larger loops, and better ones even use it to bodyblock you mid loop.

Yeah just better legion, nothing more just legion with easier hit with distance, weskers vault (better) and blights mobility, core of getting downs is m1 hit aka basic attack so just boosted legion.

Exatly, that's why it's misleading to say Ghoul is just M1 killer after you are injured, because he still has antiloop and mobility he can use…

Many killers have it like legion with addon, clown even trapepers traps are antiloop, all that depends it how good it is which ghols are good for now (mostly buged but what isnt in DBD right?) but he downs with m1 aka bassic attack.

If you dislike it that much find me source where is stated that ghoul can down casualy with something different than bassic attack?

Vault hit yeah it only works if survivor runs into you or its bugged ,next?

The bleeding out from deep wound but the thing is this can happen only if survivor is new or gives up and lets this effect down him but I dont see any of these two types of getting down being done so regularly as m1 hit that causes the down in 99% of times doesnt it?

I dont know how often you look at something in DBD but his vault has like 1m hitbox and survivor must be duper close to the killer after the vault, his vault has even shorter hit range than weskers, imagin.

Old nurse had m1 hits because she couldnt be able to use many perks with effects like exposed or perks like sloppy but this changed after wesker was released due to build awakened awaerness+lethal persuer+star struck which gave nurse wallhacks quite often with oneshot.

Kaneki technicaly can get downs with different type of damage than bassoc attack but the question is, how reliable are these downs that aren from m1 hit?

Vault down is when survivor runs into him after he vaulted just like on wesker and getting downed from deepwound you need to ignore it and let the meter dpleate which only happens in two types of situations, first is new players that have no clue even now its more clear on their screen than before and second are survivors that just want to give up to abandon or die fast, so his downs in majority are m1 downs.

Well, but he can do it… It's also not that rare, especially when he uses it on god window/pallet. Survivor is just dead there, so it's better to try hit the timing and vault back.

Yeah you are right with "he can do it" but I must object its not that consistent if its not buged like it was few weeks before now on him and wesker or when this vault hit on him was like 2 meters long (first og kaneki, the s-tier one and his strongest version when relesed) and kidnap tech was a thing so kidnap tech + long hitbox vault hit was a thing but now you must more run into him just like its on wesker (kanekis vault hitbox is/ should be by devs claim shorter than weskers).

Another thing is it helps get that m1 hit and as you said god loops are good for this because they are often long wall path blocked with pallet or strong window (nowdays majority is pallet) and this is where his vault shines but on loops where its shorter path to pallet or back into window or there are two of them (pallet or window or pallet pallet/ window into window) this vault isnt that good without kidnap tech because before he can catch up survivor can make safe space between with that resource (pallet/window).

By your definition (down is M1) Nurse was M1 killer. You are just not happy with it, because she was breaking standard chase too much for you. Well, Kaneki is breaking it too much for me. Same concept, different limits.
Kaneki does exactly same thing, just to different level.

Either none of them are "just M1 killers", or both are(were).

Nurse was as I said m1 based killer where her only way to down you was m1 hit aka bassic attack, her chae that is 100% different than any other killer in the game thats different thing she cant realy "chase" survivor but just teleports near him to land that hit.

And how does kaneki do same as nurse??

You now kinda getting it weird here first he must down with m1 hit but unlike nurse he must respect walls,objects and loops and some like god pallets/windows he can kinda ignore with his vault which only thing same as nurse is he needs m1 hit to get down.

And even with that your logic: Can Spirit down with her power? Because if yes, then so does Kaneki. Not really that hard to end next to survivor with his low fatigue for down. That's a hit he wouldn't get if he just walked, so I would say he got that down because of his power, no?

Can spirit do it? No her power has no hit its just mobility and she exits it when she wants or runs out of it charges and must m1.

Can blight down with his power, yes its special attack. Now the main part, can kaneki down with his power? kinda but vault is special attack so it goes off from this argument and after he ends his leap/ cancels it he must hit with m1.

Getting down because his power helped isnt 100% same as getting down with his power (meaning he slaped the survivor with his leap like wesker or blight) but ended near and continued with base speed and m1 hit.

Either none of them are "just M1 killers", or both are(were).

All this happened because you didnt specify wgat you mean by "m1 killer". This term is very open and you meant by it I guess killer that damages only with m1 attacks (which funnily spirit kinda is).

I dont see him as m1 like pig,ghostface but I see him partly as m1 too because 99,99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of times your downs come from m1 hits aka bassic attack which is 50% of damage he does and from high tier killers he is mostly more m1 use of killer and can be looped as m1 (to few exeptions like god pallets where his vault helps but now all loops can be solved with his vault especialy now when kidnap tech isnt a thing anymore). I said he is m1 based killer by meaning m1 when using this term on him without more expleaning (due to time and expecting some inteligence in understandment).

So lets say We both see him as Not m1 killer but I stay that he is more based m1 killer than many top tiers. The thing is m1 killer falls as term when we consider some addons on killers like wraith,legion that can make/shape their power into antiloop simular to kanekis,spirits but weaker. Further more I would end it here so we both have more time for more productive things and dont loose time here on not that impoertant things. We agreed on something and have different oppinions on other parts of this topic.

PS: if that one downvote on most of my post about this discussion between us is yours I gladly accept it to my collection.