This game is flawed
Killers have no choice but to tunnel 1 survivor out of the game. It's no different from IDV. If you think of spreading hooks then you're just begging for a loss.
3 survivors alive will always be better than 4 survivors alive. The devs will never incentivize for 12 hooking. It doesn't matter how many anti tunnel or anti camp features or perks they are adding to the game it's simply not worth it to keep 4 survivors alive.
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So many downvotes even though it's true? This forums is weird asf.
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exactly, its like hitting all 4 survivors once. Sure you got 4 hits in but your still in the same position of having 3 survivors working gens when chasing 1. Clearly its better land 2 hits on 1 survivor, hook them and remove them from the equation. Same applies to tunneling, get 1 eliminated asap to remove them from the equation will generally be better than spreading hooks.
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You get used to the downvotes lol, its often a case of "your right but i dont like that your right so im going to downvote you".
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Yup. There is not enough game time. Idc if they give me a 1000 downvotes. The truth is the truth.
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And most people don’t even bother to formulate a response for why they disagree. They just lob their anonymous downvote bomb and run away. It’s a stupid feature of the forum. At minimum they should make it visible who is downvoting so you can see who is logging on simply to downvote people whose opinions they don’t like, sometimes with multiple alt accounts.
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Generally anything that is perceived as being "killer sided" tends to get downvoted here and on reddit. Simply due to the nature that there are statistically 4x as many survivor mains as there are killer mains. And people like to use downvotes when they don't like something someone says without actually engaging in a conversation with them because its easier.
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This game has been flawed from the start, devs just refuse to acknowledge the real problems and keep making it worse for everyone while slapping plasters on problems left right and centre. Angry about a specific bug? Oh, well here's a cool new perk and a Feng/Mikaela/Sable cosmetic to keep you playing (because they know you will).
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It's probably the "no choice" that's getting you the downvotes. You always have a choice. Plenty of people don't tunnel.
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Have you considered people read the OP's opinion and concluded they wouldn't be interested in an actual discussion so they didn't waste their time?
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That may be true, but then they just shouldn't engage at all. Downvoting then leaving is cowardly and doesn't really make your opinion valid in that case.
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So you shouldn't be allowed to down vote something without writing an explanation? In what world does that make sense? Should you be allowed to upvote without comment?
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seems a little bit pernickety to me. Do people have to word things like its legal document? "killers often feel they have no choice but to tunnel as when they do not tunnel they are frequently met with a loss followed by end game celebration of the opponent."
Yes there is a choice and not all killers lose when they dont tunnel, however to simply downvote based on the wording "no choice" instead of saying something like "if i want to win i dont have much choice but to tunnel because if i dont tunnel then i dont win"
That being said, we dont even know if this is the reason for the downvotes as the downvoters are suspiciously silent and rarely explain the reason behind the downvote. It would be nice if they explained themselves.
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The difference is when someone agrees with another person its usually self explanatory. "yes i agree with you" no further explanation is required, people dont ask "why do you agree with me?". But when someone disagrees, its natural to ask "why do you not agree?". This promotes a discussion where both can discuss their points, both can learn and be enlightened by that discussion. To simply downvote implying they dont agree without explaining why is….odd.
Person A "i dont like what you just said"
Person B "ok, why dont you like it, what about it dont you like?"
Person A "im not telling you and i dont have to"
Good discussion there, truly belongs in the general discussions part of the forums lol.
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you don't have to tunnel. survivors just encourage it by playing correctly by playing super safe with Finesse, and pre running and calling you out on comms or auras. they'll never give you the hits so you sometimes have to pretend to tunnel to force these checkspot campers to actually do something.
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I mean i think the concept of upvotes and downvotes are stupid in general. You ever watch The Orville?
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It's not just that the wording is inaccurate, it's the classic "I'm the real victim because I have to tunnel 😢😢😢" implication. Meanwhile, you're making four other people unhappy with your choice. And that's what it is, it's 100% a choice. It's offensive to do something that is known to be disliked and then act like your hands were tied.
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I don't know why everyone is so obsessed with what happens in other games. Games have their own isolated cultures and communities. We are talking about dbd here.
You can not tunnel and still win. I play both with friends and against randoms who don't do it. I don't do, and I still stay above the 60% goal.
Post edited by cogsturning on5 -
3 survivors alive will always be better than 4 survivors alive.
Yes, this is true.
Killers have no choice but to tunnel 1 survivor out of the game.
This is an opinion and not a stated fact. Nothing forces a killer to tunnel a survivor and there are many matches won by 4k without tunneling.
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Most people have formulated their reasons at least a dozen times, since this topic is an evergreen here and crops up two to three times a month. Everything's been said about it already. People who come barging in, stomping their foot down and claiming their conclusion are just fishing for validation, and if they can't get that, endless arguments that go nowhere.
Someone says tunnelling is needed, someone else says it's not, people do wonky math, there's a whole lot of 'If you hold [opinion] you're clearly low mmr', people bicker over killrates/winrates, 'that's not what average means', patch notes get dredged up, 'you're just a surv main', 'valid tactic', 'it's anti-FACEcamp', 'but whatabout second chance perks', etc. etc. etc.
Nothing that's said here ever makes a difference. Most we can do is click the little button that tells BHVR someone disagrees. Everything else they either already know, or if they haven't figured it out yet, they never will.
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But when the choice is make 4 people unhappy by tunneling or make yourself unhappy by getting tbagged and lose then is it really a choice? Maybe "no choice" isnt the right word, maybe "no brainer" is a better way to put it because its pretty much a no brainer….option A being to tunnel and happy while potentially making 4 others unhappy or option B being to not tunnel make 4 others happy and make yourself unhappy. I dont think many people are thinking "im going to play dbd to entertain others and provide enjoyment at the expense of my own" they are playing for their own entertainment and enjoyment and if they dont enjoy losing and the only way they can win is to tunnel then it can be seen that they dont have a choice if they want to enjoy the game, they do actually have to tunnel to get enjoyment out of it.
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For all the protestations of not caring what survivors think, there sure are a lot of constant complaint on this forum about… *checks* getting 2-3 downvotes.
And as others have said, it is a gameplay choice you are making. Same as not always playing Blight or Nurse. Or always using the strongest add-ons. Or always using an advantageous offering. Or only ever running the strongest perks. You have made a dozen choices before you even enter a game which all have the consequence of making a 4k, or even losing, more likely. But for some reason, you treat tunnelling as a sacred cow. You can not tunnel, and just like all the other choices you made, the consequence is that you will lose slightly more.
And no, it is not on you to act with the game health in mind. That's the responsibility of the developers. To institute guardrails and mechanics that encourage fun, respectful, and engaging gameplay, which they have not just abdicated, but have fostered and encouraged toxicity and poor sportsmanship. For both sides. Stop and think about how terrible and devoid of all agency the endgame is, whether survivors or killer wins. It is a codified humiliation ritual where the other side has no agency and there is no meaningful gameplay when played 'correctly.' Which is why it often isn't, which just invites more toxicity in turn.
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Yet the devs of the game of topic wanted this feature and added it to the forum, so apparently it does have a merrit, doesn't it? Or else, why add it.
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Back on topic @ OP yes, you can definitely make sure you have 3v1 or 2v1 asap, but you can do it by hooking person 1 then person 2, and then go back to person 1. That way you aren't tunneling the same person repeatedly the moment they're unhooked. Then it's all fair game imo, and the game is more fun for all involved.
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Not everyone is selfish.
Not everyone gains happiness solely from winning.
You do not have to tunnel to win.
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not everyone but a lot are….i would say majority based on how many killers tunnel and genuinely dont care if others have fun or not, the amount of survivors that tbag the killer at the gates knowing the killer wont have fun hitting them out or when killers get repeatedly hit in the face with pallet after pallet….not many killers are thinking "yay this is fun" but do people care? no, because they are playing for their own fun not the killers fun.
You might not have to tunnel to win but you are not everyone. some might have to tunnel to win. someone losing match after match without tunneling….you going to say "you dont have to tunnel to win"? Maybe they do, you cant say they dont if they end up losing when they dont tunnel but win when they do. Like me saying you dont have to loop, i dont, maybe you do?
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And like so many other things, i think the devs are wrong.
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We always hear about how impossible the game is for Killer while they continue to be soft-balled for years now. At this point it really is a problem with the mindset of Killer and not the role itself. The more effort that's put into pleasing that mindset, the more and more the game suffers.
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so ######### are survivors meant to do lol? let you kill them for free and not attempt to loop/escape you??
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I will never understand this tbagging excuse. I can't imagine a grown adult being mad enough about rapid squats being done by a cartoony dude in leopard speedo to change how they act. It's so goofy. This is a personal attitude problem and you're taking it out on random people who've done nothing to you. And who is mad about pallet stuns? If these are genuinely bothering people they probably shouldn't be playing at all.
The game is killer-sided. I suck and I still win against players who are better survivors than I am. If you're losing all your matches, like dozens of them in a row, then you probably grew your MMR too fast by tunneling and not learning proper pressure and map control while you were in the lower ranks. Lose and fall back down to be where you belong and learn the game properly.
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You mean you don't like having the same tired argument weekly?
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EVERYONE on these forums LOVES these forums the way it is. Why would we have these same topics over and over again?
Im still struggling with stealth though. Wish someone could play some games with me :(
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BHVR will listen… Any day now… Yup… Any day now… ☠️⏳️
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you dont have to understand it, all you need to know is that it bothers people….do people still still do it knowing it bothers others? yes. I dont understand how someone can be so bothered by stealth play but each to their own.
The killers that complained about the pallet increase often mentioned pallet stuns, M1 killers in particular say about pallet stuns. But like you said if these are things that bother people then maybe they shouldnt play at all….like if a killer complains about being looped….or survivors complain about being tunneled. All part of the game, dont like it? dont play as far as im concerned. Alternatively, find your own solution but complaining about what the core game is? nah. suck it up buttercup, tbag, tunnel, loop, camp, stun, gen rush….all part of the game.
We have already been over this "grown MMR by tunneling" nonsense. Killers like myself didnt tunnel at all. It was only after losing match after match i started to tunnel. Now how can tunneling inflate my MMR beyond what it should be if i didnt tunnel to begin with?
You telling a killer to intentionally refuse to use the tools and tactics available to them so they can learn to play "properly" is no different to saying survivors that rely on certain perks or SWF or whatever they need to rely on to win. "dont use sprint burst, take the loss and get your MMR down to a level that you can win without it and play properly. Maybe go perkless with no items for a while to learn to play the game properly. Fact is like it or not, tunneling remains a legitimate tactic and is not reportable, not griefing, not cheating, so if you tell killers they are not playing the game properly by tunneling then you have massively misunderstood what the game is and what playing properly is.
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Bottom line is killers piss and moan if they can't have a smooth sailing 4k. God forbid one or 2 survs get out from time to time. If you lose most games as a killer these days, then you are the problem. Stop asking for more hand-holding and nut up.
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It can promote a discussion sure. However it's pretty rare for that discussion to be at all productive.
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I have though it's been a while and haven't gotten around to finishing it.
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well thats subjective, However these are in the section of the forums called "general discussions". productive or not, discussions are what these are about. simply downvoting without contributing anything towards the discussion is not what this is about, its not general voting lol.
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I don't tunnel as killer and do just fine. I also once kept stats for a few hundred survivor games and tunnelling killers were in approx 12% of all those games. So plenty of other Killers play fine without doing it. If you tunnel then whatever, I don't actually care how you choose to play. But to say players have to tunnel is just false.
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True but the option exists. Plus given the fit the OP threw when they started getting down voted can you really blame people for not wanting to engage with that?
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true the option exists so people will do it which is why the many many downvotes i often get makes no difference to me. But im still under the opinion that downvotes offer nothing to a thread in a discussions forum. Not much i can do about other people, just have to say my bit and leave the downvoters to their own little bubble if they dont want to partake in the discussions.
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I dont understand how someone can be so bothered by stealth play but each to their own.
No one is talking about this. Try to stay on track.
We have already been over this "grown MMR by tunneling" nonsense.
I sometimes get killers with a couple hundred hours and they immediately go for the hard tunnel. Sometimes it works for them, mostly it doesn't, but they're clearly boosted by cheese if they're oppoenents have 10x+ the hours of them.
It was only after losing match after match i started to tunnel.
And how many matches was that? Because I can manage about 5 losses before the game gives me the pity present of Team Potato who I 4k at 5gens. The survivors I get are usually better players than me and I almost never have a long streak of losses.
But like you said if these are things that bother people then maybe they shouldnt play at all….like if a killer complains about being looped….or survivors complain about being tunneled.
The maps have been designed around looping. It's what you're supposed to do with tiles. You're meant ro try to outplay one another in a setting designed for it. The game wasn't designed around tunneling. It's just something that's gotten worse and worse over the years. There'd be no basekit BT if survivors were meant to be tunneled. There wouldn't have been multiple ptbs trying to address. It doesn't make sense to design a system that's basically an autoloss for a team at what could be the first 2 minutes of a match.
Maybe go perkless with no items for a while to learn to play the game properly
You really don't understand comparsions at all. This would be the equivalent of a killer also going perkless and add-on-less, which some do because the game is already killer-sided.
so if you tell killers they are not playing the game properly by tunneling then you have massively misunderstood what the game is and what playing properly is.
If tunneling is the one and only way you know how to win then you do not understand the overall game. You've developed zero gamesense, zero map awareness, zero perditiction ability, zero control. You are are acting like a brainless bot.
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If I keep smashing my head againt this brick wall it will be the wall that breaks, I know it.
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lol interesting that you disregard something when it goes against your argument. The stealth comment is directly relating to your not understanding how someone can find something unfun.
I have seen survivors with over 3k hours and they have performed far worse than survivors with 500 hours that have been able to loop the killer for a long time, have they raised their MMR to where it shouldnt be too? Maybe the killer is using a different account, they could have more hours than everyone but the hours shown would say only few hundred. You should know hours do not equate to skill so its very much possible for a killer with low hours to be just as good as a survivor with a lot of hours and vice versa.
At the time i went many many matches of getting at best 1 or 2k so pretty much every match i either lost or got a draw at best. 3k or higher was very rare for a few months. Then i started tunneling and things evened out, i win some i lose some which is how the game should be. It should not be intentionally lower MMR by under performing, taking loss after loss after loss to then maybe, eventually get balance back.
The game is clearly designed around tunneling or it would be made reportable like griefing is, it would be hard nerfed and stopped dead. The game is designed around many different aspects, looping, tunneling, proxy camping, slugging, perk use, map layout, spawn points.
You are once again making assumptions based on nothing….tunneling is situational so its about knowing when to drop chase, knowing when to tunnel, who to tunnel. Just so happens many situations (usually caused by survivors) is better to tunnel than not to tunnel. Claiming a tunneler has developed no game sense, no map awareness ect is utter nonsense. They could have learnt all that prior to tunneling but still struggle to gain kills without tunneling. It sounds like those people that lose and then "git gud"….i dont think the winner needs to, the loser should "git gud" because they lost.
Iv seen it all, survivors saying things like "you only won because of tunneling" or You only won because you had a good map" or "you only won because of your perks". Then killers say "you only won because you gen rushed" or "you only won because you pre run" or "you only won because you body blocked". These are all poor excuses people come out with to justify a loss while not taking responsibility for their own actions, decisions and skill. These are part of the game, part of the design. Until that design changes, thats how it is so telling someone they are not playing properly by playing a certain way (your way) is not correct at all. You really should stop with that argument because your made up rules have no say in what is playing properly and what isnt.
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I mean personally I've never given any mind to up or down votes. They don't actually matter. I can understand why people just leave an up or down vote without commenting though as it usually feels pointless to comment. Most of the community is in their bubble of whichever side they main and they won't really consider an opposing view.
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I 100% Agreed. most of my matches im made to tunnel, Slug and camp because of what survivors do. Sabo Squads make me slug, Gen Rushing makes me Tunnel and when they sworm the hook im forced to camp
"Edited: I fixed my wording I just realized it Auto corrected out Agreed. My phones been doing that alot lately. Sorry for thr confusion.
Post edited by Skeleton23 on-9 -
I can understand why, like i said, some people could just simply think "i dont like what you said, i have no valid logical argument against it so i will give a downvote". Makes sense to me, dont like it but cant dispute it? downvote it lol. Im tempted to see how many downvotes i can actually rack up with 1 post lol….push the limits just to see 🤣
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I don't think it's nearly as simple as don't like what is said but can't argue against it. I think alot of them don't see the reason to spend time arguing with someone if they don't believe that person will listen.
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Weird to mention sabo squads since that's not what almost everyone is complaining about with slugging. Might as well include people lurking with a flashlight in that case. Both of those are generally considered "reasonable reasons to leave someone on the ground for a short period" while you go chase the other person. Neither is a reason to leave someone intentionally slugged for 4 minutes to bleed out.
The other two, though, are self-fulfilling prophecies.
If you hard tunnel one person and leave the other 3 alone, they will do gens. Survivors respond to things the killer does or brings to the match, and do gens by default. But if I reword your complaint to "you know what, if you want to do gens I'm going to leave you alone and let you do gens" doesn't sound nearly as victimizing as you'd like.
Camping because of "swarming the hook" can also be self fulfilling. If you stand around the hook long enough you actually get both "gen rushing" and eventually someone will
have to try and unhook"swarm the hook".5 -
lol interesting that you disregard something when it goes against your argument.
I'm disregarding it because you love bringing up stuff that has nothing to do with the topic. "Don't like getting tunneled? Well, I don't like it when survivors wear red. Guess we all have to deal with these torally equal things that absolutely align though." You constantly compare anything that exists in the game to any other random thing in the game when they're not at all equivalent or even related.
Maybe the killer is using a different account, they could have more hours than everyone but the hours shown would say only few hundred
I am a cross progression player so I understand it perfectly well. I'm taking about obvious cases, like a killer who whiffs constantly, misses their M2s, can't mind game, doesn't know what gens to patrol, but still brainlessly tunnels because some YTer told them to. You're also assuming the bad 3k hour player is playing what they main. They could be playing killer with 200 hours while the other 2.8k is in survivor.
The game is clearly designed around tunneling or it would be made reportable like griefing is, it would be hard nerfed and stopped dead
Something existing and something being part of a design aren't the same thing. If anything, the game has adjusted to tunneling because it has to, because tunneling is skewing the numbers and likely keeping low tier killers in the dumps to maintain the 60%. If everyone stopped tunneling and BHVR saw the real numbers, instead of them being obscured by cheese, they could get to the real issues.
But no, I'm sure they put all that work into those ptbs just for funsies. Let's just pretend they didn't actively try to stop tunneling but chickened out in the end. That never happened, since it doesn't fit your by-design narrative.
You only won because you had a good map" or "you only won because of your perks"
It's true though. I win a good deal of my killer matches because of these things. The game gives one side or the other stuff for free, or it's luck, with what perks you chose versus you're opponenet, or it's putting on Lightborn because you saw three flashlights in the lobby. Much of this game is chance-based amongst average players.
These are all poor excuses people come out with to justify a loss while not taking responsibility for their own actions, decisions and skill.
Yeah, taking responsibility for your actions instead of blaming teammates and opponenets is certainly a popular take in the community, present company included.
You really should stop with that argument because your made up rules have no say in what is playing properly and what isnt.
I really do love how you keep saying this as if you and I are the only people in the forum and there isn't a steady stream of posters saying the exact same things, very often to you. There's been a million arguments about this same stuff for years but no, they're my rules.
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except the point was that you didnt understand why a killer is bothered by somthing you see no issue with….i think bringing up something a survivor as yourself would be bothered by something i am not. There is a similarity there, your lack of understanding doesnt change the fact that survivors know their actions bother other people yet they still do it. Like i said you dont need to understand it, you just need to know it effects others negatively….if you choose to not care about that then fair enough just say so.
The fact you admit the game has adjusted to tunneling clearly shows its part of the game design, have to or not its part of the design and they worked around it. They done the PTB to try and reduce the effectiveness instead of pushing survivors to actually learn how to loop, to teach them to stop unhooking too soon in the killers face. Once upon a time killers had no bloodlust and no entity blocker to prevent loops. introducing these anti loop measures means looping is not part of the design because they tried to nerf it? They are all part of the design.
As i have said many times, they are your rules. YOU made them up. Others may have come up with similar rules (and they have) but it doesnt change the fact that you as a player like all the other players that make up their own rules have in fact made them up. BHVR makes the rules, not you, not the players. Every time you make up a rule that is not backed by the devs it is your rule you have made up. "dont tunnel, play properly, leave me alone to do gens" "dont gen rush, do a few gens then wait for me to get a kill" These are self made rules. Like i said, you can play by whatever rules you want to invent but clearly others often wont play your way, thats why playing properly according you is a non argument when they are playing properly according to the rules BHVR sets out.
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People don't like hearing when their opinions are factually incorrect. The downvoters on this post probably just read the first sentence and were like "yeah, I'm gonna down vote this guy for essentially saying you can't win without tunneling. He's trying to promote unfun gameplay for survivors" like most killers aren't terrible and high mmr survivors don't dominate any non s tier killer
Though this could come down to most people on here genuinely not knowing how to play the game effectively or having a role bias, lots of reasons. Though what I do see here a lot is people thinking the game is killer sided because of the kill rate stats, which grinds my gears because that has almost nothing to do with most killers being too powerful (some are relatively balanced, and most are weak, a few are broken in their current states and aren't touched because they're og killers and they have a big fan base), it has to do with their kits being too complex for inexperienced survivors to understand, (aka bad or casual players) who are just bound to lose because there's no tutorials on how to actually counter these newer abilities, leading to these players coming onto here and spreading misinformation about their experience, as well as playing dozens of matches before finally understanding the counterplay to a killer power or to a perk or even an add on, that is if they don't just give up the second they see what they don't like and refuse to give learning a chance. There are a lot of these folks on here, which is why pretty much any post or comment arguing the reality of the game's balance often gets down vote ratioed
Its why most people who are actually informed and experienced don't come on here or just quit talking here entirely, because no one wants to hear the truth or any actually good feedback. There are almost no mechanically aware players on the forums, that's the truth
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