15s Endurance in the endgame is very stupid.
Comments
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The irony that Survivors have to get better while claiming that Killers are still the weaker role is really getting old.
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What?
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So you have actuall no argument besides "it is how it is".
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The game is literally designed such that, the longer the game goes on the killer is more threatening. As survivors finish gens, the killer has less gens to patrol, I.E. 3 genning. This is by design, at the start of the game the killer has to hunt and find the survivors, and they split up and work on different gens.
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So if the killer gets tronger through the game, why would the killer need some extras during EGC (thats supposed to be neutral)?
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This isn't an extra. This is removing an extra the survivors got because its antithetical to the design of the game. Survivors should not have an easy time saving in the endgame just because they get a ton of basekit mechanics that shouldn't be there.
There's a reason perks like DS and OTR all disable in endgame too.
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I wouldn't say that at all. I think a lot of Survivor players play the role well enough, but there are too many variables stacked against them. All by design, of course. The same isn't true of Killer. Naturally some powers are stronger than others, but even the weak links seem to do better than the average Survivor (KR/ER-wise). All that I think is happening now is that there's more pressure on gens than anything else and Survivors by and large are stepping to the plate. I don't think that means they're escaping any more than usual, but they are stressing Killers out.
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Yeah and with not much content and changes in the past while I could also amount it to most people I know that play killer dont play it as much anymore and mmr doesnt degrade that fast or at all. So they are also mixing rust from just coming back or the occasional game to their probably prime because thats normally where your mmr sticks.
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- 2 healthy survivors approach the hook.
- You tag the first one as they attempt to unhook and they run toward the gate (safe).
- The second survivor gets the unhook while you're locked inside the wipe animation, but you tag them shortly after as they run toward the gate covered by the unhooked survivor who will be invincible for the entire time it takes for all three to cross the finish line (safe).
This sequence is only hard to accomplish if you're drunk. It was the same (virtually riskless) free escape scenario when it was 10 seconds of god mode off hook, the extra 5 seconds just compounded the pre-existing level of nonsense at this stage of the match.
The idea of just not letting the game get to the end only really applies to the higher tier killers because it's average for the lower tier killers to suffer a 2 - 3 gen loss for the time it takes to find, chase and down a single person. As such, it seems pretty lopsided and entitled to believe that you simply just deserve a mechanically assisted, stress-free endgame rescue regardless of which killer you're facing.
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such a short comment but its filled with so much dislike for killer in just one sentence.
the point is in a video game, you try to win. at the best, people try to at least tie. anything to avoid a loss. in endgame, this is a situation where if you get 1 person out by that point normally in the past you could at least get one more out. and get a tie. this was never a for sure thing to work, since organized survivors can make use of old endurance and body blocking to get someone out.
the reason its worse now, is because 15 seconds of haste + enduring makes it way way safer for the survivor to have basically no backup and get a lot closer than they would before the change. and with good survivors, it can make a endgame kill very very hard or next to impossible. mind you, BHVR themselves stated endgame is the only time they intend the killer to secure kills. yet survivors with consistent control can work around this.
now, the thing is about this is in a lot of situations you can just go for the unhooker. the problem with current base kit BT is that it enables the UNHOOKER to body block for the person that unhooked them relatively easily. so not only does that person get the ability to take a hit and get defended by their team, if the unhooker is attacked they can ALSO get a immediate body block from the person they unhooked.
the point is, for a lot of killer the way BT is in endgame right now is it is a lose lose situation. it more or less means trying to camp in endgame to secure a kill, which is intended, isnt very viable to do. and even if you try to go for someone else which WAS what was originally encouraged to do, thats also no longer consistent. hell, most perks for endgame that prevent tunneling turn off for a reason. its intended for you to tunnel in endgame to get someone out at the end. but not only is tunneling not nearly as effective, doing the opposite is ALSO not effective. thats bad design.2 -
I always find it interesting how these discussions go and everything that gets glossed over:
If the survivors make it to endgame
AND the survivor being hooked isn't death hook
AND the survivors are all alive and healed up
AND the killers doesn't have an end game build
AND the survivors get the gate 99ed/open
AND the hooked survivor is close enough to the gate to get out
AND the killer isn't one who can tear through a group of survivors and/or catch up to the unhooked survivor or the first one who got injured going for the unhook
then yes, the odds are in the survivors favor that they are going to get the 4 out. But how silly would it be if they had all of those advantages and still the 4e was unlikely?
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This is what I was saying when DS was on the chopping block. The community had already decided it was in a good place, but it activating during endgame was considered "free". Apparently holding on to the perk all game, getting unhooked close enough to gate without opening it, and running out was so free but standing in front of the hook doing nothing wasn't free at all. 😵 And as we know, that became the basis for removing Survivor presence from the endgame—the point where they are the weakest and need the most help. I thought we were past that point, but apparently not.
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Monkeys paw endgame endurance is back to 10 seconds but early to mid game endurance is now 20 seconds do you accept?
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That's not how monkey paws work
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It is more a dislike for a certain type of Killer players. Exactly those who think that just because endgame happens, the Killer now deserves a Kill, because "there is nothing else left to do" or they did not get a Kill earlier.
The reality is that the Killer player had a whole game to kill the Survivors and did not manage to do so. And usually this also means that the Killer player did not really play good the whole game. And yet they demand a Kill in Endgame.
And I know that someone will now say "Yeah, but the Killer was playing nice, this is why they dont have a Kill!!!111"… Yeah, no. The overlap between people who tunnel (and should get Kills early) and the amount of people who complain about "free escapes" in Endgame is very big. We are most likely looking at a Killer player who tried to tunnel, failed and then still wants his "earned" Kill in Endgame.
But I admit - yep, I dont like those kind of Killer players. But I dont mind that Endgame is killer-sided (because it is) and I am totally fine with being left behind on the Hook in Endgame or leaving others behind, if it is not reasonable to try to save them.
Post edited by Aven_Fallen on-2 -
I would be interested to see a late game last stand sort of the thing so theres a reward for going for 12 hooks for instance. Like in Endgame for every survivor 2nd stage+they arent dead currently something happens. Not sure how theyd do it but sounds interesting. Perks like no way out kinda do this but they only count the first hook per person so you can just tunnel with NWO and make it much easier for yourself.
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Rewards for hooking multiple people? Killer players were against that, because it would also have been a punishment for tunneling.
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Yeah I mostly liked the first attempt (ignoring some of the obvious flaws like the 6 hook punishment or the tunnel because they could be forced or happen on literal accident that was shown through actual gameplay) lol. The perk reworks and the base mechanics were mostly perfect too me. But bhvr didnt like it either calling it "cookie cutter gameplay"
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at any point in the game, the killer is trying to kill you. even BHVR themselves stated endgame is the point where they want the killer to be getting survivors out of the game. in a ideal equal game, they want a killer to get two people out near the end and two survivors escape. that is their "balance" goal. the point of the game is it SHOULD steadily work up to this point of the climax of the game.
so when you state "oh well killers just want free kills… smh smh…." thats not the point. the point is the crack-down part of the game where its intended for killers… to KILL… is the most safe point it has ever been for survivor to secure a escape ever due to base kit BT being extended. i explain this and you willingly ignored it, but let me repeat it for you. before and after this change, going for the unhooker was optimal and a decent idea and might get you them on hook. going for the person who got unhooked, although not consistent, could work if the team wasnt optimized enough. and since they didnt have as much time as they do now, its realistic to catch them. with how this is now, its considerably easier to abuse basekit BT and body block with it than it has ever been before. this is fine in most of the game because you can just ignore them and not hard tunnel. but in endgame (the time where youre told by BHVR you should tunnel) this is a problem.
it is not that the killer "deserves" a kill. its that its unfair on the killer to get punished in a situation where theyre doing what theyre supposed to be doing. And the point is, its becoming harder and harder to do this effectively. Before the BT buff, it was either a 24-32 meter range a survivor could not take damage. Meaning the killer if smart, had counterplay. This has gone above that to almost 40-ish meters with the current changes. That 5 second difference is huge and makes endgame escapes a lot easier. I should be asking you what makes YOU think survivors are entitled to get a escape for being hooked in a situation where they are SUPPOSED to be getting picked off one by one, by BHVRs own standards.
in dbd, what dictates a survivor or a killer win, is pretty similar. for survivors, a 3 out is a win. getting 3 kills for killer is a win. a killer getting one kill at the end barely isnt a win. and btw, is also the least optimal situation for the killer. the thing is, the more survivors alive the less guaranteed a killer is to secure a endgame kill. if a survivor team is playing well, the killer will barely get one kill if they are not performing well. EVEN with 10 seconds of enduring before hand, it would be very very hard for a killer to get that save. in this situation, the game is working as intended. the survivors work as a team and overwhelm the killer by sheer numbers and get a 4 man. In current day, even ideal situations for killers in the past to get at least a tie, is no longer effective. Thats the reason.2 -
You're skimming a lot of detail here. This only works if the hook happens to be close to a gate. And if you go for the hook closest to a gate for an endgame hook then more fool you.
Most times I've dealt with this situation, the first unhook baiter takes the hit, loses part of their speed boost the unhook animation. (It's often good to wait for a fraction of a second. Because they'll often cancel the animation and you can mind game them. Most killers in this situation are stressed out and just swing to eagerly) then 90% of the time they are too far from a gate to get away and have to run away from the hook to avoid being downed. Putting you between them and the other 2 survs.
A lot of people in this thread making it sound like killers always get constantly slapped in the endgame. But this simply isn't true. Nowadays I very very rarely lose a hook standoff in endgame. If you've been playing right then there should be vey few pallets remaining making the chase much easier and you have the opportunity to herd a survivor away from the gates. When I'm down to 1 gen even I actively avoid hooking near gates.
This is all assuming you are playing a bulk standard m1 killer with no ranged attack, antiloop or traversal. Most killers have myriad of ways to mess with endgame unhook attempts. There's plenty of counterplay available in these situations. Asking for free kills by mechanically weaking survivors in endgame is not the way to go about getting better as a killer.
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okay, but theres still more to boil down here. I can already point out just why this is worse even so. old BT would give you roughly 30 meters worth of distance where you can't get hit and that goes quite far. Currently it can go to almost 40 meters of invincibility and speed. thats just a 5 second boost.
Thats the problem though, if your only goal as survivor is to reach the exit gate, ALL you have to do in endgame is two things.
Be in a swf and go to the door thats opening.
Either get there or go down.
After this, even if you get picked, your teammates can make the hook much harder to secure far away. And even if they dont succeed, RNG dictates how unfortunate you might be. Some situations you might still get hooked far enough to where it isnt super secure. But purely by just running to the door, it can lead to situations where the killer has a much harder time to get you out. And this isnt accounting for BT. If you (the survivor) get unhooked relatively 50 meters away from the gate, against most killers you almost always will escape if your teammates are remotely smart. The only exception is S tier killers.
Before hand, you would have to force the killer into a super uncomfortable situation to get this potential value and it was skill expressive. Now, you just have to be kinda lucky. Since most maps arent that big. So as long as youre in some general area near a door, you have a lot more potential to get out than you used to.
A part of me is a killer main who finds this to be a problem and another part of me finds it really funny from a survivor perspective. believe me, i love BT as survivor right now. I still dont think 15 seconds is fine for the "crunch time" part of the game where killer is supposed to have a edge.-4 -
Three injured survivors on death hook trying to repair a last gen I could no longer regress, but could still use for Nowhere to Hide…how would you use NtH on a blocked gen? 🤨
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Best compromise would be having it start at 15secs then lose 1 second of duration after each completed gen.
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There are several points where this can go wrong. The killer walls off one side of the hook, especially with certain hook locations, blocking the prompt. Multiple points where miscommunication can lead to a 4k (who is going to take hit first, which door is everyone running to, who did the killer decide to chase that needs help, etc. Killer powers that can snowball quickly like traps or Oni/Myers.
As opposed to the high skill killer gameplay deserving of free kills that consists of...staring at the hook and hitting m1 while survivors are animation locked.
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Surv do not have an easy time during endgame unless killer screwed up its own game. Stop claiming something nobody said and thats just untrue.
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You kind of missed the point of what I said earlier. Going after the person who was hooked isn't the right move now that BT is basekit. You get the people who are trying to unhook them. The unhooked person isn't a viable target until after they are unhooked. Add the bt and they require 2 hits to down after the unhook is complete. The rescuer on the other hand is more vulnerable. You can get a wound on them before or when they unhook, then you only need to get one hit and you've secured another hook
Rinse repeat and you'll get at least 1 kill.
Post edited by HoodedWildKard on5 -
I've already shown 2 posts with the math behind it.
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The math is the wrong setup though because of the presumptions that go into it (worst case scenario for killer, best case scenario for survivor)
@Spirit_IsTheBest mentioned all of this which wasn't really responded to.
-There's objects that could be between the survivor and killer. It's not just slightly dodging around an obstacle, there can be buildings or walls in the way.
-They also bring up the issue of why is the presumption that the killer is starting at hook, behind the survivor? If the killer knows the situation is so disadvantageous, why are they at the hook? Why not be trying to body block the survivors path to the gate?
-In terms of application, it also doesn't deal with their point about how the game got there. If the survivor goes down near the gate and everyone is healthy to rescue, they're winning. It shouldn't be surprising at all that its easier for the survivors to accomplish their goal the more things have gone their way in the game to that point.
-They also bring up the idea that every killer in this situation is M1 with no perks or powers that quickly change this equation.
I'll add to all the above, there's no reason the killer has to be targeting the survivor off the hook, the other survivors are still fair game.
And none of this deals with the response to @Dinadin who seems to be discussing endgame more broadly than just this single scenario in a vacuum.
15 seconds is stronger than 10 seconds, but the presented math isn't back up by what is actually present in the game.
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This isn't a "free escape," they popped 5 gens and you lost the game fair and square. What you really want is a free kill, in what universe should you be able to tunnel as a reward for losing 5 gens? Not unfair at all, don't make it to endgame as killer
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so in the endgame where theee are no gens for the killer to patrol and the gates are usually on two different sides of the map what are they supposed to do when they secure a hook?
since anti camp gives free deliverance bt off hook is a free health state + a speed boost if they leave the hook to check a gate it's a free escape for the survivors who can save and bodyblock or alternatively the unhooked takes the hit then gets bodyblocked
as someone who's trying to relearn ghostface what can i do in endgame?
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Pretty sure that's how it works you get what you want but in a bad kinda way
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How far from the gate did you hook them? If it close then it a loss.
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Anti-camp doesn't apply in end game.
as someone who's trying to relearn ghostface what can i do in endgame?As Ghostface, probably try and find a spot to get stalk on the survivors as they come in to get a down.
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Save The Best For Last/Keep Them Waiting does wonders ^ but yes, it honestly makes no sense that Endurance lasts that long in endgame.
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Since when do survivor players care about math or facts? It's all about how they feel.
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Survivors : ermm it should be normal to get to endgame with more survivors alive and games where killers get 2+ survivors out before gates are powered are stomps/tunnel fests and it should be more common to get to end game with more survivors alive to be fair.
Also survivors : uhhh it's endgame and more than 2 survivors are alive? Lol you suck you deserve to lose, no pity kills. Body blocking and endurance are more than fair, if you get to this phase of the game with everyone alive you're bad.
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Ironically, yes.
The killer has 5 gens to build pressure. If the 5 gens pop, that pressure is measured and if the survivors are alive, healthy, etc, tell me why the killer shouldn't be punished? If survivors play bad, they lose the game. If the killer plays bad, they should lose the game.
If this scenario is 'unwinnable', stop putting yourself in the scenario. As killer, you can do that. Why would you chose not to?
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And people wonder how "tunneling" is so "prevalent" - i really believe people exaggerate about tunneling in this game - in the current state of the game.
Really, there is ANYTHING that goes for the if he/she don't commit to taking a survivor out ASAP? Even the endgame got harder in the current update, imagine the rest.
That's exactly what he is saying. People complain about killer using the best strats to even the play field against survivors - removing one from the match as soon as possible, slugging, camping, etc etc - , and these same survivors complain about killers when they say the endgame is harsh, saying killers is asking for a "pity kill" in the endgame, even when they get trolled by the basekit Borrow Time after unhook.
What kind of killer player these people want to go against???
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Its always amazing how people claim something that nobody mentioned and thats not true at all, just to defend their own bias.
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English translation:
As of today, are there still Killers who cry? You’re a legend, my friend, because the epic imbalance between killer and survs is monumental. I imagine that if you’re crying it’s because you went against a premade group; well, you probably deserved whatever happened to you. Then you get matched against solo queue players like me and you start getting cocky and tunneling, and don’t say you don’t—it’s pretty much the only method killers currently use to get a kill. At least before you had some personality, but now you’re all the same. And on top of that you have the nerve to come here and complain. Go cry at home.
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Okay there are some points wrong in your mindset imo:
1. The gens are putting more pressure onto the killers, than they do on the survivors. Genspeed is damn fast…thats why full Gen-Regression Builds and Tunneling is a meta for years now.
2. You picture it like losing basekit bt in endgame is an automatic kill and this is just wrong. The unhook is free with at least 2 Survs running around, so if the survs play good, they still can unhook and escape, while basekit bt just is a free escape in many cases. The only situations where this wouldnt work out well would be against strong killers like blight or nurse, but they are already able to outplay the basekit bt because of them catching up so easy. So basekit bt is hurting weak killers the most and weak killers of course are more often against more survivors in endgame.
3. You act like the survivors need to play good to reach endgame, but this is not correct imo. The only thing they need to do is knowing how to do gens and predrop Pallets against most killers, just to waste time. Endgame isnt that hard to reach against most killers. And this is why i feel your thought of "punishing" the killer is wrong. The basegame isnt designed to get many kills before endgame. Genspeed is to fast, many Maps are unbalanced, many killers arent strong enough against a same level survivor team.-2 -
Well lets turn this the other way then. Should the last survivor instantly die if every other survivor dies instead of the hatch spawning? I mean, they had their 3 teammates plus themselves multiple hooks worth of time to get the gens done and leave. Dont wanna pity them with a free escape via hatch the same way dont wanna give the killer a kill for failing their job. Or if we be more reasonable they just die after every other survivor dies and the hatch is closed. Because they get 2 chances to escape at endgame (how crazy is that? Lol) via the hatch and the gate. So many pity chances. (For the record I dont see a problem with the game as it is now. Just pointing out the funny irony of your statement)
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The point I'm trying to make is not "bad killers should still get kills". It's to point out the hypocrisy of "if 2+ survviors die before X gens are done its tunnneling and is bad and shouldn''t be possible but on the flip side gen rushing isn't real and if a killer cant get a kill before X gens are don they're trash". Or to simplify it even further
"If a survivor dies before gens are powered they got tuneled and BHVR needs to fix it because that's BS"
vs"If a killer fails to get a kill before EGC they're trash, even if they're spreading hooks, BHVR should make it even harder for killers to secure a kill"
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It's to point out the hypocrisy of "if 2+ survviors die before X gens are done its tunnneling and is bad and shouldn''t be possible but on the flip side gen rushing isn't real and if a killer cant get a kill before X gens are don they're trash".
That's not hypocrisy, that's a strawman.
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The point is that the Killer who tunnels and the Killer who complains about not getting pity Kills in Endgame are the same persons. So we have a Killer who tries to tunnel, is too bad and then wants to get a Kill gifted in Endgame, because they sucked too much before to not win with the easiest way to win as Killer.
Someone who goes for Hooks will not really complain about 15 seconds of Endurance. I usually go for Hooks, but when I am in Endgame and 4 Survivors escape, because I played nice and did not tunnel, then I did exactly that - played nice instead of tunneling. Which then also lets me not complain about 15 seconds Endurance in Endgame, even if I camp in Endgame as well.
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Generally I would answer yes, hatch is stupid
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I understand how you're feeling, but it's just feels. I don't understand why you are letting people get to you? Every pvp game will have this sort of thing.
Anyway, I don't think your 'simplification' is at all accurate. If someone is spouting this nonsense, then ignore them? I just don't understand.
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Lkewise, I will try and respond in kind.
1. The gens are putting more pressure onto the killers, than they do on the survivors. Genspeed is damn fast…thats why full Gen-Regression Builds and Tunneling is a meta for years now.
At 5 gens, the killer has the least pressure in the game, save Endgame collapse. They can be stronger or weaker, purely depending on their perk choices. Noed, Remember me, etc can create ridiculous pressure and end in 3-4k, pretty consistantly I would wager. Genspeed is what it is due to BHVR. That isn't a survivor made issue, man. But honestly, if gen speeds came down… do yu really think the killer regression meta would lessen? I'd wager it would be kicked into overdrive even more, as it would be much more effective. Same situation with tunneling: no one likes it, but its efficient, so suck it, survivors.
Thoughts?
2. You picture it like losing basekit bt in endgame is an automatic kill and this is just wrong. The unhook is free with at least 2 Survs running around, so if the survs play good, they still can unhook and escape, while basekit bt just is a free escape in many cases. The only situations where this wouldnt work out well would be against strong killers like blight or nurse, but they are already able to outplay the basekit bt because of them catching up so easy. So basekit bt is hurting weak killers the most and weak killers of course are more often against more survivors in endgame.This is the one I have the most contestation with. Specifically with 'so if the survs play good, they still can unhook and escape, while basekit bt just is a free escape in many cases.' This… this is seriously your take? If a team plays well, they shouldn't be able to escape. I want to look at this from your angle too. So, I am playing killer, I don't do so well in the game and gens fly. End game happens, and I should feel like sine I played bad and they played well, I should get a killer or three.
Yup, can't seem to wrap my head around that one. Please explain for not just me, but the entire class.
So basekit bt is hurting weak killers the most and weak killers of course are more often against more survivors in endgame.Again, BHVR decision, not survivors. Take your bag of animosity and aim it where it should be.
3. You act like the survivors need to play good to reach endgame, but this is not correct imo. The only thing they need to do is knowing how to do gens and predrop Pallets against most killers, just to waste time. Endgame isnt that hard to reach against most killers. And this is why i feel your thought of "punishing" the killer is wrong. The basegame isnt designed to get many kills before endgame. Genspeed is to fast, many Maps are unbalanced, many killers arent strong enough against a same level survivor team.
This one feels like you're just reaching. If survivors play mediocre and reach endgame, the killer was less than mediocre. I don't know what to say man. If this is all about 'weaker killers', then stop playing weaker killers. Survivors only option is to waste time.
What is happening here? A custom?
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This is a really biased generalization that lacks any kind of nuance. No one said all survivors should be alive when gates are powered. Most people agree that a killer hard tunneling someone out at 5gens is scummy and bad for the game. If you've been spreading hooks all game but don't have a kill by end game, you'd likely get at least one because the survivor already has a hook state or two. I win a lot of my matches in end game because everyone generally has hooks and they're often injured. Even matches where I played God awfully bad I still regularly win in end game.
On the other hand, if I'm playing survivor and a teammate is dead at 5 gens up, there's pretty much nothing I can do. I'm just trapped in a lost match. The situations just aren't the same, nor is the balance of power. One side can easily flip the script while the other generally can't.
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I will say that you have to decide where you're hooking or to choose to slug in this situation.
When you are killer, you should NOT be hooking someone near an exit gate. I do not care if the gate has no progress, you cannot proxy camp a hook AND a gate at the same time - you will lose unless end-game perks are available.
You have slugging at your disposal, use it.
You have the ability to hook survivors away from the exit gate, do it. You have the ability to hook in basement (extra points if away from exit gates) - use it.
You hook me (or another Survivor) near a gate, I will pressure your gate. You try to slug at end-game, I will work around you and pick up my survivor teammate or focus on getting the gate first. Just like I decision-making at end-game, you have the same tools as a killer.
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