Tunneling issue
First game in the event just now. Tunnelled out by a Myers. Makes me really not want to play the event or dbd as a whole. Somehow we went from trying to address the tunneling situation, failed idea after failed idea to now THIS. No mentions of it ever & it just continues. I just got back from work, hop on for some casual dbd event bp farming & barely get to play the game I paid for. What an experience. It's horrendous.
Comments
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It's a massive issue that is costing us new players and burning out players more. I don't understand why the devs are so content with forcing 4 people to have to babysit some jerk's fragile ego. We're honestly the only game I play with severe dc penalties while having no actual competitive mode to justify, while looking the other way at the biggest reason FOR said dcs. It's honestly one of the most solvable things we have. An honor system with rewards would go so hard. If you as a killer/survivor get low honor enough the queue takes longer to place you. People who play well will be rewarded and the toxic players get to play with each other until they either stop playing, or shape up.
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Run DS. Its a free perk accessible to all. So there's that one. There's also several anti-tunnel perks that you could be using, but at least DS is free.
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Look, i'll be one of the first to agree that tunneling is bad for the game. But you need to stop blaming the players for using the strategy and start blaming the devs.
Blaming the player is completely ridiculous and just leads to more us vs them mentality.
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I'm so tired of this argument, why is it survivor players HAVE to run anti tunnel instead of teaching killers to make up for whatever game sense they lack. I don't need to tunnel, I 3 to 4k fine, if I lose I lose I wasn't better and that's fine.
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No I will blame the player, BHVR is at fault with how much they flip flop on issues, but I'm tired of being lumped in with jerks who have irl issues they take out on people in a game. Not even league of Legends community sit on their heels and not call people on this. A toxic Yone is a toxic Yone it's not Riot's fault he's a loser or whatever irl. And no one pretends him being that way is just a strat
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Again with the us vs them mentality. First i'll point out there are many things killers have to do that are the same, but i don't want to get into it. I will say that this mentality of yours is that of a scrub. Not in a derogatory sense, but more of a clinical one.
I would suggest reading the free ebook by game designer David Sirlin:
who talks about this, but the point is simply this.
If i am playing the game to win, then my goal is to win the game. The game itself doesn't know rules like "tunneling or camping or cheapness" all it knows is "did i win". So i am going to use a strategy that i think will lead to the best chance of me winning. There are 2 points about tunneling that can be said. Either its a strategy that has a counter, and you need to learn the counter and get better at the game and deal with it. Or the strategy has no counter, and its unstoppable.
In both cases, if the strategy has a counter, then its on you to learn the counter and not on me who might be employing the strategy. Then, you simply learn the counter, and now you are no longer a victim to it. If the strategy HAS no counter, then wouldn't i be a fool for not employing said strategy in my effort to win? Why would i not use the most effective tools i can in order to win the game?
Compare this to say, chess. If you make a mistake in chess and lose your queen, should i like "not take the queen" because its "cheap"? Or should i punish you for your mistake, and win the game because of it? Why would i not do the thing that is likely going to lead to me winning the game?
Now, it could be true that maybe your goal is not to win the game, and that is fine, you have a different goal. But then if that is the case, you shouldn't be getting mad at people who are queuing up for a competitive game and trying to win.
Now, again, the point i'm making isn't that tunneling is good. I think tunneling is bad for the game and should be dealt with at a systemic level my making it just impossible to do. I have my own ideas on that that i have posted on these forums many times. But my point is simply, stop blaming the players for using the strategies in the game that the devs allow to exist, and start blaming the devs for allowing those strategies to exist.
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That's a lot of word salad to not address at all what I said. Tunneling and camping is not in fact a strat, it's an abuse of game design that wasn't thought about or how it could be abused. Also by your own fallacy argument you have us vs them mentality by inferring I'm survivor main. Official stats already showed the dreaded swfs win 1% over casual. Because they aren't actually that huge of an issue. Killers are just too used to these 'strats' and when hard countered cannot deal because they never addressed what in their playstyles that was the actual problem.
Every argument I've ever seen on this is the equivalent of something like Overwatch telling top 500 players they're need to be handicapped because plat players are upset they get rocked in qp. I want my skill to be seen as skill. Not abuse a mechanic devs didn't think would be an issue and everyone around me has to build around the off chance I play that way.2 -
what a daft reply.
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THIS!!
Tunneling is a game design issue, not a specific players problem. People don't like to hear but forcing a 3v1 situation is needed in most matches against the best players, specially if you are on a low level killer. I'm completely against hard tunneling but some forms of "soft" tunneling are needed if you want to win.
Devs should really look into this issue considering how they can make everyone have a good time within DBD without making the anti-tunnel features exploitable in high level.
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I'm sorry to inform you that if you say you mostly win without cheese than you are clearly low MMR, even though MMR goes up with wins, yours just somehow doesn't because reasons. You are only a true killer main if you complain endlessly about how hard your matches are and how every match is against a comp 4man and about how much you lose while still being upper MMR because, again, this magic invisble number somehow never changes. You are never, ever allowed to say that it's fine to lose to people who are better than you. It's maps, perks, RNG, and survivors being OP that cost you your deserved wins. You're are also, in fact, a crying survivor main, somehow.
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I will readily say that maps n m1 killers are a issue that desperately need looking at. Trapper I know is often brought up and he does need help. But he and a few others are product of when the game was stealth based rather than chase. And as much as I rag on BHVR, I don't think there really is a viable way to help him that wouldn't make him soft skull merchant 1.0 miserable. Then we have maps like Coldwinds that is WAY too small and is a massive buff to speed killers rather than helpful to m1ers, or the eyrie tiny map that's just a massive deadzone. The Game being just a miserable time as killer for being pallet city so you are having to try so much harder.
I honestly just get tired of the same tired excuse of why it's okay to make 4 others miserable when it's honestly just better to find out what you lack in your playstyle and improve. I was bad at mindgames for a long time and I set to learning and watching how teammates looped when I'd play survivor and it's helped tremendously.2 -
No surprise. During event all the scummy players come back to ruin event queue for everyone else. Imagine people just hopping in even queue to play the most annoying build thats possible right now.
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I was with you until you said tunneling should be made impossible to do. They didn't quite do that with the first anti-tunneling measure tested on the PTB, but they came very close with how harshly it punished any killer that dared to hook a survivor they had already hooked before they'd hooked every other survivor twice (but never the same survivor twice in a row.)
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I don't know why you're being downvoted, you're correct.
Bouncing off of your comment here:
Tunneling is a natural byproduct of DbD's core mechanics. It's the most logical and efficient strategy for the Killer to employ. Being annoyed players are playing the game in a way its mechanics incentivise is laughable. It's a PvP game, you're going to encounter people playing to win. If that's not your thing, fine, you can either play something else, or place your blame appropriately on the one's that designed the game that way.
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4 down votes for every Killer that wins, 4 upvotes for every Killer that loses, sounds like a super idea.
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There are RNG issues for sure. I will forever rail against locker spawns as Dredge, and Badham is pretty much an autoloss for me with him/it/whatever. Lery's is a similar issue for lockers. But those issues screw over both sides. Will say though, I'm currently maining Henry and The Game is dream.
I don't get it either, and it's a common mindset. I give people hatch all the time because they give up or get sandbagged by disgruntled teammates. I don't know how you down someone who's just standing there looking at you. What's the point of these wins?
Meanwhile, as survivor, mercy is rare. I had a Ghoul last night playing like a dick. Tunneled the first hooked, teammates tried to interrupt and got slugged, then they all DCed one minute in and I was alone in this match with a killer who was still doing their best to find me. Like bro had zero chill. I could never.
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Its honestly making this event unplayable
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If your familiar with my posts i wouldn't do it with some bandaid feature like they did on the PTB that worked out horribly. I would do it from a fundamental game design perspective. I.E. something like, survivors share the 1st hook state, so if you want to "tunnel someone out" you still are gonna need 6 hooks to do it.
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Because i tell the truth. And telling the truth is crazy in a world full of lies.
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Remember our talk about baseball bats?
If someone smacks you with a baseball bat, who do you blame?
The company that made the bat, the baseball bat itself, or the guy who smacked you?
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Tunneling is a game design issue, not a specific players problem.
This is true in a vacuum.
Except the devs did acknowledge this design flaw, worked and tested a fix, and a small but insanely loud minority screamed NO and they immediately did a 180.
So, at least since 9.1 PTB, a share of this blame rests on players who demanded it stay, threatened, lied, manipulated, and screamed that it be scrapped. Don't tweak, don't iterate, don't adjust, don't fix.
So when BHVR ultimately caved to that and pulled the plug on the test, then unfortunately it stops being solely a design issue.
If I told someone, hey I want to fix this problem, what do you think? And they said absolutely not, do nothing or I'll burn your house down. Then I don't think it's entirely on me if that issue isn't fixed at that point.
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Objective for killer is to kill survivors so tunneling (even when its not fun especialy for person being tunneled but some dont want do do it but game rewards kills not hooks) is killer doing his objective like it or not its like me saying but survivors stacking on one progressed gen even when Im around shouldnt happen but its their objective so they can.
If tunneling was seen unwanted as facecamping than it would be possible.
Another thing that makes tunneling happen is that it has no equal in its effectiveness thats why i happens other thing is sometimes there is just situation like take loss or tryto get kill with tunnel to have chance to get another kill so ots just strategy that is overused because of its effectivenes and simplicity.
Another thing is there are hundreads of people screeming to nerf it but in order to change something repressing it isnt only thing you can do like there is no benefit for killer to go for other people and spread hooks only things that make killers to spread are their dislike to tunneling with their morality or perks that get value from fresh hooks like pain res, grim or the lack of choices or info on survivors.
In order to change something repressing something you must to benefit people for not doing it so you motivate them because even as we saw in ptb with untitunnel changes the debuffs still hurt the ones that didnt tunneled directly but hardcore tunnelers (the ones that play like it was comp match) werent that punished and first antitunnel patch had solid reward for not tunneling but second didnt.
People will tunnel because it has no equal in gameplay effectivness thats why you see it that often but people like truetalent spoke about it in 2020-22 and still get smoked because few years after that devs foundout they must do something about it but werent even in picture what they want to change like in camping they take it as strategy but they diddnt liked the facecamping and staying near hook for to long so thats why there are features for that but they even couldnt clearly say what in tunneling or what type they want to change like do they want to punish hardcore tunneling from the start or endgame tunneling or all they couldnt clearly answer this.
If you want to something change you must know what and have some plan not just go back and fort and have no clue what you want to change.
The clear thing is kills are the main thing killer is rewarded in and tunneling is simple and effective so it will happen.
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Look you might not like how they play but can we knock off the they have "irl issues". The vast majority of the people I've been annoyed at for how they play and when I've been able to interact with them in EGC or if they were a TTV, in their chat. I've backed down at my annoyance at them because they have been decent people (well, from what I can tell from my little interaction with them). It usually turns out it was nothing personal, nor were they trying to be toxic, ruin everyone's day, etc. They just were playing "I see survivor, I chase, down and hook them." Nothing more deep than that.
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In the current patch, spreading hooks without tunneling is frowned upon because it amounts to handing Fast Track tokens to the survivors. Whether the survivors try to take them or not, just like with DS and DH, the mere presence of these hooks in the environment is enough to put them on high alert.
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its part of the game bro, just deal with it and hit next
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No because this is the only game where we had to have a abandon feature because killers humped for 4 straight minutes while the otherside had to sit bleeding out. Any other game would be flame broiled for how disgusting that behavior is. But oh no we have to pretend people actively causing these issues aren't insanely insecure in their day to day.
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Also adding to this, not one post I've seen on this event has been positive, it's just on how insanely cruel killers are playing. How most hide their names to trash talk in EGC. How one person is tunneled out before the game has progressed beyond a minute. And the reason why they do this? Because they can because BHVR has all but told them their behavior is acceptable. When in any other game they know this would result in a suspension or a ban. And when BHVR decides the money pit created by them isn't worth it and we all suffer whatever insanely overreaching they do I have no sympathy.
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why don't you play killer instead and wait for your friends to get on to play dbd as survivor ?
getting tunneled ehen playing with friends there is plenty you can do to avoid it . Solo queue will always be a meh experience.-2 -
Tunneling exists because BHVR lets it exist. Yeah, some bad players go too far with it I'll say it outright, but blaming them is senseless because blaming them won't fix anything. No amount of blame will make tunneling stop, and no amount of shaming will correct the behavior. If you just want to vent that's valid, but let's not pretend its constructive.
Killers will tunnel as long as tunneling is an option. It's a staple that has evolved into the pool and the djinni cannot be put back into the lamp. Optimized play is a phenomenon that occurs in all games. Optimized for survivors is gen rushing while a dedicated looper distracted. Optimized for Killers is tunneling to reduce the workforce on the generators from 100% to 75% or lesser.
To be clear I don't much care for this - it's boring. But to be equally clear, no amount of moral grand-standing or brow beating will ever change either behavior. It doesn't matter if 1 in 5 surv groups is a tryhard SWF, or if 1 in 100 is a tryhard SWF, the optimized play style from a killer is going to be to tunnel, proxy, and slug in case they lose that gamble. Equally it doesn't matter if 1 in 5 killers tunnel, or 1 in 100, the negative confirmation bias will drive them to play in sweatier fashion just in case.
Both sides are playing to win. It's not an 'exploit' to tunnel, if it was it would have been coded out. 'They tried but didn't' is not valid, as the operative term there is 'didn't.' It's not an exploit anymore than endurance body blocking is an exploit.
This is just the game as it is, and it's okay to not like the game as it is. The current meta and optimization playstyle is exhausting and often disappointing for both sides. As a Killer I find tunneling boring and frankly mind-numbing when I feel I have to do it. As a survivor playing the generator minigame and pre-running on TR is equally mind-numbing and boring.
We just need the meta to get mixed up, and things to be balanced out in such a fashion that neither of the current optimizations are viable anymore.1 -
That's a ridiculous analogy, because it would be like being upset at a player on the opposing team for stealing a base. When you should be mad at the people who created the rules of the game that allow you to steal a base.
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ds is currently bugged so expect a lot of tunnel, i recommend sprint burst, shoulder the burden, off the record, and anything else u like and wanna use, this would help a lot in tunnel by daylight meta.
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DS seems bugged in this update, 2 times it did nothing for me, despite hitting the skillcheck… so there's that
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Wow, an anti-slug perk AND an anti-tunnel perk bugged at the same time? Fun times…
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Let's clear the thought process then.
The bat in question is a tool, usually used to play baseball. You can however usually use a bat to play other games, sweep under couches to get something, get a impromptu drum beat going, and of course smack a fool across the face along with whatever other imaginative things you can think of.
The company in question is basically making things that can be used to play baseball. They're not telling people what to do with the bat, they just make tools for the game.
Obviously the guy who smacked you wanted to smack you for whatever reason. Could be a valid reason, could be a crazy reason, but for whatever reason they did the deed. They used the tool made by the company to deal direct damage to the face, arm, or [insert part here].
So, in light of this, what would you pick?
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Reminder that DBD is an asymm pvp game with survivor being the role that can be eliminated from the trial. You can play casual all you want but don't expect someone else to do the same.
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I love your energy, but not your conclusion: Puts me in quite a position!
This is somewhat disingenuous. 'The Company in question is basically making things that can be used to play baseball' is a narrow focus. The Company isn't just making the bat, they are making the bat, the bases, the protective gear, the balls, the mitts, all of it. To suggest that they just make the bat removes the onus of their responsibility by suggesting they are just giving us things and we do what we want with them in a game someone else designed.
This isn't the case. They make it all, including the rules to the game.
If the lead Yankee's batter (I don't know I'm not a sports person) swung, hit the ball, then carried the bat with him to first base and cold-clocked the person there to avoid them tagging him out we would not be saying 'Wow, he's an arse, but there's no rules against it. It's a thing only arses do.' No, he'd be delisted, benched, and quite possibly banned outright because the rules do not allow for this behavior.
BHVR doesn't just make the bat, they make the rules, the perks, the build limits, consumables, tools, add-ons, killer kits, all of it. What is allowed in the game is everything they do not explicitly and directly rule out. They can rule it out by nerfing it, coding it out, removing the possibility entirely, etc.
Thus the onus lay with BHVR. If they want tunneling to not exist, they will make it not exist. If they want a perk to not do X, they will make that perk not do X. Yes they have pressure from their players, as well as devs, coders and the industry at large but the onus is theirs. Dismissing the application of rules and changes in favor of 'just be a nice fella' in a PVP Game is… I like the spirit, I do, but that's the kind of optimism I cannot fathom. I don't trust people to use blinkers, let alone to be sensible and balanced in a PVP game.
TL-DR; Kinda, but if it was possible, legal, and not punished by the leagues I'm pretty sure we would see people getting silly with those bats in baseball.0 -
Again, this is a bad analogy because a baseball bat is an object, not a game that can be played.
The better analogy is the sport of baseball in general, where you can PLAY the game. Getting mad at a player for using things that are literally spelled out as allowed in the rules of the game, is ridiculous if you think its THAT unfair, then you should be pitching that the rules get changed.
Or chess for example. Should you get mad at the player for taking your queen that you left hanging? No, you should not.
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I'm not talking about BM. If you are I didn't get that from your previous posts.
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TL-DR; Kinda, but if it was possible, legal, and not punished by the leagues I'm pretty sure we
wouldsee people getting silly with those bats in baseball.
And that's sorta the point. Because there's nothing people have the choice. BECAUSE people are choosing to do things that make others miserable the blame goes to the people.
Yes the devs make the rules and can be blamed for not setting their foot down, but all the actions currently happening go to the players choices because they have the freedom to choose.
Edit: sorry, hit the post button by accident
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I disagree. Its up to the devs to push the update even if a part of the community disagrees if it was needed to the game's health.
The 9.2.0 was a mess, it created far more problems than it solved and made almost every new mechanic abusable at high level. I played a lot of that PTB and was shocked on how easy it was to abuse those systems and even use it against "nice" killers.
Devs shouldn't have discarded it completely, but worked with community on how to improve the system for both killers and survivors so no one felt left behind.
People on this forums say it was a "loud minority" that was against the 9.2.0 system but it was much more than that. BHVR have been pushing many controversial patches even when people complain about things in PTB, i don't see why they wouldn't do this if it only made content creators unhappy. But a large part of the community - even survivors - was very vocal about how this update would change the game.
Anyway, its up to the devs to craft mechanics or at least address clearly to the community what they think about Tunneling and Slugging, because it is THEIR game overall.
Anyway, blaming the community itself for a game design problem doesn't seem the right thing to me.
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They didn't "pull a 180" they scrapped the terrible design and went back to the drawing board. Now, if I am being honest, I don't think they will ever come up with a fair way to stop slugging and tunneling. As a P100 Pig Main that hates to do it (I rarely "slug for the 4k" even. if someone gets hatch, I still see that as an overall win for me. I don't NEED that Mori animation especially if we are being honest, her Mori sucks) and a survivor dabbler (I'd say I'm about 60/40. I am Robin main survivor side) I do think they should do something about it, but that does not mean doing something absolutely horrible for the game rather than nothing. I hope eventually they will come up with an actually good idea of how to reduce the effectiveness of slugging and tunneling without inadvertently allowing survivors to abuse their inability to be slugged or tunneled, but I have no faith.
EDIT: Also, I think it's unlikely anyone made a credible threat to burn their houses down (not saying this community woudn't make such a threat, though I saw none) and even if they did, nobody who actually had legitimate issues with that PTB wanted or asked for them to DO NOTHING. We said DO NOT DO THIS. DO NOT DO THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS DO NOTHING.0 -
"Casual" is code for easy win. Both sides want to win. When im a survivor i want to juke the killer and get out. When im killer i prefer a 4k. (With a occasional mercy hatch for anyone with a funny name) this is just players trying to win and the complaints pour in several event. But survivors gonna keep looping and killers gonna keep killing. This is the game.
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