Diminishing Returns will Fail

Most genrush perks will be fine. Great job bhvr.

From watching the stream it would include gen perks.

They said things such as killer ad ons and items don't contribute to diminishing returns tho.

Ah I thought the items would be affected. That's good they aren't.

You'd have to consider what Thano would conflict with, and how. It's not regress, it's slow down. It's kinda confusing what will negate what. I've never done the ptbs but I might this time just to fully understand.

Making it work team wide would be awful for soloq. There is already more harm for them with this change than SWF, who will just cordinate their builds around this.

There have been talks also that seeing perks in pre lobby to fellow other survs in lobby will be a thing, we are one step closer to that and i think with this diminishing system in place along side visible perks to one another will be great, and it will show who wants to play as a team and who wants to sabotage their own team by being selfish

I forgot who announced it was it mandy or someone else from the team that MMR system change is coming and the perks will be visible to the survivors around late 2026 or early 2027

They said things such as killer ad ons and items don't contribute to diminishing returns tho.

That's interesting, since the most obvious source of gen repair sites is toolboxes.

We've already been having a lot of talk about the problems with that. Dodging will increase, so will pregame chat conflicts. Only really specific perks are problematic, like Left Behind, but people will dodge many things based on assumptions. I would too. I'm tired of bad matches.

They will find a way to coordinate around it. It's only affecting modifiers, so niche builds and synergies are gonna pop up. Being able to have only one healing perk that works properly on a whole team is crazy unfair though. Global perk nerfs by team would probably make me quit the survivor side of this game. I'm hanging on by a thread as it is. As killer, I won't have to balance my loadout around three strangers every match. As survivor, basically every viable type of perk is nerfed if it factors in everyone.

Yeah it would lead to conflict but this is like a population issue, it leads down to the core problem which is going to be people prefer playing MP Squad games with friends to avoid.

Also im pretty sure the devs will eventually either way we like it or not an ability for soloq survivors to see each other perks, so sadly we will get lobby dodgers, people who do it nowadays run clients that are illegal to dodge lobbies

In any way you look, it will be horrible

I think making it worldwide and letting people adjust to these changes would be go to, and letting players see the perks and warn which are conflicting, like think about tiny orange or yellow alert or red that says "conflict, reduced perk value".

So then people hot swap profiles and there is more variety.

Its a very finicky process if you ask me as you mentioned 16 survivor perks vs 4 killer perks.

Both treated equally when it cant be equally.

This change that is coming is probably related to how some people that player killers and some survivors that are highly cordinated beat one another like we all here know the term baby killer, baby survivor etc.

This is not made for those type of players, if anything its for the situations where hard stomp squads selectivly stack perks very effectivly and same goes for killers.

Im just saying killer since its only 4 perks, and you are alone vs 4 other players vs 16 other perks, not talking about soloQ here, soloq players will enjoy this update and baby killers since they just slap on a random build they think works or find meta one.

But if we disect this fully, a killer wont be able to bypass their stack perk nerfs like swfs would be able to if it applies total, the system must see that swfs are stacking it differently not just the same perks but rather very similar perks that give same end goal results.

This is potentially deadly for us some in higher bracket for mmr, since soloq at that point becomes also kinda meta and players can be like "aha this guy is conflicting with me, let me match his synergy" while on killer you are forced to swap a specific build for variety perks that simply wont have such stopping power.

Like since there is only 1 killer and 4 survivors

Probably spread out like through out 4 hook states, my best bet

I personally use DMS, GRIM in my build always on most m1 killers who dont have mobility to just control the game a bit and slow it down, initially those perks dont regress but they deny repair and lock it down.

They will have to specify if its total full gen slowdown or gen regression perks that take away value of gens.

You are not wrong, we just need more clarification from Ryan and test out the PTB.

I am figuring out on same tempo as everyone else, they didnt show everything entirely until PTB drops for players to test it them selves with other combos.

vigil needs to have the exposed removed and lowered to be somewhere in between it's release and buffed version. Alot of problematic perks don't even stack such as hyperfocus , stakeout , fast track . Sprint burst and lithe could have longer exaustion to encourage using other exaustion perks .

I don't like removing build variety for either side

The only builds I see that will be impacted are haste (stacking being incredibly niche), healing speed (again, very niche), and like 2 "regression perks".

Most meta builds like aura read and gen control is unaffected, since triggers for taking chunks of a gen are typically unique. It isn't even clear if something like pop+eruption is included but pop+eruption and surge+eruption are basically the only regression combos that share an activation condition and do basically the same thing with different percentages.

The only clearly impacted perks would be call of brine and overcharge, which honestly I fully expect they will buff those as well to help offset the impact of this system.

I'll also add that this doesn't even come close to perk interactions that can have a massive impact. Like, for example, thrill+ftd can up to triple hex cleanse times and these two perks aren't in "the same category". Ftd isn't even an action speed modifier, technically.

I'm not overly concerned, and I don't think they'll let it hit killers hardest honestly. The reason being, as discussed in this thread, is that perks cover a huge variety of things. Does Thanaphobia conflict with ruin? Does ruin, as a passive regress, conflict with gen blocking perks? Etc etc. Equally would hyperfocus+Stake-out get hit at all, given they don't technically touch 'gen speed' at all.

I think the BHVR teams only real logical option (and one I honestly assume they will take) will be to start by making categories of effects regardless of the perks as written read, and then go from there. "Gen Slow Down" being a possible tag, for instance, to address all of the gen blocks, regressions, and so on. Equally a "Gen Speed Up" category that would include things like Hyper-Focus + Stake-Out.

Killers are going to be inherently harder to effect as their perks trigger less times than survivor perks, typically anyway. Pain res, by example only triggers 4 times so it becomes a take to balance that with diminishing returns without using time windows. If you use time windows (instances of perk trigger within X Seconds) then it would hit killers harder, but also slap survivors who inherently trigger perks more often across spans of time.

Overall I think this will will happen in the following cadence.

1 - Initial Release is a nightmare, slaughtering balancing, and both survivors and killers alike cry the sky is falling.
2 - Now that diminishing returns are in effect, perk balance can be re-addressed without worrying about run-away effects being stackable and thus destroying balance.
3 - End result will be a more balanced and simplified experience with perks.

It's a tumultuous road to be sure, but one that has been a long time coming. Survivors inherently stack less (I'm a killer main, before someone calls me survivor sided for that comment) because they need to stack them less. Survivor perks often given larger percentage gains than killer ones - 50% on Botany for example. Bigger numbers will make the diminishing returns look worse than they are for survivors, and will feel worse for killers than they are just due to how the small tweaking of percentages will play out. But beyond that, it'll put us all in a better place for a healthier game tomorrow.

I think diminishing returns is a good idea in concept, but they're going to have to look at all the perks it affects and rebalance some of them.
Because currently, the perks are balanced around being able to stack them without reducing their effectiveness, and some perks provide only a minor increase that are only useful when stacked with something else.

But it is a good idea - as long as the affected perks are re-balanced to being good on their own. Then you can give your build more variety instead of stacking the same effect on every perk. Hopefully the devs understand they have to re-visit all these perks and look at their numbers.

its literally not out yet. can we at least wait until we have the ability to see the details of how itll work in full before we doompost about how the new feature would destroy dbd?

It definitely is a major misunderstanding from the lead design team to think that diminishing returns on modifiers will improve build variety. Pretty much all the meta builds ignore modifier stacking already and always have. Those changes are basically pushing the We'll Make It/Desperate Measures/Botany etc crowd (which already are a minority) toward the good ole reliable cookie cutter meta builds (DS, UB, OTR, exhaustion etc). And don't even get me started on the killer role, who can only benefit from 4 perks, not 16. Why would a Clown player keep bothering with "exotic" perks such as Batteries Included and Rapid Brutality when they can just pick two gen perks that they're not already using instead and that they will actually get the full effects of?