http://dbd.game/killswitch
We need to disincentivize unhealthy playstyles
I said it once and I will keep saying it. My last 8 matches as a survivor have been against extremely aggresive tunneler or camper killers. Always high mobility. Wesker, Blight, Billy and Kaneki (adding Oni as of last match - throw in a slugging Nurse too). It's extremely frustrating and disincentivizing as a player to constantly be pitted against this people, not to say, as I have always claimed, that promoting a way of playing that enjoys destroying and limiting the amount of interaction one player is able to do in a game seems kind of troublesome to me. I see it no different than those who prey on the weak and bully (yes, I'm using that term, I have been acquainted with bullies for pretty much my entire childhood and I see them on a regular basis at my job) other players just to get an easy win. And I refuse to believe that anyone is able to enjoy a game in which they only camp or tunnel. If they really do, I do wonder how healthy or 'not evil' their psyche is.
This goes for SWFs too, obviously, even though usually as a killer you have at least the option to try and do something or find the weakest link.
I'm not saying the ability to camp or tunnel, or the one to use flashes or protection hits should be taken away. I do think SWFs should go, but I know without a doubt that that's definitely not gonna happen. Anyway, I reiterate that abusing one of the gameplay mechanics to cheese a match or simply enjoy making other people feel miserable and bad by abusing said mechanics seems extremely wrong to me and measures should be taken towards solving these all too common situations.
Maybe make all these guys play in the same matchmaking pool, whatever. I know there are plans on doing something like that, but yeah. We complain about people DCing but it's only natural when facing certain individuals of dubious morals once and once again, and then people DCing is punished for trying to get a match in which they can, at least, advance on their goals, be it completing dailies, tome challenges or whatever.
I know I want to play the game but I don't want to waste all afternoon just because some d guy wants to have some laughs or a fun time by making people go through with their sick idea of having fun. Truthfully, not much different from bullying someone IRL or other shady activities.
Edit: As of this edition, 12 matches, in which I got to escape in 2 matches. The other 10, all of them were camping, tunneling and / or slugging. Switching to killer now, but I have a feeling the experience will not differ much somehow.
Comments
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I just want to state for the record I have never seen someone that complains about camping and tunneling also be good at the killer role. Every singular person that has commented "I can 4k without tunneling/slugging/camping" I will always click their profile(reddit, insta, twitter, tiktok, whatever) out of curiosity. Sometimes they are youtubers or streamers.
If they are one, amazing, now I can see how they play since maybe I can learn a thing or two about killer, makes sense right? I've sat there and watched their killer gameplay and they are awful at killer and do the most obvious mistakes. They will play TL walls/shack incorrectly, not hide their red stains in chase, eat every single pallet stun, lose most of their 50/50s, get spun out occasionally, and ive even seen them chase survivors around a tall rock for a solid 20 WHOLE seconds.
To this day I STILL have not run into a person that says they can 4k without tunneling/slugging/camping also be good at killer.
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I can. Sure, many times I get matches in which I can't. As was my last one I just played. 4 hooks, all of them got alive, and of course the stupid Mikaela had to tbag at the exit gate. Those are the kind of players that we would be better off without.
That's what MMR is supposed to be for, even though many times it doesn't work.
Being able to 4k by using those 'tactics' doesn't justify them. Sure, I guess I could make a lot of money by scuming people, that doesn't mean it's fine to do so or that I will. I see it no different, truth be told. In essence, all you are doing is taking advantage of something to take something out of people.
Edit: Being good is kind of subjective and totally relative.
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You sound like an incredible killer player, would love to see some of this footage of you 4king without tunneling and slugging and camping! We could all learn a thing or two from you.
Also it's not subjective. You either do certain things correctly while playing killer, or you don't.-2 -
You either fail to understand or to communicate, or you're trying to be a troll without success. I'm not saying I can 4k every match, nor is the purpose of the game. You have a problem (we have it as a player base) if you think you should or are entitled to 4k every match.
Your saying I must be an incredible player because I am able to 4k without resorting to cheap tactics is both absurd, lame bait and irrelevant. I'm an average player and I get 4k as much as I get 0k. Still, irrelevant.
Now, are you going to say something on topic or are you going to keep rambling about your inability to get 4k without tunneling (or lack of acceptance of the fact that you are not supposed to get 4k consistently)?
Edit: For more details, this second match I got 2k, but only because I camped the last hooked survivor when the gates were powered.5 -
One of the bigger problems later is Boil over corner plays with sabo teams. Ruining basic gameplay with a spam system that has needed nerfed for a long time
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Yeah, I have had some of those players sometimes and it is a pain and uncounterable by any means.
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If im better then you, then I should 4k, doesnt that make sense?
Again upload some footage my man. You sound like an amazing killer player because you can get 4ks without tunneling and slugging. Heck we should send that footage to Otzdarva too since he has 14k hours and still has to tunnel/camp-4 -
i was engaged with your post until i read the following line:
I do think SWFs should go, but I know without a doubt that that's definitely not gonna happen.
i think i reserve the right to air out my grievances henceforth. i fail to see why we should punish people for playing with their friends and coordinating in a game that requires some level of coordination to succeed, or what relevancy this has to what you were talking about. i am going to assume that this is yet another dead air post that doesn't contribute to anything meaningful, as this is what the forums have ultimately devolved to.
for starters, my issue that i have with posts like these is that they never consider the entire picture for why someone may play a certain way to begin with. they never consider the fact that:- efficient play styles for this game are due to the fact the meta and foundation of the game is solved
- players are being conditioned to play more aggressively or defensively
- the game is intentionally designed to be based around luck and chances in regular matches
- the game favors extremely impactful playstyles and builds over passive skill expression
- mistakes are made because the team is playing altruistically
- players are hovering around objectives which the killer may be trying to defend
- the killer is placed in a position where they need to obtain and keep pressure (either due to maps, RNG, the killer they're playing, the game's pace, etc.)
- someone is simply having a bad day or is reacting to a game that was rough prior
- someone has their own vision on how to play the game
- the nature of the game becoming more competitive has changed player behavior
and rather than taking it on the chin and accepting that this is something that is not going to change given the nature of the game (like how we used to in other games back in the day), we end up with mountains of posts repeating the same rhetoric and playing the blame game. this is the same portion of the community that continuously pushes for more and more changes to suit their comfort and convenience, rather than taking it upon themselves to address the problem differently. i have never seen a game community become this horrible with the "me first" mentality. obviously, there's always going to be the sadistic individuals that, in your words, "abuse" mechanics for their personal enjoyment. but the reality is that this is a game, and everyone is here to play.
you are not going to stop someone from pulling out cheap tactics or doing something simply to cause chaos. you get this everywhere else, so where does DBD make a difference?
now, to address the real problem behind this post: on top of the persistent hyperbole with no proof of these back-to-back matches, i feel that these posts do nothing more than to encourage echo chambers of no accountability. if you're finding yourself regularly getting tunneled, slugged, and camped, you are more than likely putting yourself in these situations rather than playing around them or acknowledging the cause of a situation like that to begin with. at some point the issue, in some form or fashion, circles back around to you. and instead of questioning if that's the case, rather than trying to problem solve, you come to the forums to complain about this hoping to have people agree with you (typically in the mask of morality) when we've had this conversation at least 500 times. even if someone were to provide a argument in good faith, it always ends up with some emotional reply that doesn't make the situation any better. it's exhausting.this is the issue with majority of people who make claims like these. every single one of you that has made a post like this is stretching the truth or refusing to acknowledge your own mistakes in some capacity. then you use words like "bullying" and "toxicity" to refer to the masses who may play in a particular way and propose some sort of solution that does nothing other than take away someone's ability to play the game or have autonomy. nothing is ever enough for any of you. and this goes for both sides. everybody wants their cake and eat it too, but the second that something becomes a mild inconvenience, we cry for its removal or want the harshest punishments for the offender.
for the record, this post is not targeting you, but rather the countless individuals in this playerbase that are persistent in trying to pressure people into having others play their way through posts like these and the premise behind this post. these people flood the forums with garbage, provoke 'us vs. them' debates, and intentionally incite chaos in a platform where users are leaving en masse because we can't even have a regular conversation without someone derailing and trying to scream the loudest about something that cannot be changed about others. we're to the point now where moderators are forced to be active on weekends to ban troll and ragebait accounts because of crap like this.
and look. even if BHVR somehow came up with a way to "punish" people for doing these things, there's always going to be a way for someone to inflict misery. you're not going to patch that out, and the more you try to make people comfortable, the more people are going to resent the game. you're not going to please everyone, and people will do what they want. the nature of games is to win, complete an objective, or have the most positive outcome that is defined by you.
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I'm all for deincentivizating camping, slugging, and tunneling, but you want this and SWF gone? So what's left? Every match being identical, with a hook spreading killer going against 4 solos? Boring as hell.
I'm really tired of everyone generalizing SWF. As someone who's played with serveral dozen people, there's no one way that SWF is. The comp players doing clock callouts are a tiny minority. The average SWF is regular people playing in a regular way, while talking—and still getting stomped. I escape probably slightly more matches as a solo than in a SWF, but I have more fun in SWF. It's not some all powerful force.
And as much as I'm against hard tunneling, and how I do agree some unwell people use this game to boost their fragile egos (I've met my fair share), you can't say everyone who's aggressive is a bully. You have no idea why they're acting the way they are. Carried over tilt? Losing all their other matches that day? Not even understanding there's a potential moral dilemma? Generalizing "tunnel = bully" just ain't it, just like generalizing "SWF = problematic" ain't it.
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i really wish forum posts could be pinned
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While you certainly have some points, I can't quite agree with you on many of them and find it none at all different from the own posts you're criticising. Which is valid, because I do think complains have a way of making wrong things turn better, but seems a bit hypocritical. Not saying that you have actively tried to be, we sometimes act in ways that somehow contradict what we do. But you're complaining about people complaining, after all. The irony. Not going to focus on that, though, and I could argue there's little point in arguing further, since you've made clear your opinion and I don't think I'm going to convince you otherwise. But, for the sake of debating, let's go. You are free to assume whatever you like, obviously, that's for you to decide but if you think it's ragebait (there's definitely rage in it, but I don't agree on the bait thing) I don't really understand why all the elaborated answer.
First things first, anyway, you're right in that there's no video recording proving my words, but I honestly can't be bothered to record and upload then share the videos. I've almost never recorded any videogame (I don't see the point unless you're a youtuber or streamer), never made an habit of it and thus I don't ever consider it. Nevertheless, I don't think what I'm stating is something unheard of or extremely unlikely. I have been playing for a week in the event queue and it was usually fine, but the last couple days have been worse and worse and today I got these matches. Make of it as you will.
About the SWFs thing, it's not about punishing people for playing with friends, it's about the inherent potential to get massive advantage in the 'wrong' hands. I do agree that it's not exactly fair taking that away from those who don't or can't abuse it, but that's why I said it's definitely not going to happen. But if not taking that ability away, we should try and find a solution to it.
· The efficiency of the meta should not dictate what playstyles are or not healthy, and if so, it should be changed so playing (not winning consistently) is attainable without the need to adopt these so called 'strategies'.
· I'm not sure I get your 'conditioning' argument, but yes, you have a point, players might be conditioned. I wasn't talking about the killer tunneling 2 gens done, though, they pretty much tunneled from the very first moment, which is why I criticise it.
· The game being intended as a sort of gamble, while true, does not excuse from my point of view the extreme tunneling and slugging, or any kind of abuse of a certain 'tactic' that makes another player eventually feel miserable.
· Again, if the game favours 'extremely impactful playstyles' (I don't exactly get what you're talking about - you mean tunneling I guess) maybe it should be changed. I don't think it needs to be that way.
· Mistakes are made, that's for certain. Obviously I take mistakes into account, and there are plenty, I'm not pretending otherwise. I make mistakes when playing as killer and survivor alike. Then again, making a mistake once shouldn't condemn your whole match.
· I get the feeling you think I'm asking for tunneling in a certain circumstance to be impossible. But resorting to it immediately as a basis and abusing it should not be possible and should be disincentivized. In the matches I've talked about, most of the times they started tunneling from the get-go, so no, players weren't hovering over zones the killer were trying to defend (in this scenario anyway).
· Again, the killer was putting pressure from the very first moment. Specially the Blights, and I don't get it. I suck as Blight, so hard. But these guys didn't. So if you're good as Blight, why the hell do you need to tunnel? Chances are you're going to win anyway.
· Having a bad day or reacting to previous matches is totally possible and understandable. Hell, I may even sympathize with them if so. But having 8 matches in a row (and 10 out of 12) repeating the same dynamic… Well, explain to me why I can't just dc and go next. Because I didn't, but cthulhu knows I wanted to in the last matches.
· Again, having their own vision on how to play the game seems fine. But when that vision includes actively making other people feel bad when you can play it otherwise seems shady to me. There are laws in society to prevent that for a reason. How is a game any different? Even more so, you're supposed to have fun, and yes, fun is subjective and there's always going to be someone who doesn't like something. I guess you could say it's cultural, and personal, but I personally find these behaviours unacceptable. And hence the topic.
· Is the game shifting towards a more competitive scene? Genuine question. If so, then maybe we should have a separate line for those of us who don't really want to pour hours and analyze mistakes just to get better and have a chance at playing the game (let alone winning a match).
Yes, I am trying to adapt the game to my comfort and convenience, but I think it's a reasonable and logical complain. I'm not saying 'you need to let me do gens before downing me' or 'you need to play using only one hand'. I'm asking for stablishing certain rules so that everyone can have a modicum of fun while reducing the amount of times people suffer instead. So I guess you're right in that I don't 'chin up and accept it as it is' but I don't think that's an acceptable behaviour anyway. Slavery was also once something accepted and it doesn't mean in any way it was good or right or that noone should have complained about it. When something is wrong, the right thing to do, from my point of view, is trying to make it right. So yeah, I guess it's a 'me first' mentality. So I will have a 'me first' mentality for once in my life for something I believe to be right.
And yeah, I know it happens pretty much in any other MP game. That's why I, as a general rule, do not play MP games. It just so happens that DBD is one of the only 3 MP games I play, and it is very bad actually (the other one being SMITE, but I quitted playing that game long time ago). Also, another solution could be to let us create a custom game versus bots and be able to customize their behaviour and difficulty. That way, when a player gets tired of being BMd, we could go and play some custom matches instead.
Letting aside the fact that you consider the description of my matches an exaggeration, which is fair since you have no proof, I can say that sure, sometimes I will get myself in a situation in which I'm tunneled. But most of the times, I don't. Also, if I'm watching someone being tunneled or BM'd, I will generally try to step in. And yes, if I'm being tunneled (which usually happens against killers who are better than you, because if that's not the case they can't tunnel you) it's due to a lack of skill. Which, again, if the killer finds themselves with 3 gens gone and few hooks, I understand the tunneling since I'm the weak link and they need to try and turn the tide. Again, the problem is being tunneled (or someone else being tunneled, or camped) first thing in the match. Yes, I do hope people will agree with me because I somehow always end up thinking the best of people, contrary to what life has taught me. And, if not, well. So be it. I left the forums once already. I don't need you to agree with me. I need people to be considerate, not the usual bad mannered trolls that plagues the internet.
And yes, I know people is complicated, but that doesn't mean I won't ever stop striving towards being better. Me, myself, and as a society. As impossible as it seems most of the times.0 -
Yep, I am aware and agree that most SWFs are not navy seals squads. Still, as I said in the previous post, it's about the potential ability to cause harm. And hence why I said 'it's what I'd like, but I know it's not going to happen'. I always play solo. The one friend I played this game with left it long ago after hooking me in (pun intended) and tbh I don't trust people enough to start playing with randos. And it's fine. I love the game and I love playing solo. Except when I get several matches back to back suffering cheap tactics just so they can get their satisfaction of 'another game won'.
And for those of you who are all about numbers, I probably escape like 20-25% of my matches and I am usually fine with it. As a killer, I usually get several games of 2-3 kills, followed by several of 0-1 kills, followed by some of 4k. And it's usually fine too (even though I find killer more stressful than survivor).0 -
I always play solo.
Yeah, I guessed that. The most anti-SWF players in this game are often solos. I can promise you it's not the land of milk and honey it's assumed to be. It's just having more fun while still being beat. There isn't really anything to distrust either. If I play with someone new and I don't like them, I just delete them after that session. Easy.
Except when I get several matches back to back suffering cheap tactics just so they can get their satisfaction of 'another game won'.
I get it. It's frustrating, and I'd like it changed too. I had more than one killer repeatedly slugging everyone yesterday without hooking anyone. I've been hard tunneled out by Blights 3 mins into a match. I think these things should lose power. But this sort of generalizing and assuming about bullying doesn't win people over to your side. I just got out of a match where someone accused me of targeting them because they had a Pride flag (which I never even noticed), when in reality I was on one of the worst maps for my killer, with a hex build that was immedialty cleansed, and everyone prerunning from me. He was just the easiest to catch when I became desperate. Yet he made a wildly offensive assumption and then blocked me, instead of simply starting a dialog.
I probably escape like 20-25% of my matches
...20%? That's a crazy number. Are you a newer player? Are you logged into the stat page? My 30-day as survivor is usually around 50% ER and I'm mid, at best.
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It's not about liking or not liking, it's just that I've become wary of everyone. Or tired. The amount of times I've found players, usually males, who go crazy the moment you make a mistake. Plenty of people complaining or trying to show you how to do things when most of the times they don't even know. And then there's the hatemail of course, but that's another thing entirely. I'm not free of blame either. I am an introvert guy, I'm usually quiet, I'm not used to communicate, to chitchat and I usually feel uncomfortable in those situations. I mean, I can't even play Monster Hunter with one of my friends much because he gets pretty intense and chatty about what he can do or what he think I can or can't do.
I guess you're right when you say generalizing and assuming is not good (not that I mind about people being or not on my side as much) and certainly it's not fair. But even when I am to blame for falling to generalization and false assumptions, I do think we should find a way to get rid of those playstyles. I don't think it's that far fetched to think that by adhering to some basic rules, most of the players would eventually feel, if not happier, less frustrated, angry and angsty, and therefore cases in which players make other players go through hell in retaliation of previous experiences would diminish. I'm no fool, I don't expect people to give up privileges and start looking out for other people all out of a sudden or globally. But if we don't strive to do better in every situation, then we will only spiral down. And the world is already a pretty unstable and unkind place to live in as it is.
As for the numbers. Maybe it's not 20-25% and more of a 30, but it sure is not 50%. No, I'm not entirely new (been playing since 2021, must have around 2000 hours in) but my matches tend to vary a lot and I often face opponents much better than I am. But it's fine, I don't mind not escaping as long as I feel that what I did mattered or had fun doing something. I am definitely not a good survivor player, and I also don't usually care for stats, but I might to try and learn the accurate number for didactic purposes. May be my escape rate is way higher than I expect.
Edit: 36% escape rate. Much higher than I thought.1 -
perks like self preservation and fast track harm you if you spread hooks . These perk changes last patch sre wild design choices .
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Yes, you may be right. But it's all a negative feedback, I guess. I don't know where it started, but the thing is: killer players use tunnel to cope with survivors using meta perks, and survivors use meta perks to cope with killers tunneling. It should be simpler to balance everything if there wasn't an obsession with winning. But that is something that's not even possible to change.
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Can't say I've ever had that happen. No one is gonna tell me how to play. I won't even get on comms with anyone until I've felt them out. I'm not hopping on a mic with some random stranger, nor would I expect anyone else to.
If you want things to change, you should want people on your side. These big, broad complaints are daily here and it's pretty tiring. Nuance and understanding will get you further than generalizing. If you say "everyone who tunnels is a bully" ans you have killers here who tunnel, you just called them bullies, and they won't listen to anything you have to say at that point.
Even though I brought it up, if you don't have the stat page, I personally wouldn't recommend it. I didn't think I cared about numbers either and then I did. It's also inaccurate for survivors if you use the abandon option, because all abandons are just removed form the players history and not counted even though they're all deaths. Killer stats are fine, until they finally get this abandon option they keep whining for.
But if we don't strive to do better in every situation, then we will only spiral down.
There are plenty of people already self-policing. Every single day I give people hatch because they got a raw deal. Everyone I bother to speak with has a similar mentality. You can't remove tunneling or bully squads from the game. It would need to be a different game entirely. Deincentivizating should absolutely happen though, but it would come in the form of killers being buffed beyond measure, because these chronic complainers on the other side will settle for nothing less.
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Furitive chase/Friends til the end I love for going for new targets over and over, zooming with stealth and haste is so nice.
4king without doing the usual is possible, I just don't win EVERY game coz that's not what I aim to do lol
and usually I let people go anyways when I get the 3k, so I guess I don't count, I've been really enjoying Trickster and I'm super excited to return to Unknown with the buffs3 -
Just use perks against it, when you see it that much…
Killer is expected to bring slowdowns perks, but survivors still can't be bothered to use anti-tunneling perks.I personally don't care, if I get tunneled, mainly because it's rare. So I just use Babysitter to help my teammates in most of my builds...
You see slugging often? Use WGLF/Unbreakable
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I think using perks against it is not gonna change the outcome. That usually helps if there is not much difference in skill between killer and survivor. I don't usually bother using slowdown perks with killer anyway, I rather use other ones which are more fun to play. I'm not worried about using meta because I don't really feel like I need to win all my matches (even though I'll try to, but I'm quite comfortable having matches in which I lose as long as they're interesting).
I'm not saying I'm tunneled every other game. I've been playing DbD for half a month since I came back to it and my matches were going smooth overall up till yesterday, which was what made me create the topic. Also, I'm not the one being tunneled in all those matches. It was either me or some other teammate. And the first ones I got angry when some of my teammates dc'd or gave up first hook, but after 5-6 matches going through the same I sympathized with them.
And slugging happened only actually in two matches, one against Nurse and the other against Oni. Still, my point remains that those are unhealthy playstyles that should be balanced around, not just patched with some perks. And yes, I include genrush too.I think you are right in many points, I just gave up hope long ago on people, so I guess what I try is for someone up there to realize there are some valid points in my critics and do something about it. But yeah, I guess it's just wishful thinking. Like, through the years most of the comments I've read on these forums are the same: killers not acknowledging when they're not right and survivors behaving the same ways. And most of the time, not offering reasonings and being rude about it too. It seems like not so many people is able or tries to (my money is on they can't be bothered to try) empathize with the other side or even consider their point of view.
I realize the irony since some of you think that's what I'm doing here, but it's not that I feel people would listen any other way. And again I'm generalizing, so that proves your point. Not trying to say I'm a victim, but I do feel like that's the kind of attitudes I find the most by a long margin.
Just a final question - a genuine question. Why do you feel killers would be buffed so hard if they disincentivize this playstyles? People will complain first when you change something, sure. But change after change I think they could find a healthy balance without buffing killers that much. But that should come in hand with this MMR rework we are so desperately in need of. That's what I think anyway.-1 -
Oh make no mistake, I sure don't have hope in people. I can only do my best to not be a dick in a video game. I don't really expect any consideration in return. The problem is that there are sides at all. Most of the more reasonable people I interact with play both sides.
Why do you feel killers would be buffed so hard if they disincentivize this playstyles?
Because the most biased killer mains are the loudest people in this community. It's also what most of the popular content players favor. It's the role that sells the game. They will kick and scream just like they did with the last effort to mitigate cheese. That ptb lasted, what, 3 days? Nothing will happen without them getting massive compensation.
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The cogs in your head sure aren't turning. If biased killer mains got what they wanted, 2/3s of the roster wouldn't be hot garbage, Blight and Nurse wouldn't have been nerfed, these killer "buffs" wouldn't be a joke, and SWF would have gotten nerfed years ago. It's astounding that after 9.2.0 showed BHVR's true intentions with the game that you still SOMEHOW think they care at all about killers, nevermind that you actually think they favor them over survivors. You're either staggeringly oblivious at best, or disgustingly malicious at worst.
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The Blight nerf is supported by noteworthy Blight mains. Just about everyone else supports it too, including killer mains. The Nurse nerf is just an add-on. If you can't handle S tiers getting knocked down slightly, maybe the issue is you.
You say 9.2.0 showed their true intentions? And what happened to all those proposed changes? They did indeed attempt to address years of pain points for survivors. It lasted, what was it, three days of ptb? Referencing the patch they completely nuked after killer CCs went wild as a good example of pro-survivor bias is certainly a choice.
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I won't dare to say that devs might favour one side over the other, but the fact remains that Blight and Nurse are two potentially extremely lethal killers that needed to be adressed, and doing so was actually healthy for the game. They just need to achieve balance without destroying what the killer was known for, and they're still the same.
Also, don't need to be rude to other people, specially when they're being nice and giving plenty of reason for their opinions.0
