The Hidden Problem With The End Game Collapse
Video Version for those who don't like reading: https://youtu.be/ar4sHUsUTpM
So patch 2.7 is finally here and with it the end game collapse. Whether the devs will openly admit it or not. the end game collapse as it is was something created to deal with a few fringe issues of late game Dead by daylight.
Part1 Why Is The EGC a Thing
Whether the devs will openly admit it or not. then game collapse as it is was something created to deal with a few fringe issues of late game Dead by daylight.
One of the most egregious examples of this was a particular stalemate between a large streamer known as admiral bahroo and a random stream sniper. Who essentially refused to leave the game and continue to keep bahroo trapped based on an infinite that existed at the time. bahroo went as far as to play other games on stream while waiting for the player to leave. After staying in the game for 3 hours the player was finally caught after making a mistake and was banned by one of the developers of the game for his actions. This event occurred in the game well over two years ago however ever since the devs have been trying to come up with a way to prevent this from happening. Hence the birth of the end-game collapse.
These particular stalemates became far more common on the ptb where the devs first tested Killers having the ability to close the hatch to counter the hatch standoff issue. Where survivors would essentially stall out the game infinitely due to them having few options of actual escape.
part 2 The HIDDEN PROBLEM
This now brings us to the problem with this new end game collapse. The the developers first implemented a counter to the hatch standoff with the killer being able to close the hatch about player test build over a year ago. However in the first iteration of this the major feedback from survivors was it a one-v-one scenario it was nearly impossible to finish a single generator against the patrolling killer to reopen the hatch. After which the developers implemented a change that made it to where when the killer close the hatch both exit gates powered and the survivor could choose to use the exit gates to leave. However, due to the randomness behind how the doors at spawn, it was not uncommon for the survivor to not be able to open a door either before the killer would be able to find and catch them.
So in response to this players would simply choose to do nothing away from the doors and wait for the killers to essentially give up so they would be able to escape rather than risk the impossible task of opening a door on her right in front of the killer in a one-v-one situation.
The hidden problem with the I'm game collapse is that even though the developers created it to prevent survivors from stalling out the game indefinitely, they did not address the reason why players would do so.
Part 3 Examples
Currently in the game there are multiple maps that have strategic high points, that allow Killers to watch both exit planes almost simultaneously. Meaning that if they managed to close the hatch a survivor has no possible chance to be able to open a door before the killer would reach them. This is not accounting for perks such as whispers, or spies from the shadows, among others that already greatly assist with Killers being ever to pinpoint a survivors location.
Killers already have a huge advantage in a one-v-one scenario, which to an extent they should do to the nature that it is a 4v1 game
However this particular Situation The advanage, is so absurdly high that are Robs both players, of any satisfaction or skilled play options.
Essentially what happened to these games is the survivor has two options they can either try for a door, which the only way they would have get it is it the killer simply doesn't pay attention or doesn't care or wait the two minutes to die.
The killers in a situation are given the best scenario of stand, wait and watch both doors or wait 2 minutes for the player to die. Neither have the opportunity to be rewarded for some sort of skilled play or decision. Whether or not a player lives or dies is based entirely on the roll of the dice or the RNG of the map
I know that One versus One situations seems rare however they are far more common at Higher-Ranks,This issue is exacerbated by the fact that the killers that perform best in these scenarios are also more commonly used at These ranks like the nurse or the hillbilly.
Part 4 suggested solutions.
I don't think the in-game collapse is terrible however I feel like some balance changes would need to be made immediately to help keep these end game situations within the fair play.
The first thing I would change is the exit gate timers. Currently it takes 15 seconds to open an exit gate after they are powering without any additional adjustment such as perks. I think that in one v one scenarios this time should be reduced.
A lazy man's way of handling this would be to simply cut the time in half, if in a one-v-one scenario.
Another more interesting option however would be the reduce the timer based on a percentage on how much time was left in the endgame collapse .
They could simply put it to go down a percentage inversely with the End Game timer.
Or they could just have a flat amount of time removed based on every end game reminder during the end game collapse.
for example if you try opening the door within the first 30 seconds of the collapse it would take 15 seconds however if you tried opening the door during the second 30 seconds of the EGC it would take 11 to 12 seconds, if you try to open the door at during the second half of the engine collapse it would take 8 to 9 seconds and if you tried opening the door within the last 30 seconds of the end-game collapse it would only take five to six seconds.
This change would award the survivor for being able to elude the Killer during the end game collapse and would make the door times closer to something that is reasonable for a survivor in a 1v1 scenario.
Inversely this would also incentivize the killer to make an attempt to search out and find the survivor as opposed to simply just watching their escape routes. due to the fact that the longer it takes them to find the survivor the easier it is for the survivor to escape. this to also becomes a risk reward for them because yes they could simply watch the door is to ensure that they see them as soon as they try to escape. But the longer they wait again the easier it would be for the survivor to make said escape.
another thing that I would like to entertain the idea of is having the Hatch re-open on a timer. This can be done at any end game markers however I feel like the healthiest ways for this to be done, would be one of these three scenarios. One at every end game update, meaning every 30 seconds, 2 halfway between the end of the end game collapse meaning one minute after the endgame collapses has begun, or three during the last 30 seconds or basically the final endgame collapse reminder.
My reason for this is during the entire game the killer is responsible for always patrolling are protecting at least three objectives. even when survivors are working on the last generator there are always three options for the killer to have to protect. I feel like by giving Killers a simple either or makes it too easy for a killer to simply be able to lock down both objectives. Having that Hatch as a third option at some point would increase the killers patrol radius thus making it more likely and possible for a survivor to be able to slip in the cracks. And again this is a risk-reward, the killer knows exactly knows exactly where the hatch is if he’s started endgame, if the hatch opens they can simply re close it before the survivor jumps in it. however this means the killer would have to mitigate time to choose to be at the hatch as opposed to being at either was the doors. Giving the survivor a much-needed window to actually open the doors. now the killer can forgo this option simply leave the hatch for the last 30 seconds and assume the survivor will more than likely make a play for the doors. this makes the game more a game of rock-paper-scissors as opposed to a simple coin flip as to whether or not the killer finds the survivor.
There have been talks about other options for the survivors well like for example having a dull key spawn in any chest even open chest at the start of the endgame collapse so the survivor has the option to find a key to reopen the hatch. I don't hate this idea but I feel as if it makes it a little less consistent I am would also give the killer a lot more things they would have to protect, to the point of being the killer would have to protect both doors the hatch and essential 3 chest versus one player. And from the survivor side, they would have to, search 3 chest and find the hatch in 2 minutes , anyone whos ran plunder’s Instinct can tell you how unrealistic that is
TLDR in closing.
I understand the need for the endgame collapse. One they needed to do something to shake up the game and two end game has been an issue since this game came out.
And although this is clearly not a rush to fix, because of the lack of ulterior balance updates it feels like a rush fix. There's a lot of new pretty colors that come with endgame collapse but realistically it doesn't change anything from when ptb hatch closing a year ago.
Whether it's reducing the time to open the door, creating situations where the hatch will reopen periodically, or some combination of the two. Something should be done to rebalance this one-on-one situation.
I mainly speak for this because as a high-ranked player this is something I deal with more often than not. And I feel as if this issue is not addressed promptly it will just become another, thing that exacerbates other issues with the game such as Deranking, smurfing and player retention.
Comments
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The only thing that needs to be adjusted for EGC is a min/max for gate distance. Beyond that, EGC is perfectly fine in its current version. Surviving should be hard in a 1v1 situation, but not impossible. Even with gates as they are right now, it is not impossible to escape, as I have done so many times.
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"Whether the devs will openly admit it or not. then game collapse as it is was something created to deal with a few fringe issues of late game Dead by daylight."
Starts off pretending to know why the developers did something, essentially calls them liars for not corroborating his story, and pretends it was "a few fringe issues of late game", as opposed to the reality that those issues happened nearly every single trial.
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i disagree wheater or not you live or die in a 1v1 is completely luck, if the doors spawn on one side you are screwd no ifs and or buts... also what if the killer has whispers youll never get a door open
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I like your video. You did a very good job at collecting and organizing your ideas together in way that made sense. However, I think that most of your ideas would cause more issues than we currently have now.
If a survivor will have an easier time opening the gates at later stages of the collapse, survivors will just wait around a gate until 30 seconds are left. This would cause 1.5 minutes of idle time where the survivor is just waiting for the easy escape instead of trying to escape. It would be a better idea to just give survivors a 20% opening speed boost during the end game collapse. I'm not sure if that is a *good* idea, but at least it wouldn't extend the game for 90 seconds.
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It wasn't so much because of a "few fringe issues", it was a fairly common complaint. If you go back a couple months and took a look at the forums, you could hardly get through a single day without seeing at least one post about hatch standoffs. Any time the killer managed to kill three survivors before the gates were powered, you had a pretty good chance that it would turn into a standoff. It wasn't really a fun situation for either side and the only way to win was to not play it. It might not seem so common looking back but it was by far one of the most frequent complaints we received.
With that in mind, it's not final. We can always tweak it and make balance changes as it is necessary. Whoever makes it to the hatch first is going to have a huge advantage, and if the survivor does not make it their first, they're going to have a rough time escaping.
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the idea of making it better as time goes on would be to incentivze, the killer into searching for him, and not just waiting at the doors, right now 15 seconds is way to long and if you are in chase its impossible it means just wait to die
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1v1 is not completely luck, though I will admit some luck is required. I have survived with doors spawning on the same side. I have survived when the killer has whispers. I survived against Billys and Nurses. It can be done, it takes a little skill, a little stealth and a little luck.
I have been hooked more than I have survived, as I should. The 1v1 EGC survival rate should be less than 25%, no matter the rank. The killer should have a huge advantage in those situations. Survivors have enough chances before they get to the 1v1 EGC situation. The escape in EGC should be a frantic intense do or die situation. The fact that more survivors do not try to says more about them than the gameplay. They give up instead trying the "impossible." Every once in a while, a miracle happens.
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I know that Hatch Standoffs were common, what i mean by that is the collapse itself wasnt just a hatch standoff fix, the hatch closing you guys had ready a year ago, My point there was the other things the end game collapse did like forcing players out, instead of letting them run around and troll a Killer those were the "Fringe issues" i was referring to. believe me as the "streamer who did the 2 1/2 hour" hatch stand off with devs in my stream i know how often they occur.
the point of this post is the Killer already has a HUGE advantage when it comes to the hatch, They move faster, they patrol the map more so they are more likely to see it, and they don't have to worry about getting hurt while finding it. these were more just ideas to help balance the situation to something for feasible for players
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you dont though 25% makes no sense if the game is balanced around 2 living 2 dying, and you saying stealth , you cant stealth whispers, if there are using it right they won't leave that door for 15 secs there is no skill in watch both doors from a hill, these are skill or stealth this is basically win or lose is based on RNG how the map generated which has nothing to do with skill
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By the time you get to a 1v1 situation, the power has shifted to the killer, as it should. As the game starts to dwindle survivors, the balance should shift to the killer. By the time it is 1v1, all the power should be completely on the killer's side. I am not sure why this is such a hard concept. The killer should have a much higher success rate in 1v1.
Again, the gate distances need to be addressed, I agree there. Beyond that, there is no issue with the current EGC in the 1v1 situation. The killer should be the power role. The killer should be able to dictate how the pace of EGC goes. The killer should be in control. Its the killer's match to lose at that point, as it should be in this particular situation.
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he moves faster, has probably already seen the hatch, and doesn't have to move the map in fear.. he doesnt lose power in the situation. if the survivor is found he is already dead, thats legit game over. these changes are to give him a win state barring hes able to avoid that game over
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@xxshinobazuxx At this point, we are best at agreeing to disagree.
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Overall I disagree with you.
You seem to be basing your argument around the fact that 2-3 killers are very strong at door patrolling and those same killers also have the option to sit somewhere they can view both doors; because they have high movement, they can get to either door easily.
In your post and video you do state your opinions are based on red rank play where these killers are more popular.... but requesting balancing of an entire system just because a few killers have a larger advantage in a scenario where they should rightfully have the advantage.... just makes no sense to me.
Also it seems most of your argument/complaints are stemming from the fact that hatch can be closed. You say survivors would intentionally draw games out when the hatch closing was initially tested because they knew it would be very hard to win.
So with that said:
Hatch closing does bring back what happened when it was initially tested. It is HARD for the survivor to win, and it should be. In a 1v1 scenario of a 4v1 game the chance of survival should be very low, and it should cause high tension for the sole survivor to use their skills to escape. Yes some killers clearly have an advantage in this scenario just because of their kit. Killers can also use Whispers to help find the last survivor (imagine a perk being used for what it is for?).
So you are in high ranks and see these same killers all the time? Never escape in 1v1 EGC? Well they are playing the killers that have the kit to win very reliably. If you want to have an advantage...... play something that gives you that advantage.
Want an easier time escaping during 1v1 EGC? Bring a key.
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Points to never forgot:
- By playing this game, you must accept the factor of randomness and the unknown
- Hatch spawns are random
- First in, first served - sometimes the survivor is there first and sometimes it is the killer
- A survivor can play with friends to increase their chance of escape
- A survivor can bring a key
- A survivor can bring a map and use it to find the hatch
- Perks such as Spine Chill, Wake Up and Resilience increase door opening for the survivor
- Yes, a killer sometimes runs Whispers or BBQ or Spies from the Shadows and can find you with those at the end - if you are in one of those games, then that is just how that game played out so move on
- A Survivor can ignore the hatch and outright camp a switch and open it straight after the killer closes the hatch
- Sometimes, the killer is bad an all 4 survivors escape
- Sometimes, the killer is good and outplays everyone and kills everyone - including the last survivor in the EGC
- You can burn a map offering to play on a map that you are good at to increase your chances
And so on, and blah blah blah. There are so many possibilities. The randomness is also what makes the game fun. Do you understand @xxshinobazuxx ?
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You were given an opportunity to escape with no generators done which wasn't even possible pre-PGC, isn't that enough?
Only thing that needs to change is door minimal distance - that's it.
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This guy has no idea about the real problems from back thrn
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Im loving egc. The randomized gates and hatch only add to the unknown and unenforceable. Some might complain cause gates can be close and in killer favor, but the reverse is true as well. When the gates are a full split across the map its nearly impossible for them to stop survivors. Accept that some things are random and overcome the challenge for a more rewarding victory.
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The problem is the devs are listening to the forums to begin with. A minute percentage of the player base posts here, and most who do are cry babies to begin with.
The OP brings up good points. Add in that I place traps at each door and you are adding in more time to escape. I've had 7 games go to egc this week and none have escaped. Since egc started, I've won every one on one without much effort.
It feels pretty empty
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TLDR please.
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I'd say it was fringe, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease as the saying goes. In the well over a year I've been playing I've only witnessed a hostage situation a few times.
Once while spectating I watched a Kate hold it hostage for about 15 minutes, which as one of the other survivors I reported.
The other was a wraith blocking the stairs for over 10 minutes keeping three survivors hostage, I was the fourth who avoided that, but they only stopped trapping the other survivors when the twitch streamer disconnected. In after game chat the killer said that was their intention.
The third was when I was playing huntress on swamp and an immersed Claudette and Meg were both keeping so well hidden I could not find either one for a good 30+ minutes - which is something EGC would not have prevented anyway since there were two survivors doing it.
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A big problem about this is in my opinion is one big balance problem that it feels like no one thinks of. All maps should be the exact same size. This would allow them to balance things better based on things that they know to be true. If for example every map was x by x, the doors would always be able to be x meters apart, allowing somewhat of a realistic chance of escape if you were the only one who managed to evade the killer's grasp up to that point. If all maps had X number of pallets, X number of windows, X distance doors, then things would be a lot easier to balance rather than just throwing your hands up in the air when someone gets something unfavorable to them and saying "oh well".
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I told someone this in another thread proposing changes to the egc when they said this exact same thing.
You are expected to build a working knowledge of what is happening with the game map while playing in the game. You have to build spatial and map awareness just to survive in this game. You should know where the hatch is when you know it is going to become something you need to make use of. The killer can't use anything other than their eyes and ears to find the hatch. As a survivor you have items and addons that allow you to track the hatch from the moment it spawns, not opens, spawns. So you have many more tools to help you with map awareness. The issue is survivors suddenly don't want to use them. Same with keys. If the hatch is closed you need to open it with a key. They drop so much now people are complaining about the rate at which they find keys mid trial. At some point you can't keep laying bad outcomes at the feet of killers or the devs when you've had the tools and the same amount of time to find it.
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What an absolutely gigantic wall of text just to say you don't like that the last survivor has poor chances of surviving if the hatch is closed.
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There's some definite issues with this.
First, the hatch is already a second chance for your team failing. It's meant to be the 1v1 point where either you get out or you get killed. The killer shutting it is basically them having done everything they can to have a perfect match.
BEYOND THAT opening an exit gate is pretty much a formality, you don't just have to give up and die as you have a goal. THIS IS YOUR SECOND-SECOND CHANCE. It shouldn't ever be a favourable chance that once you've failed as a team AND as the final survivor, you still have a huge shot to get out. The gates don't need to open faster, they SHOULD be hard to do at that point. Even then you can plan for that and bring Wake Up, or even a key. Wake Up is not considered a top tier perk because its effect was rarely of any value, now there is a very real chance of a situation where it can be very impactful, so people need to stop this mentality of "anything that isn't a free hit is a garbage perk" and experiment with perks they've avoided that are the solutions to issues they're having.
Lowering the time the exit gates take to open once the hatch has already been shut has huge issues, it basically turns both gates into 2 of the old hatches. The killer can get to one, but then has to either guard it or go to the other, but the survivor reaches either and it's a free escape, they'd almost NEVER die in that situation.
TLDR: The exit gates AFTER a hatch has been shut should never feel like an easy thing to do, you and your team have failed to complete objectives, and you have failed to reach the hatch, you should not be coddled with a new mechanic for a third option of an easy escape.
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Very detailed and very wrong. The correct counter to EGC: make sure at least two of you are still alive by that time. Failing that, well, your chances of survival are low. As they should be.
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@lasombra1979 This. Implement a min/max gate distance and that's it.
At some point the survivor has lost the match and the game is over. There can't always be another 2nd chance to survive.
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EGC is fine as it is, you have still a chance to escape but it's hard if you didn't completed the main objective before. It's similar to getting kills if all survivors are still alive after the gates are open, possible but unlike to happen when you passed a certain rank.
They won't change anything about it anytime soon, the old mechanic was in the game for more then two years before it got changed
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A survivor asking for a fair EGC, and 17 killers saying no. Sadly is the usual in the forum
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What's unfair about a 1v1 in an asymmetrical game being in the power role's favor?
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Yes, it's an asymmetrical game, but in this game you have to kill 4 survivors, not 3 survivors and have 99% chance of killing the 4th in 1v1 EGC.
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Please answer the question. What's unfair about a 1v1 in an asymmetrical game being in the power role's favor?
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Well, they can change the game so if you hook 1 survivor, all of them became hooked. Is an asymmetrical game so is fair too
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end game is fine how it now. you can also always run wake up to make it easier. survivors always have a choice and counter.
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It's only 3 sec lesser with wake up. Nobody uses this perk. And I agree, End Game is fine now ... for killers
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Here's another simpler option: if the hatch has been closed by the killer, the survivor can open the hatch, but it is like repairing a generator, he must tug and pull at it for say 15 seconds, same as opening a gate, before it bursts back open. And Killer can kick it shut like breaking a gen to reduce the progress.
This way it becomes similar to the tertiary last gen patrol standoff of the normal endgame where there are three exit points, and provides more options for actual skilled play and counterplay between survivor and killer in the final stage.
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Why aren't you answering the question?
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It's balanced around 2 living 2 dying, but EGC hatch battles aren't that scenario, they are for those cases where the killer got the upper hand and pushed the game to his favor killing 3.
In this case I do believe killer should have an advantage over the survivor. But the advantage shouldn't be 99% to 1%, the survivor should still have a reasonable chance of surviving, 25% sounds about right.
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I suggested the same days ago, and imagine the responses
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Don't know to answer you if you don't understand what I said previously (bad english, I know).
" What's unfair about a 1v1 in an asymmetrical game being in the power role's favor?"
Well, do you think if killer make 4k every game is fair? Yes, I know you want to make 4k and if you can you want our houses and possessions, but this is a game and all of us want to have fun.
Not going to answer you more in this post, it's impossible we agree
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We're talking about a 1v1 situation in a game that's supposedly balanced around a 4v1. Your bad attempts at dodging the issue only make your argument weaker.
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4 seconds is enough to make survivors question just how useful healing is, so surely 3 seconds must make a big difference.
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Well stated @xxshinobazuxx .
Not only is the Hatch piece in the EGC unbalanced, but it is also unfun in it's current iteration.
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I agree. Unfun for both parties, IMO. Although certainly a step in the right direction....
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@prayer_survivor Orion is right though: you're not presenting arguments, just venting frustration. Yes, 1v1 is very difficult for the survivor, and easier for the killer. But it's only ONE part of the game. "Balance" doesn't mean all parties should have a guaranteed 50% chance of winning at any time.
Think about it this way: you don't see any of us killer mains complaining about how difficult it is when all generators are repaired, and all four survivors are still alive.
Why? Well, we already had our chances, and failed, either because we didn't play well enough, didn't play seriously, maybe survivors were great or by pure luck. Doesn't matter. At the beginning of a match, we all have a fair chance to win. As the game progresses, depending on how it goes, one side starts to gain advantage over the other.
Also, I don't see you mentioning how now you can escape even if zero generators are done. Fair? No. Luck based? Yes. Is it wrong? Hell no.
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"Also, I don't see you mentioning how now you can escape even if zero generators are done"
I don't like this change too. I prefer the previous version when you need 3 gens done.
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Killing legion is an every day topic too and will be for the next 2 years until you actually make him playable again lol.
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Killing legion is an every day topic too and will be for the next 2 years until you actually make him playable again lol.
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Actually, I primarily been playing survivor since EGC. I have found it more exciting since it started. So while I am not a survivor main, I am certainly not a killer main. So make that 16 killers and 1 sorta survivor.
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If your the last survivor in EGC and that hatch has slammed shut you have 3 options:
(Disclaimer: Don't be that guy and use option 4.)
- Try and open the door.
- Pray you can find/have a key and reopen the hatch.
- Wait for the Entitdaddy to take you for cupcakes.
- Be a Rage baby and DC
You have had the entire game an god only knows how many second chance perks to make it to the end game. You have 0 weapons and are being chased by someone who has weapons and wants to kill you. You can either stealth it or try and out play them but in 1 v 1 its not meant to be a cakewalk or a free escape. The best fix and one you didn't list in your video is they take the killers movement speed into account and set up a system where the gates spawn a certain distance from one another depending on that movement speed. (Except Nurse she gets gates 900000 miles from each other...)
You need to look at it from both points of view as a killer and a survivor player. Just looking at it from one side leaves you biased and lets a video like you made where you just offer nothing but free escapes. Now I will say this if you want the weaker timer the closer it gets to EGC ending you should also add crows alerting the killer to the players for each quarter of the timer (AKA every 30 seconds) that the survivor is hiding as that is all they will do is hide till its basically free. That is how you would make something like what you suggested balanced for both sides and that is what you should be looking at as it makes it a challenge and yet gives both sides a fair chance.
PS. As I said on your video I dislike killers who Slug in the EGC and personally refuse to do it myself if I catch you, your going on a hook. But honestly just a small boost to the killers late game sacrifice points would encourage more people to just end the game rather than wait for the entity to do it for them. Survivors are encouraged to try and save with 2000 points. Lets make it worth it for the killer to want the death on the hook.
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It was NEVER supposed to be a fair chance for the last remaining survivor to make it out through the hatch. If the killer killed 3 people, it was always supposed to be a killer favored scenario, there just wasn't the knowledge of what would happen when they added the hatch option from the beginning.
The original intention of the hatch was for it to be a last hope option that occassionally allowed you to get out. However, they didn't think hatch standoffs would be a thing. They accidently made it to where being the last survivor was in complete advantage of the survivor which is the exact opposite of what they were going for. And now survivors have gotten so spoiled and entitled that they can't accept it being in advantage of the killer which was the original intention.
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