EGC idea - False Hatch
The End Game Collapse is a welcome edition to the game IMO as it fixes a lot of hostage/standoff issues, particularly with the hatch.
HOWEVER, I personally feel that EGC favors killers way too heavily. If killer closes the hatch, the last guy is basically dead unless the exit gates are far apart, and even then against a killer with high mobility it doesn't matter. I main Spirit, and since reset I have had at most 2 people escape from me after I closed the hatch. As survivor, I have only escape through the gate after killer closed the hatch about 3 times. It's pretty much guaranteed that the killer will get you in EGC after they close the hatch. And since killer can roam the map faster, they are in a bigger advantage to find the hatch first. In fact, as Spirit I often will slug with 2 survivors left, find the hatch, then take the hook and rush to hatch to close it. There is nothing the survivor can do outside of having a key or just getting lucky.
So what if there were 2 hatches that spawned? BUT there is a catch. One hatch is FAKE and does not actually open, instead despawning when the REAL hatch opens (or maybe blocked by the Entity). This would mean that killer would need to find BOTH hatches before killing the third survivor, and then pick which one they think will be the real hatch. Survivors are put in this situation too, as they can also pick the wrong hatch. Maybe even both players pick the same hatch which could lead to some interesting encounters depending if it's real or fake.
The idea here is to simply increase the luck a bit for the last survivor to make EGC a bit more fair without destroying the positive impact EGC has on the game. Killer would still have the advantage, as they would still be able to close the hatch and trigger EGC like is currently, but it's not so guaranteed that they can just always get the last guy if they found hatch.
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I think it would create unnecessary animosity. As either side, I would be greatly annoyed if I found a "fake" hatch. I don't really see any upside to this either. If the killer does like you say and slugs the second to last survivor and finds the hatch then hooks the survivor and immediately closes the hatch then that is just smart play that deserves to be rewarded.
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But it's so guaranteed is the thing. Like if fake hatch was a thing, then killers might want to consider other options if they want to avoid being at the wrong hatch. OR maybe position themselves so they can go to either hatch quickly. Or maybe make an effort to find the last guy before killing the third guy, at least to know he isn't by either hatch. That sort of thing.
Like if you found the fake hatch as survivor, it's pretty much as it is now. The only difference is that, where before you had 0 chance to escape if killer knew where hatch was, now it's 50/50 and you could just luck out. As killer it might be lame to pick the wrong hatch but again you have control over the situation. If both hatches are in bad spots and you have nothing to find the last guy, you might want to avoid letting hatch open. Alternatively, if you hook the third guy and say see the last guy with BBQ you can focus on going for them instead of the hatch, because that's more efficient way to get the kill. It's not just given to you for making the obvious checkmate move. Like as Spirit, you literally cannot escape if I close the hatch. The only reason dudes escaped from me after I closed hatch was because I messed up, not because they did anything particularly skillful. Had I not made mistakes, it would have 100% been death for them. It's like, what even is the point of letting survivors open the gates if at the end of the day killer will get you anyway?
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I'm confused as to how this gives Survivors a better chance when both Killer and Survivor have the same opportunity to find the wrong Hatch first just as how they have the same opportunity to find the right Hatch first.
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Because their chance to take hatch goes from 0 to 50/50. This assumes that the hatch(es) have spawned and players are aware of their position. If it's a situation where no gens were done then it would be the same as before as only the real hatch would spawn anyway.
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I'm against this. It seems like an unnecessary killer nerf.
EGC hatch is supposed. To be stacked against survivors. It's fine.
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Is their chance to take the Hatch normally 0, though?
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I think, when the killer had a bad match, and 4 survivors are about to escape, the game should spawn fake gates. Which open just normal, but behind them, there's just a brick wall.
Survivors have a 50/50 chance.
Since we are rewarding failure...
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It is when the hatch has spawned for long enough that killer knows where it is. Like I said, against my Spirit exactly 0 people have taken hatch (both in situations where it had spawned and I knew where it was and it did not spawn and I just happened across it first, but the focus here is on the former not the latter), and only 2 made it through the gate after I closed hatch, and only because I messed up not because they outplayed me. This is from about 20-25 games, where these 2 were 50% of the total survivors that had escaped me legit (the other 2 were in a bad game I had where the survivors actually made it to gates). Literally almost every time I close hatch, I catch the last survivor on the gate and they have no option because as Spirit I can patrol both gates easily unless they are clear across the map on the largest maps in the game.
PS. By legit I mean they did it on their own. I gave a few free escapes but I had the guys dead to rights.
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Its not though, because if survivors didn't do enough gens to spawn hatch early then fake hatch wouldn't even spawn in the first place. It's the exact same as it is now. They aren't being rewarded for failure.
The difference is in those games where survivors do enough gens to spawn hatch. That means they did the objective enough to be given a fair chance to get it.
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I don't think this is necessary. Killers and survivors have the same % of chance of finding the hatch.
The hatch is already an *extra* option of escaping, even when survivors fail to do any, partially, or all their 5 objectives.
And if the killer closes it, the survivor still has 2 more chances of escaping. It won't be easy, though. But the exit gates spawn right from the beginning of the match and the survivor can spot them beforehand. Besides, it wasn't easy for the killer to lead into this scenario either.
And from personal experience: As a killer I very rarely spot the hatch before it comes into play, so looking for it becomes a race vs the remaining survivor, and I've seen plenty of them escaping. And dying.
And playing as a survivor, I've died mostly before, and seldom after it spawns, and I've escaped both from jumping into the hatch or opening the gate, the same. It's fine IMO.
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This
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@Condorloco_26 "And if the killer closes it, the survivor still has 2 more chances of escaping. It won't be easy, though. But the exit gates spawn right from the beginning of the match and the survivor can spot them beforehand. Besides, it wasn't easy for the killer to lead into this scenario either."
"Won't be easy" no it won't, it will be near impossible. Literally no one would have been able to escape from me after I closed the hatch if I played perfectly. It's just not possible. And the times I escaped myself were times when the killer made a mistake. Escaping shouldn't be based entirely on whether or not that killer makes a mistake, because as survivor you are just screwed in this situation.
"And from personal experience: As a killer I very rarely spot the hatch before it comes into play, so looking for it becomes a race vs the remaining survivor, and I've seen plenty of them escaping. And dying."
Then you are a fool. Once I get down to 2 survivors and the hatch has spawned (remember this is the important part), I will slug one and go looking for the hatch. Once I find it, I come back and take the hook. Sometimes the survivor is revived before I come back, which then I just play out the game until I down one again and take the hook, then rush to hatch. It is IMPOSSIBLE to take hatch if killer does this, and near IMPOSSIBLE to escape through the doors after the killer closes hatch using any sort of skill.
Having a fake hatch would make killers more carefully consider killing the third survivor, and/or give survivors a more fair chance to actually hatch.
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In other words, if killer closes the hatch is should be a guaranteed 4k? Because that's what it sounds like you are saying.
No mechanics should be guaranteed in this game, for either side.
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I feel like the problem you're trying to solve with your idea can be easily fixed by adding a maximum/minimum spawning proximity to the exit gates. Yes, high mobility killers can take advantage of the exits, but it's better than nothing tbh.
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I agree that can be a solution, however it favors certain killers over others and may potentially break some maps due to their shape. I guess since we are getting a map rework this might not be a problem in the future but as I see it survivors should have an equal chance to take the hatch. If killer knows where the hatch is, it's just impossible to use. I will just hook the third guy and rush to the hatch, and even slow killers could do this by hooking as close as they can to hatch and rushing over to it.
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It's a 4vs1 where one wields a chainsaw and the 4 wield deadly lightsabers.
There is nothing fair on that situation!
The EGC works just fine.
Hatch shouldn't exist in the first place. But since people would hold the game hostage, the current version is just great.
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@Tsulan "Hatch shouldn't exist in the first place."
So again, killers should get a free 4k when they actually only earned a 3k.
Do you really not see the killer biased in this statement?
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Well if you played perfectly until that point, why should the survivor still be highly able to beat you? He failed all his previous "tests", so?
And sorry if I don't share your vision of being a fool. I never slug the 3rd guy because it highly sucks for him, chances are he will DC anyway to grant hatch if 4th guy finds it, and generally I don't get high on being a jerk. If 4k comes naturally, without dragging someone else's game, so be it.
If not, let's all move on quickly to the next match. I won 3-1 anyway.
And as a survivor, same rules apply.
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What about situations where the Survivor knows where the Hatch is, though?
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I like how it is now.
Actually, one change is that I would like for the hatch to only spawn after 4 gens being done and not based on survivor deaths.
That way, it's more of a toss-up.
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Doesn't matter because my hatch close overrides their use hatch. If I'm standing on the hatch just before it opens, survivor can't use it. Doesn't matter if they know where it is and are standing there waiting with me.
@Condorloco_26 "Well if you played perfectly until that point, why should the survivor still be highly able to beat you? He failed all his previous "tests", so?"
First, they aren't "highly able to beat me" it's 50/50 and I have control over whether or not the situation even happens in the first place. Second, if both players play perfectly killer still wins in this situation, because all things considered it's just impossible for the survivor no matter how well they play EGC. Their only chance is that I make a mistake, and mechanics that rely on a player making a mistake in order for the other side to have a fair opportunity are fundamentally broken. See old DS.
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This I could support also, but this doesn't solve the underlying issue with hatch closing in that killer is guaranteed the kill unless they mess up.
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Survivors played bad: hatch spawns.
Killer plays bad: teabagging spawns.
Or did I miss the update where 4 are about to escape and the gate closes before the last one gets out. So the killer gets a kill?
The losing side shouldn't be rewarded!
If the Killer played good to get his kills, that 4 kill isn't free.
If survivors played good, the game shouldn't punish them either.
Survivors tell killers to use blood Warden in order to get some kills. How about using left behind to get out?
There's no bias in my post. Can you say the same?
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"Doesn't matter because my hatch close overrides their use hatch. If I'm standing on the hatch just before it opens, survivor can't use it. Doesn't matter if they know where it is and are standing there waiting with me."
Hasn't it been said that it's not supposed to?
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Failing to do gens, failing to help keeping your teammates alive, and failing to find the hatch first don't deserve any pampering. And still, you have 2 possible exit gates.
The thing is, survivors are so used to old hatch that they feel egc is so unfair, whereas in reality the game is still giving them 3 free chances to escape regardless of what happened during the trial.
Tell me how a killer gets 3 free chances when he failed at everything? Maybe NOED is 1, which can be 100% defused even before it activates. And EVERY SURVIVOR HATES. Because it's cheap AF.
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I mean......the EGC is meant to favor the killer, not the survivor in anyway shape or form
This is another of those thread that are "Hey, if this exist, it must favor both sides"...its not always like that
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Nah, the Killer is in favor of finding the Hatch. If the Hatch was not found before by the Killer or Survivor and if no Luck is involved, the Killer has the advantage. He moves faster and does not need to hide from anything.
But what should be taken into consideration is the Distance of Exit Gates to each other and Exit Gate Distance to the Hatch. It needs a Minimum and Maximum. I had one game on Thompsons House where the Exit Gates were on the same side of the Trial Wall and that close to each other that a Nurse without blinking would be able to go from one Gate to the other. If this would happen during EGC, this would be no chance for the Survivor.
And I have also seen Gates which spawn so far apart from each other, that I was not able to travel from one to the other with a 115% MS Killer.
I dont think that Surviving the EGC should be easy, I dont care for Survival. But there should be less RNG in it.
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Well, any argument can be used in favor of any side finding the hatch first.
For example: a survivor can do absolutely nothing during a trial, not gens, not heal, not unhook, not totems, and still dedicate all his time exclusively to hide and look for the hatch when it spawns, while the killer must be running around chasing hitting hooking etc. which leaves him with little time to spare and go look for it.
The only way to know for sure who's finding the hatch first and interacting with it, would be asking Peanits about that particular stat.
But I think you're right about the min - max distance between gates and its RNG. It would be the right thing to do. Still, there will be exceptions like Lery's and the meat plant, where gates always spawn on opposite sides.
However, if that particular aspect about RNG is going to be looked into just because right now it's mostly affecting survivors, I'd say they should at the same time look into all RNG involved when it's affecting killers.
Namely: number of, and distance between pallets (I've broken 16 pallets in Plague's map and I've not even broken them all), jungle gyms in autohaven spawning with double pallets, etc. Number of, and distance of open windows in Haddonfield, etc.
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Thats why I wrote "not found before". If a Survivor sees it first, he knows where it is, sure. If the Killer sees it while chasing another Survivor, he knows it. If there is a SWF, the Hatch Position is also known.
Regarding RNG, in general this game is really RNG-heavy at some points. Windows Open/Closed, Structures next to each other... But I am not sure if this can really be addressed, because in the end, variety is a good thing in DBD, even if you get the same Map, it can be different.
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That's so unnecessary though? Like, why?
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THIS IS NOT A TEAM GAME STOP TREATING AS SUCH.
While it is generally in your better interest to work with others and keep each other alive, as it increases your OWN chance of survival, you are not bound to each other like other team games. Similarly, as 1 survivor there is only so much you can do. If the other 3 don't do gens and don't make saves, you get punished for it. I could do 3 gens by myself and still die because no one else did anything. Explain to me how it is then fair that I should die with the rest when I did WAY more than my share of the work? Why should I not be given a fair chance to escape, especially if I outlived the other 3?
Failing to do gens just means that not EVERYONE gets to escape. If survivors do 5 gens, ALL of them have a chance to escape. Otherwise only 1 gets a chance to escape.
Except that's not really what's going on. Again I could play way better than the killer and other survivors but still die because I was the only one doing gens. You're saying that I played "bad" when I actually play exceedingly well and did more than what I should have had to do as an individual. On the flip side, if killer played well then there shouldn't be 4 survivors making it to the gates. To say that a killer played well in that situation is just asinine. That is like saying a survivor that did no gens and got caught in 10 seconds should escape. And if the killer killed 3, then they have the advantage on the 4th kill, not a guarantee on the 4th kill, which closing the hatch basically does at this point.
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"Why should I not be given a fair chance to escape, especially if I outlived the other 3?"
What is the Hatch, if not a fair chance to escape after outliving the other three?
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And I still don't see the problem. Say you watch for your own back only and don't give a damn about anyone, or even gens.
Still, you can have a headstart since you can go looking for that sweet hatch while the killer is busy as soon as the 3rd guy is being chased/dropped/hooked, depending on how many gens got done.
If the killer is like you and slugs the 3rd guy, depending on his actions you can either:
- heal the guy, if the killer leaves because he's looking for the hatch, thus resetting the game
- you go look for the hatch while the guy bleeds out and is being camped by the killer
In the unfortunate event of the guy going down exactly where the hatch spawned, go look for the exit gates. You have 2, and the killer is waiting to kick the hatch door, so you have a headstart already. If he kicks it, open the gate you're already on. If he doesn't kick it, EGC doesn't trigger and game hasn't ended yet.
I think egc is fine.
Maybe like it's already been suggested, just adjust the min-max spawn distance of exit gates .
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But that's my point, it's not actually a fair chance to escape because if killer knows where the hatch is it is IMPOSSIBLE to take. And once killer closes the hatch, you still don't get a fair chance to escape because EGC favors killer so heavily that the only way you can make it out is if they screw up. Again, mechanics that rely on someone making a mistake for it to be balanced/fair are fundamentally broken. This was the problem with old DS, as the only reliable counter was to just hope the guy misses the skill check. That's not fair to the killer.
If you heal the guy and have 3 gens left, it won't matter. Unless one of you is a god looper and keeps the killer busy while 1 person can do 3 gens and a door, it WILL BE A HATCH GAME.
If you leave the guy to die, killer will just go and stand on hatch then close it right when it opens. If the killer camps the guy until he bleeds out then you can take hatch, but that's a mistake on the killer's part (see above), and completely out of your control. A smart killer would hook the guy before he bleeds out, near the hatch, then stand on hatch as it opens and close it.
If you sit by an exit gate it still doesn't matter. Unless its a slow killer and the gates are as far apart as they can possibly be, the killer WILL catch you on the gate before you can open it. Again, if you open the gate and escape, it wasn't in your control the killer simply made a mistake. When I play Spirit and close the hatch on the last guy, in my mind I think "GG" because that dude is dead. Nothing he can do will make a difference in escaping, his only hope is I potato hard and give him the chance to escape. If I play perfectly, he is dead no matter what he does. It's like, why not just have the last survivor instantly die when you close the hatch and save everyone the trouble. That's basically what is happening here.
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You are asking for more slugging.
Because your idea would result in exactly that.
As others said, survivors got so used to that effortless free escape, that now they don't know what to do.
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"But that's my point, it's not actually a fair chance to escape because if killer knows where the hatch is it is IMPOSSIBLE to take."
But if the Survivor knows and not the Killer, then they have a more than reasonable chance, no?
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Slugging at least means survivors have an opportunity to make plays. If you are on death hook, would you rather I slug you and give you another chance or just kill you and you have 0 chance?
And I'm saying this all as a killer, not as a survivor.
ME... Spirit... slugs third guy...finds hatch...hooks/kills third guy...rushes to hatch...close hatch...patrol gates...find survivor...survivor dies. This is how it goes. You cannot get away from me if I do this, I've done it many times at this point. Like I keep saying, your only chance to escape out the gate in this situation is if I screw up.
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Well, if the killer catches you on the gate before you can open it:
it means you made the mistake of going to the nearest gate from the hatch, and the killer made the right choice of looking for that gate first
If you know the killer is sitting in the hatch, waiting for the 3rd guy to bleed out so he can kick it, you should look for the farthest gate and sit by it. If the killer makes the wrong choice of gate, you win. If he makes the right chase, you'll still have enough time to make it/leave it 70-80%.
You can also choose to sit by the gate, hide, then wait until the killer comes, sees no progress is being made, and then leaves for the other gate. Just like you wait for starting a gen in the beginning of the match. There are 2 full minutes in which you can do that.
You would only be royally screwed if all three things spawned together, hatch, gate 1 and gate 2. Not much to do there.
I don't really know what else to say.
Only that there's a 50/50 on killer/surv chance to find hatch first and interact with it.
Your idea of 2 hatches still leaves you with the original 50% chance of jumping through it, since you can be unlucky and find the fake one.
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But survivors already called slugging as holding the game hostage out.
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@Condorloco_26 "Well, if the killer catches you on the gate before you can open it: it means you made the mistake of going to the nearest gate from the hatch, and the killer made the right choice of looking for that gate first"
No... dude you are not reading.
There is no opening the gate before the killer catches you. It doesn't matter which gate you choose, the killer will catch you on the gate if they are smart and know how to patrol. It is impossible to open the gate if the killer does this perfectly. You have 2 minutes to open the gate, and it takes 20 seconds to open. Even if you tap the gate and leave before the killer comes back, they know you were there because they can see the lights on the gate.
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In this forum only provides the ideas that favor the killers.
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They can call it whatever they want, doesn't make it so.
But when I close the hatch on the last guy as Spirit, it DOES make it impossible for the last guy to open a gate. There is no arguing that, I've done it to so many survivors at this point that's just how it is. I kill the third guy, rush over to hatch and close it then say GG to the last guy because he has a 99.99999% chance of death. The only exceptions are 1) gates are as far apart as possible, or 2) I mess up. Both are beyond the survivors control.
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Wouldn't the solution, then, be to make it easier for the last Survivor to escape through the gate?
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<There is no opening the gate before the killer catches you>
This. You're saying this as if it was a fact. Why not? Is there an Entity blocker on the switch?
You're saying 20 seconds are enough for a killer to kick the hatch and patrol 2 gates and prevent interaction in any of them, at all times?
Only Billy may be able to do that in certain maps if RNG favored him and a Pride Hill spawned in the middle of the map (and WITH the hatch there, too) with no LOS blockers so he can react immediately to any movement on either gate. I can only think of Blood Lodge, maybe Wreckers.
But even he can't do that in Yamaoka, Temple of purgation/mother's dwelling, Crotus/Chapel, Lery's, Game, Springwood, Haddonfield, Azarov, Ormond, etc.
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Possibly. However I feel like that is a very precarious change such that even a small change to escaping through the gate could swing EGC in favor of the survivor which is also bad. We don't want either side to get the freebie, we want it to be mostly balanced with killer having the slight advantage. Something like 60/40 in favor of killer. Currently it feels more like 95/5 in favor of killer. Make opening gates faster or something, and it could be 95/5 in favor of survivor.
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I'm not convinced the numbers are as you say they currently are.
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Do this.
When you have 2 survivors left, slug one and find hatch. Then take the hook, go over to hatch, wait for it to open, and close it. Then just patrol the gates until you either see the survivor or see a light on the gate. You should get the last guy almost 100% of the time. If you don't then you did something wrong, or the gates were as far apart as they could possibly be.
Like I said, 2 people have escaped my Spirit out the gate after I closed hatch. Out of 25 ish games. And both times were because I made a mistake, not because the survivor did anything special.
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Oh btw, they made opening the gate faster and nerfed remember me with the introduction of EGC.
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@Tsulan "Bring a key? Some planning beforehand..."
Oh you don't want to proc MOM? Pick Billy and only chainsaw. Planning beforehand and all.
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