Comparison: BBQ&C <-> WGLF
Do you think in comparison that WGLF (We're gonna live vorever) is much weaker than BBQ&C (Barbecue & Chilli)?
BBQ&C:
- Killer has to hook 4 different survivors = 4 Stacks (I think it's easy-medium to achieve.)
- Killer gets to see some survivors (if not countered by range, lockers etc.)
WGLF:
- Surv has to safe-unhook (love this change! no more farming) or get a protection hit (hard to get) to get a stack
- No other advantages
If survivors want to get more blood-points, they have to get rid of a whole perk-slot, to use WGLF, which has no other use. Additional it's harder to get 4 stacks, especially when 4 survivors are running this perk. (There are times where 3 survivors run to save 1 peron from the hook, just to get the stacks up.) Additional many times where you get protection hits, the killer still gets the survivor to the hook or he gets a fast second hit on you...
Killers just have to hook up the survivors and get a visual bonus (aura-reading) on survivors.
I think for WGLF it would be nice to have different ways to get stacks... maybe clean a hextotem... be in a chase for 30 seconds up... maybe for doing one or two gens.. something like that.
Additional for WGLF.. to not only be a bloodpoint-perk and also get a nice "bonus" like the aura-reading for the killer with bbq&c, I think it would be nice if there would be a small bonus for the survivors which each stack... I'm not very creative here and I don't want to make the perk overpowered... but maybe a little aura-reading too? (Do a Gen - See a gen? do a totem - see a totem? Safe Unhook - 2 second killer aura?)
Those are just examples... but I think in terms of fairness it would be nice, if the 2 perks had a similar effect and are as achieveable.
What do you guys think?
(As a little reminder: I know there are games where killer don't get to hook all survivors... but remember there are more games, where you only get 0-3 stacks of WGLF - at least in my experience)
Comments
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Before I played killer I always thought bp gain was unfair because killer seemed to get more. But when most killers are heavily add on dependant you really need more bp than survivors. As a survivor I don't need any items tbh because perks are good enough for me. As a killer I need at least yellow and green ones to make the game more enjoyable.
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Addons is a good point... I rarely play with addons as survivor (always afraid of franks..) only offerings.
But survivors need bloodpoints for perks, which we get with bloodpoints. I'm trying to get all teachable perks... I'm at 400h playtime and still need more...
The grind is really hard and WGLF isn't helping much, since the stacks are so hard to achieve... of you get them, but die in the progress. (Not all of the times... sometimes it works perfectly).
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A good argument, dear friend. But you mentioned the shrine... so both perks are achievable with playtime. So I think they should be equally fair.
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Killers need bp for perks and add ons, that is even worse. Right now I am playing Myers most of the time and I really love dead rabbits combined with some green add ons. I have enough for some games but when I think about leveling up other killers for perks I always have to keep in mind that I need add ons for my mains too. It sucks that I have to choose between the two.
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It would be nice, if we could take the things we don't need and give them back for the entity in exchange for bloodpoints. So the grind would ease up for both sides.
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Yeah I have tons of add ons I will never use. ;(
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Another way to get Tokens? Sure, i don't mind, but make them be earned with Altruistic actions.
Not that i care, but the devs want you to get Tokens with Altruistic actions.
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then maybe for 1 full heal 1 stack of wglf? :)
you are absolutely right. what's your idea to fix that?
maybe both perks as a standard teachable? or something like every two months both perks have to be in the shrine?
I think for long-time-players it makes no difference, because at one point you had it in the shrine...
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They are both equal in my opinions.
There are so ######### rare cases, BBQ helps you out, because it is countered by nearly everything.
Stand behind a gen => Countered
Get in a locker => Countered
Be too close to the killer => Countered
I run BBQ for the points, while I don't run WGLF on survivors.
Here's an explaination why:
As survivor, you heavily depend on your perks, because they are much stronger than the killer's perks.
There are a few strong killer perks, but in general the strongest ones can be deactivated fast and easily like NOED or Ruin.
But that's basically it, killers don't hav extremely good perks.
Spirit Fury + Enduring takes up one slot and only get's you like faster 4 successful hits in a game max.
2 slots for 4 faster hits.
Ruin alone stops gen aggression a little bit, but is destroyed immediatly most of the time after the round has started.
NOED can be completely annulated and even after it is activated, you have like 30 seconds to find a survivor, otherwise they all already left.
NOED only works on greedy af survivors.
Just saying, best killer perks are nothing compared to the strength of survivor perks like Lithe, Balanced Landing and Dead Hard for example.
So I run Decisive Strike (free shoulders get off), Borrowed Time (free save(s) without any skill required), Adrenaline (Free health state + speed boost, opposite of NOED, just like really situational) and Lithe (BL is better, but I can handle Lithe better fsr)
There then is no space for a WGLF.
I would have to sacrifice one of my 4 second chance perks.
I like my 4 second chances, that's what makes my as survivor overpowered.
Also the inf loops, window loops and extremely powerful pallets all around the map.
As killer I normally run BBQ (points, yay), Ruin (I hate gen rush), NOED (I hate gen rush) and like Brutal Strength (It feels nice to actually not break a pallet like a crippled child) or Enduring (Doesn't help me often however).
I like to combine Enduring and Spirit Fury, but BBQ is taking up the slot.
I tried replacing NOED or Ruin, but that just resulted in me being ######### in the end game when not playing a one hit killer, so I had to go back to NOED. (Don't use it on Billy, btw.)
Why not remove Ruin? Guess what, guys. Gen rush.
I am forced to run these perks, because otherwise I get BMed or really really mad for not being rewarded for my skillful plays within the game.
I don't play billy or nurse on a regular schedule, especially because I suck at nurse, because I have a hearing disorder and also orientation problems which ######### my nurse gameplay considerably.
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I think WGLF should reveal other surivors' locations to you, just like BBQ.
They virtually serve the dame purpose, we just need a real reason to use WGLF other than points.
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Then your problem is with the grind, not WGLF and BBQ specifically. And, frankly, using perks as ways to solve problems in the base game is something we wish to avoid.
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That's just another wish ...
I still think BBQ ist much stronger than WGLF.
Even if it is countered by hiding in a locker... it takes time for survivors to get there..
My wishes are:
Easier stacks: Maybe through a fullheal (so you can get 4 stacks with 2 safeunhooks + heal - in a perfect game with all 4 surviros running WGLF everyone could get 4 stacks theoretically)
And a bonus for WGLF like the aurareading with BBQ... maybe your next skillcheck after getting a stack is a greater one... or more actionspeed for some seconds... or aurareading on the killer ...
@Peanits @not_Queen : Are there any plans to even those 2 perks out? In terms of fairness?
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Why should the power role's perks not be more powerful than the number role's perks?
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BBQ used to be stronger. Nowadays, a lot of survivors are hiding from BBQ. I wouldn't run this perk if it wouldn't give bonus bloodpoints.
If you'd like to see some additional bonus to WGLF "in terms of fairness", can you think of a bonus that could be useful but that at the same time can be easily countered by the killer and made useless?
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Stacks for BBQ are harder to get than WGLF stacks. Fact
Just equip BT and get all the "safe" unhooks you want.
Killer can't get full stacks if someone disconnects.
The aura reading of BBQ has been nerfed several times. At this point I'm not sure what survivors and the devs really want.
It's supposed to give the killer a reason to leave the hook by giving him a new target. Thus reducing camping. But that's not what people want...
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200% WGLF is all Im asking
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@Andreyu44 It got removed for a reason.
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@Andreyu44 If you farm somebody with Borrowed Time, it's still farming and hurts the farmed survivor a lot, if the killer doesn't go for the unhooker.
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Equip BT and farm all you want.
People would find a way around this restriction.
But sure, why not have the 200% bonus. I loved the resulting mayhem!
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You're right ...
How about...
WGLF doesn't give you stacks for unhooking,but instead ,you gain stacks by healing people and doing generators?
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@Andreyu44 That would motivate survs to focus on gens and let their teammates die on the hook.
The thing is, if the amount of bonus bloodpoints is too high, it will influence the way the game is played too much. You could see that happen in the past when there were special events.
At the moment, we have "only" 100% bloodpoint bonus for WGLF and there are already people who don't play the game properly (and just yolo farm with BT). If WGLF would give more bonus bp, this problem would intensify, no matter which way you get the stacks.
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I honestly do no think it would be that dramatic.
You rescue someone from the hook,and if you are not farming you can heal them and get the stacks.
But I understand your POV
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Yeah, but logically the power role perks should be 4 times as strong as the number role perks. As of right now, WGLF has 0 in game use, so BBQ, the killer equivalent, is infinitely times as strong. A small in game use for WGLF would be appropriate. Something like whenever it procs, it reveals your aura to all other survivors for 6/7/8 seconds.
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I personally think both of their blood point components should be baked into the base game as each encourage "fun" game play. WGLF would just need a new effect for it.
As someone else already pointed out though, killers do need more blood points because of how addon dependent they are.
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Which is ironic because in most cases the power role has the weaker perks currently.
I agree though.
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i don't really care if they make getting stacks on WGLF easier but the aura reading probably won't work there are a bunch of perks that give aura reading with similar activation but they dont give blood points.
also not knowing if it is safe to heal under hook is an important part of the game
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Either that or show killer location
I don't mind with those changes
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All survivor perks have something that impact the game such as, BUT is not limited to a healing bonus, aura reading, recovery bonus, repair speed bonus, and etc. However, WGLF doesn't have anything because Bloodpoints doesn't mean anything in one's ability to survive, it's just currency for the Bloodweb. Yes, you can use BP to get better stuff in the Bloodweb, but why use WGLF when BBQ&C is more consistent? I can get 64k on my Nurse game and then use those BP on my survivors, which I already do. I have no reason to play survivor if I want BP and the perk doesn't even aid you in-game. Survivors aren't asking for a OP perks, we want something small to help it become an option.
I was thinking WGLF should be merged with We'll Make It, and every health state you heal while the perk is activate should also award a token.
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here is the thing:
looking at both sides, we see the Killer with 4 total perk slots and the Survivors with 16 total Perk slots. due to the fact that the killer has quite the disadvantage here, the Killer perks are stronger in their effects than the Survivor perks, therefore the Killer can have a maximum of 4 Perks to support them during the trial.
now, when both sides have a perk very similar in its effects (BBQ and WGLF), the Killers perk needs to be superior. in this case, we have the aura reading effect. taking that away would lead to an inbalance between the 2 sides.
when looking at that strength difference, we cant get around Adrenaline and NOED. Adrenaline gives you a short speed boost and heals you. to compensate, NOED gives the killer a permanent speedboost and allows to oneshot. when comparing both perks, NOED is therefore stronger, which it needs to be to compensate for the lesser amount of possible Killer perk choices. now, a lot of people want NOED to be nerfed to death. alright, do that, BUT with the same patch they NEED to kill Adrenaline aswell, otherwise that would create a huge imbalance gameplay wise.
if a survivor perk trumps the killer perks, its a really strong perk to be used and will easily be considered a "meta perk". old DS had that problem, as it trumped every perk the killer had and activated its effect, giving the killer no way around the perk. same goes for the current MoM. now, i get it that a WGLF that lets you see the killer aura for X seconds will not be as strong as those perks, but it would still be too good.
in my eyes, WGLF is fine the way it is. if you insist on buffing it though, BBQ also needs to be adjusted.
if the survivor perks end up as strong / stronger than their killer side equivalents, killers will feel that in their trials. and it wont be nice.
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You actually mentioned the 16 to 4 perk ratio that implies killer perks should be approximately 4 times as powerful as survivor perks. WGLF has 0 in game use which makes BBQ infinite times better mathematically. I agree with the notion that killer perks should be about 4 times as strong and survivor perks. However, that notions that WGLF actually needs have something in order to reach 1/4 the strength of BBQ's effect.
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@Dehitay that does not necessarily need to be the case. besides that, you will not alway be able to gain the perfect 1/4th of the killer perks strength. its enough if the killer perk is superior in one aspect, allowing it to function as multiple survivor perks at once, so if survivors want a similar effect then need to sacrifice 2 perk slots (WGLF + Alert for example).
its just that a WGLF with the same aura reading aspect for the survivors could be too strong, especially if we are talking about a 4 man SWF that can put all of their 16 possible perks to good use.
if we were to buff WGLF, there would need to be an upcoming BBQ buff aswell, making it the superior perk once again. i wouldnt mind that too much, if WGLF had another use than soley BP, but in that case they eigther need to give it an inferior effect or buff BBQs effects. thats pretty much all i was saying.
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