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A slight nerf to decisive to actually make it an anti tunneling perk
1 minute can seem like a much longer time than it is on paper.
sometimes games will go by very fast with hooks going by rapidly. this is where decisive can seem very annoying to go against, since at its heart it’s an anti tunneling perk, but after a couple hooks you can still get hit by it when you’re obviously not tunneling.
the proposed change I had in mind is something along these lines: Decisive has the same activation, being unhooked. After it activates, any other survivors that are hooked causes the timer to go down somewhere around 10-15 seconds.
this would still punish killers for tunneling, but reward fair play from killers. This will also be fair since enduring will no longer work against it.
What do you guys think? Honestly decisive isn't that crazy powerful in its current state, but this would negate those extremely annoying edge cases.
Comments
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I've been posting about this specific issue for a long time now, saying getting hit by DS after hooking 2 other guys is just dumb.
Your idea could really work well, actually. That way, if a killer downs both unhooked and unhooker in a short time, DS would most likely still proc. But, on the other side, hooking 2 other guys would take away 30 secs from the timer and the killer wouldn't be unfairly punished.
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It gets nerfed into the ground, and you want more. Mother of god, at this point, just get better, or learn to slug.
Disclaimer: I don't use DS. I don't like perks that may never be used in my setup.
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Did you not read the post? Why be condescending?
I literally said you get hit by it after you aren’t tunneling. How would I “git gud” and avoid it when I’m already not tunneling?
if you have nothing constructive to say then please refrain from saying anything.
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and what about situations where I do get tunneled off hook but I play well enough to not get downed within 60 seconds? in getting tunneled but my "anti-tunnel perk" isn't helping me. there are issues for both sides, I'd prefer to just leave it as is
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or, give decisive strike a rework in general.
it could be one to mess with the wiggle timer instead of straight up leaving the killer's grasp.
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I'm fine with this, downing or hooking any other survivor after 5 seconds have passed off the hook removes 10 seconds. The 5 second buffer is so make your choice or other exposed effects downing your saviour don't screw with it.
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Sorry but you're not going to ever love a perk that allows a survivor to instantly break free from your gasp. This perk has been nerfed, a lot, and made better by stunning during the pick up animation and not like 3 seconds later. I don't understand why you can't just accept that once in a while you're going to get hit by DS. Much less than used to be the case.
Plenty of killer perks and powers annoy the ever loving ######### out of me but that doesn't mean they deserve a nerf.
The devs can't keep nerfing perks until there are so few situations that they trigger that they become virtually useless. There's nothing written in a contract saying DS must only be an anti tunnel perk, but that's how it activates the majority of the time.
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@brokedownpalace that’s fair. I understand that eventually getting hit by ds is inevitable. This change was just something I thought of because it can seem very unfair to get penalized by something that you played around.
Judging by the amount of downvotes and salt on this thread I’m gonna assume this wasn't the best idea lmao. If the community doesn’t want it then so be it.
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Hm, I think the perks in a good spot, sure I get hit by it occasionally but aside from that it's currently fine. Most of the time I just slug the person if I suspect them to have DS and come back later
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At this rate, soon people like this will be demanding Vigil get nerfed.😂
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@Paladin_Goo that’s a bit of a stretch my man
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Just no, my god stop with these nerfs.
Decisive is fine as it is, leave it alone...
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Vigil op!!
why can exhaustion recover faster!! op op nerf
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Is it, though? DS was nerfed, it was generally accepted. Now people want it nerfed more. If it gets nerfed any more, it may as well not exist. Soon, Vigil will annoy killers somehow and they'll want it nerfed. Before long, they'll ask the devs to cut off survivors' legs, so they can't move, cause RUNNING OP.
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@Paladin_Goo ds always has been and will continue to be a powerful perk. The only way it would be horrible is if they changed the effect it had entirely or make it have almost impossible to reach prerequisites.
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There is nothing wrong with powerful perks, though. That's the thing. Killers have them as well.
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DS is too strong right now, because the game is about time for killers.
Same goes for not being able to hit unhooked survivors right after unhook or that you can't grab off unhookers mid animation anymore. (due to bugs/latency etc.)
These 3 things make survivors just go for the hook, even if it's dangerous, if you're not a 1 hit killer, because the risk is too low to actually care.
Nerfing DS won't fix #########.
The 2 methods for safe unhooking above should be removed and then DS can stay as it is.
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I grab unhookers mid animation all the time. Literally did it a few minutes ago. What are you on about?
Brush up on your facts, ASAP
Also, it is NOT under any circumstance too strong, unless you tunnel off hook. There's other survivors you could go after. You know, the one who just unhooked them, or the one doing the gen (if we're talking about time here). It is not too strong. Period.
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@Paladin_Goo but the killer should be the power role in the game. One could argue that survivors aren’t supposed to have second chance perks in the first place. As a matter of fact, survivors could honestly have no second chance perks and still do extremely well. Killers rely on powerful perks since there is only one killer vs 4 well equipped survivors. Killer perks SHOULD be powerful. Survivor perks should be strong, but not entirely game changing, but that’s a whole other discussion so I’ll leave it at that.
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My problem is the definition given to DS. Anti-tunneling. However, it activates without the killer tunneling. Then people use it as an argument and say 'stop tunneling' even though it isn't just an anti-tunneling perk in practice. Either make those changes to make it strictly an anti-tunnel perk or change the definition of it. I'm tired of seeing it used incorrectly in arguments.
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@artist I wouldn't mind adding a third condition, in which if a survivor is chased right off the hook and DOESN'T break chase (meaning, winning it, losing the killer) the perk is is still active. (None of that Terror radius bullcrap).
That way it will ONLY punish tunneling.
And the fair thing would be: if the guy wasn't chased off the hook, DS won't proc.
But everyone is gonna cry, so... I agree with the condition mentioned by @SlickSal which IMO would solve the problem.
The rest of you guys, the same guys as always, are pulling the same old strawmen.
Because asking to not get punished after hooking 2 OTHER guys is too much, and equals asking survivors starting the match hanging on hooks.
But keep doing your thing, you're already getting killers with no effective power, so we're heading in the right direction now.
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The killer should be the power role, yes, but that isn't an excuse to nerf everything survivor related into the ground. No, you can not, under any circumstance argue that survivors shouldn't have second chance perks. It's a video game. It's meant to be fun, FOR EVERYONE, not just killers.
If killer mains like you had it your way, survivors would spawn already on hooks. Easy games, easy life. Some killer mains need to get their heads out of their asses - survivor perks have been nerfed into the ground in the last year while killers have had more buffs than nerfs. Which is good - don't get me wrong, but now you're at a point where you're just nitpicking and being entitled about what you're asking for in terms of nerfing survivor things. Get better, exercise a little skill-building. Don't continuously try to get anything good survivors have nerfed into the ground. It's at a point where "entitled killer main" is becoming a thing. Which I never thought would happen.
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@Paladin_Goo who said I was a killer main? I just argue what I think is fair. Survivors are already powerful without second chance perks. And like @Condorloco said you’re using the same straw man argument for that second paragraph.
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"A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent."
Refuting an argument not presented? Says the guy doing exactly what I said he's doing - trying to nerf anything good survivors have into the ground. Not even that I consider DS that good, but still, something people like, and you want it gone or made absolutely useless because it doesn't agree with your delicate killer ego. Then what? A new meta will come out, survivors will adapt, and you'll demand that be nerfed too. When will it end?
No, it's not a straw man argument. But nice try. You can be hypothetical, and exaggerating without creating a straw man.
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Then again, survivors already have 3 lives.
No one is arguing about adrenaline, self care, balanced landing, hope, prove thyself, iron will, urban evasion, lithe, alert, dead hard, even borrowed time, etc... All of them strong perks. Very good perks in the right builds.
The game should be fun for both sides, yes I agree. Tell me how is getting cheesed fun for you? Like with all the stupid Old Legion mechanics?
Old DS was bad design and similar to receiving 3 kicks in the nuts,
Now you only get kicked in the nuts once, so why are you crying?
And the thing even got worse with MoM. But hey, at least they're already changing it and not after 2 years.
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@Paladin_Goo the bottom line is that you are saying I’m trying to have easy 4ks every game which is not at all the case. I want fair games. Having ds proc after obviously playing around it is not exactly fair, since survivors can make huuuuge mistakes in gameplay and actually punish the killer for playing fair and well.
The current tools survivors have are enough. To argue otherwise is just silly. Killers are almost always at a disadvantage even with the best perks. The change I suggested is not at all outrageous. This small change will only affect those unfair instances. The perk will still be strong so calm down fam.
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Strawman 1: Saying killers ask for already-hooked survivors.
Strawman 2: Saying killers ask for Vigil get nerfed.
Strawman 3: Saying killers ask for survivors' legs get chopped off.
Do you want me to go on?
Reality: Killers asking for DS to be an actual antitunneling perk.
And current DS is NOT an antitunneling perk. It's a 60 secs immunity perk. I've been hit at least 5 - 6 times with it AFTER hooking 2 other people on those 60 secs. Tell me the newest definition of tunneling then, if you think it applies in this case.
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DS is fine where it is.
We don't need to change perks over concept purity. For example, there are situations where the "anti camping" perk, BT, fails to counter camping. That does not mean BT needs a buff.
It is not overly powerful. It is not overused. It has counterplay. It is fine. We need not complicate it.
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Yet BT has recently received 2 buffs because of stupid Legion coming into the game.
BT was already very fine without them. But even with them now, BT doesn't feel like cheap cheese.
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I don't really think that's relevant since it was more of a lazy oversight than an intended change. No one at BHVR sat down and said "let's buff BT by releasing Legion and nerfing them twice."
Well, I think we need to establish why exactly DS needs to change then, since conceptual purity clearly isn't a driving factor here.
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@mcNuggets Start up a KYF with 3 friends, then get your friends to hook the other survivor. Pull them off hook, and you'll see a progress bar. That's your time window to be grabbed. Once it's full, you'll complete the channel and can't be grabbed
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If you manage to get 2-3 hooks while someone's DS is still active then you're already doing good and shouldn't be bothered by getting stunned with it.
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I hate you for making this point, but, well, you got a point.
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@SlickSal Not waiting 10 extra seconds for DS to wear off is not exactly playing well.
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If you manage to do 3 - 4 gens in less than 5 minutes, where's the need to protect yourself from tunneling?
See, we could do this all night long.
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@Visionmaker so players should have a stopwatch at the ready just for the chance that a survivor might have decisive after hooking two other survivors?
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Add a timer on all recently unhooked people then, and I'll agree with you.
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@SlickSal You should always expect commonly used perks. I don't need to fall for Dead Hard to know they have it. If you are always so successful at downing multiple survivors, then perhaps you should get into a habit of slugging the unhooked survivor.
@Condorloco_26 No duration based mechanic, except hook duration, is revealed to the killer. I don't see why this needs an exception.
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DS is not a 60sec Immunity #########? you can slug that guy and go after the next, its called Map Pressure!!! It's something killers are forgetting hence why so many killers need Ruin. Watch Hybrid Panda (future killers) he got to rank 1 as killer without "RUIN" is all about the pressure.
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You're the one talking about waiting 10 seconds.
I'm the one talking about I shouldn't even worry because I didn't tunnel, since I went for 2 other guys. Not only one, but two.
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@Visionmaker I understand that it is possible, but its not always easiest to tell during the heat of the game and you don’t always know if someone has it. You could easily be wasting your own time.
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When you actually reach R1 and don't lobby dodge swf, you'll know what I'm talking about.
Slugging people is good, yes. Until they are part of a team loaded with aura perks, instaheals, unbreakable, etc.
If slugging was the Panacea, Knockout would be the king perk.
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So what? The perk stipulates that you need to wait 60s. If you went for 2 other guys, then you should barely have any time left.
The perk doesn't need to perfectly align with your vision for it. That's not how balance is determined. What's actually important is how viable it is. Again, Borrowed Time fails to be an anti-camping perk at times and that is okay. DS fails to be an anti-tunneling perk at times, and that is okay.
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@SlickSal That is just part of being skilled. Killer is all about time management and game sense under stress.
If you fail to read DS (and survivors with it will often make it obvious), then why are you entitled to disabling it?
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@Visionmaker guess I’m trash then :(. Nah jk, but I feel this is one of those issues that we must agree to disagree sadly. Maybe one day the devs will force it on us like the Freddy nerf and we’ll see how it goes.
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The difference being, when BT fails at being an anticamping perk, it doesn't screw the killer.
When DS fails at being an antitunneling perk, it screws the killer.
And why are we acting as it didn't get buffed just after being nerfed? Increased the stun time to 5 secs because of enduring, and now enduring doesn't even work on DS stun.
But let's keep the 5 sec stun, right.
Besides, if you wait for the 60 secs to run out the survivor will just get another chance at it at the next hook, so pick your poison.
Adrenaline doesn't align with my "vision" either, but it's a fair perk. A strong, fair perk.
Non tunneling DS is cheese.
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We're not talking about NOED.
Besides, NOED can be disabled even before it activates, OR while it's active. Show me the totem I must break to prevent eating non-tunneling DS in a match.
And if you want to take NOED away, fine, erase it, I don't care about NOED. Do the same to DS and we have a fair trade.
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So this is about Killers vs Survivors then? If a perk is not perfect to your expectations, it's totally fine if it benefits Killers? But when one perk has rare, bonus opportunities for survivors, it is problematic?
I don't agree with that nerf to Enduring. But I am not the ones with the stats here.
Yes, they will, if you tunnel. The perk is near worthless if you do not, and at the very most, it will require a smidgen of patience. Besides, if a survivor is somehow getting downed within 60s every time they get rescued, then they are offering up a win on a platter for you. A slugged survivor is a useless survivor.
Ironically, given that Adrenaline and BT are the third and fourth most used perks respectively.
Well it is so rare and still easily countered, I find it insubstantial.
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