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balance and the value of streamers and youtubers
Nothing. Literally nothing. With the exception of Panda, they upload games where they win. Sometimes admittedly, sometimes not. Very few of them are more than narcissistic manchildren with oversized egos.
Now, I didn't start this discussion with the sole intent of bashing them. Some of them are still fun to watch, despite the above. However, people, can you please stop bringing them up when discussing balance? I've seen people referring to any experimental build TrueTalent tries out as "the new meta", I see OhTofu's Nurse video mentioned a lot lately, even though it's a game with hapless survivors who don't know what they're doing. And in general, most of these guys struggle so bad to be seen as "smart" or "skilled", it makes me cringe. Their opinions about the game is worthless, their videos are almost completely useless when it comes to proving any point about balance issues. Sheesh.
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Using a brain is hard those days. Better swallow the holy pill coming from an "influencer".
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As much as I don't like being a sheep I still value opinion of good players, and some of the proplr you mentioned are actualy good at the game and they proved it in their streamers. You can't cherry pick games if you stream 5 hours per day and talk to people in chat.
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@DudeDelicious yea I was exaggerating a bit in the heat of my rant. Still, treating these guys and their words as gospel is terribly silly.
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Treating any youtuber/streamers info as gospel is a bad for you because everyone is biased in more ways. but most of them do make good points (because they have so much time in game) on what is the issues with the game. and truth is the game should be balanced at red ranks. which most if not all content creators reach both killer and survivors
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On one hand, you shouldnt just parrot what a streamer says just because they're a streamer. On the other hand, a lot of them have far more experience in the game than most people, and you'd generally want to listen to experienced people over non experienced people, right? I don't get this thread. Its super simple. People with less experience look to people with more experience for advice in literally every facet of humanity.
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calling someone's opinions or advice worthless because they're a streamer or a youtuber is no better than treating everything they say as gospel
there are dbd content creators whose views i tend to agree with and those i do not
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You need to think by all that also on their audiences.
I guess, nobody likes to see his favorite YouTuber always losing and if I am honest, I like those YouTubers 3 times more, as the ones, who need to always rant about a game, or a game mechanic/feature to hold their audience in line.
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@ScottJund and @miaasma yea lol like I said, I exaggerated a bit.
Even so, the painfully sweaty attempt of 90% of them to be seen as "masters of DBD" is a laugh. I mean, TrueTalent (God, even the name is cringy) tosses fancy words around ("optimal play", "momentum", "map pressure"... I know these are valid terms but excessive use of it betrays their motives), Otzdarva, who actually is a good player, but such a cocky smartass, Monto, who's at least obnoxious enough to be funny, but feels he has to read up his whole load all the time (thanks buddy, we can read, and know that stuff already anyway), and the list could go on. Just stop.
Or maybe I'm just a hater. Yeah that's probably it.
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where did he write that a high number of hours means someone is automatically correct about something? grow up and stop sniping at people in other threads
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I think their value is spreading awareness of the game's existence.
I also don't think anything else of content creators, i'd rather just play.
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That's true, I wouldn't even have bought the game if not for those awesome Youtubers' videos (Password is: "no commentary"). I don't care much about them either, except when they're brought up as "proof" to support some ridiculous demand for buffs/nerfs/free beers or anything.
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My two favorite replies to this thread are - you need to think by their audiences and content creators. I don't mind watching and learning from individuals who are both experienced and know the game.
What i find really interesting is how people claim they hate toxic people, toxicity in the game, follow and support the most toxic streamers. Not only are many of the above mentioned names some of the most toxic people i've ever seen, they are actually picked by bhvr as content creators and fog whispers. That absolutely astounds me.
I almost died laughing when having this very conversation with a friend and she introduced me to new terminology. She called it "acceptable toxicity. Some of these "content creators" and fog whisperers that have a huge following even put in their stream titles toxic survivor or toxic killer. You watch them and sure enough they are some of the most toxic people in the game starting with their actions in game, t bagging, bulling the killer coinciding with their comments in stream.
Putting that aside I do watch who i or others consider to be the best players at that certain role. Scottjund & Umbra as huntress as an example. I like watching these two and don't see much toxicity in their streams. Yet i also find there are individuals who i consider not only the best player with that killer or survivor but give far better advice then some of the names mentioned above, far better killers and usually 0 toxicity.
They are just far less well known or don't get the luv and support from bhvr or people like they should. Examples of these are pyschoscorpions who i believe just goes by scorpions now, by far the best pig player in the game. Talk about a great, amazing killer from England, he only ever uses whispers, brutal, monitor, and enduring on pig and absolutely destroys most everyone he plays. If you are that awesome and don't need meta or aura perks, he deserves some love. Especially since i never hear him be toxic when i watch.
Another amazing person to watch who has 0 toxicity and gives better advice on every killer then most of the "popular" ones is a guy by the name of devib from australia. 0 toxicity, amazing personality, and loves to teach.
So i got two questions. 1. Why doesn't bhvr ever support these people and 2. Why does bhvr only seem to support people, content creators, etc only on twitch? I never see them supporting anyone on any other platform like mixer, etc.
Sorry so long but there are a lot of great experienced amazing people out there that you never even heard of who are every bit as good, give just as good if not better advice and have 0 to very little toxicity in their channels. They just don't get the love, support or following they deserve because, well i guess they don't have any acceptable levels of toxicity to draw in the people.
they are out their ladies and gentlemen, you just gotta find em.
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depends on what you're doing during those hours and how you process them
there are old school players who think billy is op
hours alone aren't an indication that someone is a reliable source of information, which is why you process what they say and come to your own conclusions rather than accepting or dismissing them based on their platform
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You can judge how "skilled" or "talented" they are, regardless of if they show both their bad and their good games. It's about how they take their loops, how successful their mind games are, how good they are with saves, etc. A lot of YouTubers are also streamers, too, and they're not the only people who have a problem with Nurse being really strong. It's obvious. When you want to stomp a team, you switch to Nurse (if you're good with her and have practice). There's a reason for that. OhTofu's video could have been done in a controlled environment to better demonstrate his point, but he's just pointing out what everyone else (should have) noticed or known. Certain things about the Nurse (mostly add-ons) are too strong.
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@thomasnut toxicity is necessary. A player is either the kind who likes purposefully annoying others, they'll be more loyal to the game if they can do it. Then there's the other kind, who hates trolls, but then again, these players enjoy destroying trolls, or watching someone destroying them.
It adds to the drama. We all hate Ochido, but we need him, because we need someone to hate.
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@George_Soros Tru3, Ozarka, Tofu, they are all very talented players and they all play at the highest possible ranks in the game, I don't see why you are dissing them. Can you produce video evidence of you being better than them?
@DudeDelicious you play, as much as I can tell from your YT like me, at yellow and green ranks and I am afraid the tactics you are pontificating around those ranks do not really work on higher ranks
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Well i can't argue that, it's true enough. I'm mostly referring to the toxicity everyone claims to hate. Here is an example, me. I been playing just over a year now, I use to get toxic. However my toxicity was reactionary. I would "fire back" at people making toxic comments in end game chat, being toxic during the match, etc. I especially hate whom i consider computer rambo's. You know the type - the ones that will do or say anything because they are sitting safely at home behind a computer and not to your face.
It honestly took good friends and players i met to get me to stop this. Yet those same people go and watch, support, follow and recommend to others these very toxic streamers who have so many hours in game, great players sure, but are the most toxic people i have ever seen.
Dude, i hate dropping names but have you ever watched edgarallenbro? The toxicity level of this guy is horrific. Not only is he is one of the most watched dbd players on twitch but this guy is also gets supported by bhvr? It turns my stomach
There is a difference between being annoying for loyalty, destroying trolls, etc. and just being a horrific toxic troll yourself that does every toxic thing imaginable in game and their coinciding in game commentary just because they run in swf squads with other amazing, great players. who as unit can destroy even great killers - then become extremely toxic about it.
I won't drop anymore names but i'd always be rank 1 too if i only ever ran with the very best people in the game and no one else in swf sitting in party chat or discord. It's like playing with lebron james, michael jordon, curry and shaq, then not only boasting about how great you always are at the game but allows you to become super toxic about it at the same time.
Anyway i've made my point. Have a great day.
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While there is some truth to what you say, this thread seems to largely just be fueled by salt more than anything, and I am less likely to take it seriously than the people blindly parroting streamers.
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Pand used to be good, but since he became a whisperer he has been a major tool. Loves to toe the company line. Used to watch his streams, but got to where I couldn't. Complains about campers and tunnelers, but camps and tunnels regularly.
As for YouTube uploads, most of thos content creators stream regularly. No0b3 does all the time in his uploads. Monto is one of the few who does not stream often. Then again, he is a "builds" guy. He puts together builds for people to try out. It makes sense that he uploads versions where the build is represented correctly.
Don't know why this is a topic. Personally, I either watch the stuff for entertainment or for builds. I don't consider any of it representative of the game itself, especially with the ones who take themselves too seriously, like the Irish dude who whines all the time.
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@DBDbuildsYT I didn't say I'm better than them. Some of them are good, some of them are somewhat overrated (by themselves and by their followers), but I don't even hold it against them. Being good at a video game... umm, not exactly an achievement. For me, "talent" is something like being able to fix a washing machine, write a book, cut out your appendix without you dying, and so on. That's why cockiness annoys me. I'm really not about comparing penis sizes with them. And as I said, the other thing is how a fanboy attitude clouds the judgement of people sometimes.
For fairness, I have to say I learned quite a few things from a number of streamers. So I don't REALLY hate them, it's just that I while appreciate their entertainment value, I don't give a flying toss about how "skilled" they are in the game, especially since DBD is RNG for the most part.
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I don't watch many dbd YouTubers.
I have watch dbd videos from Gronkh and Pandorya. 2 YouTubers, that are not toxic from germany and they have dbd just play for fun, a while ago.
And then I have watch one time a tutorial video to the pre patch Legion, to maybe find new ways for me, for doing better my killer "job".and latley I have search for someone a Legion counterplay video.
So, you see @George_Soros , not everyone needs toxic streamers and what my hatred for exploiters or cheaters matters - I have him already since my days of the first versions of Counterstrike - no streamer necesseray for me :D.
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@George_Soros ok I understand your point, still where else do you want to go to understand more about the balance of the game if not watching people with 1000's of hours in the game?
Most of the people we mentioned are at least devotion 5, which means well over 1000 hours in the game and most of them play at the highest possible ranks.
If expertise due to the number of hours in the game, plus undeniable good skill level due to playing consistently at the highest possible ranks in the game is not enough to give an informed opinion where do you find an informed opinion then?
In my normal life I am a doctor, the parameters used to define if I am good at my job are: how long have I worked as a doctor for, and what kind of papers/ patients case file have I produced.
In the world of videogames they do the same.
What else can you use to define an informed opinion about something? I am curious
With that said, some of them need to be more accommodating and less of a guru, on that I stand with you
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but feels he has to read up his whole load all the time
A lot of his viewers are new to the game or could join from watching. I actually joined, myself, watching a streamer play 'cause it looked like a lot of fun. Most people watch streamers/YouTubers for a sense of community or to watch how they do things to try to replicate what they do. Sometimes people watch 'cause they find it amusing or fun. People watch to mimic someone's value far less than you think. Just because someone says something's dumb doesn't mean they'll think it's dumb. If anything, they may bring it up as a way to say "I'm not the only one." All Tofu did was open a can of worms. People have had an issue with the nurse for a while now. They're just not talking about it. It's still not really worth talking about, really. Nothing's going to be done to change her. I highly doubt it. If we're talking about future balance sake, the stronger ones need to be addressed, though. Otherwise, people can just floor survivors with the top tier killers and I highly doubt killers would be against quick and easy games, so it'd be a no brainer. That is if they add measures to help the mid tier to better in higher ranks (such as longer times or extra mandatory objectives to do).
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@thomasnut I don't have much to add there, well said. (Especially about computer rambos)
@Talmeer to my experience, Germans are BY FAR the nicest players ever. I have honestly never seen a German player insulting, harassing, humiliating others. I'm sure there are some, but literally any other country has more trolls than Germany. I love Germans.
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Thanks very much for the kind words, but to be fair, I had one time meet a toxic one.
He started in the endgamechat with his insults, because he thought that I had tunnel him. I can only say to my defence... It's damn hard to tunnel not someone, who was literally always running into your arms :|.
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gotcha and ty.
Here i will do this. If people want to watch some amazing streamers check out the following people -
Devib and bluedamd - two phenomenal twitch streamers from Australia. Devi has an outstanding personality and a killer main who gives great tips n tricks. Blue is hilarious and she has a fantastic kind personality with a great community.
Perilsparks - a mixer streamer who has super high energy, also hilarious, an amazing personality and doesn't get the support he should from bvhr cause he's on mixer.
These 3 are amazing streamers who have 0 toxicity and deserve to be at the top of the dbd food chain.
off to play, have fun.
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"ok I understand your point, still where else do you want to go to understand more about the balance of the game if not watching people with 1000's of hours in the game?"
Reading the views of other players with sufficient experience, right here in this forum or elsewhere. One needs to discard those posts written out of anger of course, but reading half a dozen balance discussions is worth more than listening to a single streamer. And playing, obviously. A few thousand hours, playing both sides, and a little willingness to put aside our own biases is the best way to get the "big picture".
Anyway, I did go a little overboard. Not sure why some streamers, even 100% non toxic ones annoy me so much sometimes.
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Among all the streamers, YouTube's and Fog Whisperers the one I respect the most is definitely Tru3
I don't take everything he says as the holy grail but he's the one that makes some good points about the balance of the game and he's a pretty good player, not the best but he's still pretty good
I generally don't listen to influencers' opinions, it's much better to play and learn how to think for yourself
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He's the one who annoys me the most. Not sure why, nicest guy in the world. Maybe exactly because of that. Either that, or the hat.
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There's very few streamers who actually are unbiased and have a good grasp of the game, I just hate the fact that a lot of these streamers go unnoticed by BHVR and then you have fog whisperers who run exploits and laugh about it for hours. I guess It's more of a number game then finding good people to put a spotlight on.
I've had to stop watching people like ohtofu because of toxic plays, last time i watched him he was in a 4 man swf bullying a lower ranked legion and they all DC'd as soon as someone went down.
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Yeah, he needs a new hat
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@george_soros pretty much how i feel and why i only check out streamers during the ptb.
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Except sometimes there are strings attached to those more experienced content creators opinions which I as well as many are a driving force behind toxicity and the division between the playerbase.
I don't think it's super simple like you put it. This community is super toxic and unpleasant due to the competitive nature and the inability to respect fellow players opinions.
I always hear "it's just a game, why take it so seriously?" One minute and then a little later they're losing their minds about something being OP or the game being broken. These mixed messages and on off frustrations contradict themselves and make everything you are supposed to do seem so toxic and controversial.
It's the labelling and the right or wrong decision mentality which creates most of this games problems.
Also I find it rude when some content creators act as if they are more important than another person. Regardless of how many hours you have.
Too often people think they can say anything they want however controversial and stupid just because they have say 10,000 playing dbd they think they are untouchable.
There are probably more decent content creators like yourself but the amount of times I see one group of viewers attacking another streamer or content creator is alarming and brings shame to the community. When that shame is brought to question there's always the "it's just a game" stance being made. It's a minority but some content creators don't hold themselves accountable for their actions.
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Excuse the typos. Being a mobile forum user is pretty bad rn.
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I actually agree with this thread many of the content creators are super biased and I will admit some of those "godly" content creators are just mediocre players I won't name anyone because people will get triggered
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@George_Soros Yo you leave Monto out of this, as far as i know dude tries his hardest to stay out of any kind of drama and willingly listens to both sides of the community as much as he can. Granted he use to come off as sort of an ass back then, but people change. And with it other people took the place of his former shell.
It sounds like what you're trying to say is that we should take their words with a grain of salt. Then again, i hardly listen to any person that sits on their butt all day playing games and call what they do a "Job" lol.
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Morf, Vinc3Vega and Bahroo(when he can be bothered to play) are the only people I watch. The main thing is they are entertaining. I don't regard anyone though as being an authority on the game just because they say so and when it comes to hours-played, all the hours in the world don't help if someone can't explain the rationale behind their point-of-view, whether I agree with it or not.
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Content creators make what their viewers want to see. Most of their viewers WANT to see them win, they want to see them run a killer for 5 gens, or 4k a stream sniper SWF group. They make what they know will get views. That's just how it works dude.
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@ClogWench possibly why Scott/Vinc3Vega's channel has really taken-off in the last year is that he's different. Whilst definitely way above-average as a player, people aren't watching to see him win as much as they are to see his hijinks, which are not so overtly toxic as Ochido.
When he does his 'Scaredette' plays, contributing virtually nothing the whole match and still gets out with a pip, it's glorious.
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Exactly, similarly with Panda. They all have audiences that expect certain things from them.
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