Does BHVR have a survivor bias, in your opinion?
(preface: I HAVE NEVER PLAYED SURVIVOR in any of the time I've played.. so I have some bias)
I have a little more than 400 hours in the game, been up to rank 2, and have a prestige II wraith from launch. I quit for a couple of years because of the disconnects and overall lack of direction the game had back then (just 3 killers.. things became stale pretty fast)
I've noticed Mori was nerfed so you have to hook first before being able to execute someone.. which i guess is fine. It was a solid way to immediately remove someone who was playing toxic by simply bringing in the green mori and downing them.. and many many other changes that have happened for better or worse over the years
but on to more current things...
Sprint burst is still broken and can be basically used without actually using it, in almost all of my games people are running it and abusing it nonstop.
Enduring stealth nerfed when they said it was "buffed"
Legion and Pig nerfed for no reason ... they were never more than mid tier killers. Freddy rework appears like its also going to be a nerf, but we will see how that goes.
Killers have to blow through millions of bloodpoints to keep playing with yellow addons, even then you will run dry on a lot of the M1 killers who desperately need QOL buffs
and then ... Survivors are getting a very unneeded BP buff for no reason, they just have to go in naked to be good (looking at you depip squad) so long as you understand the basic fundamentals of the game
Killers get nerfed constantly, and survivors just kinda.. slowly become the gods they are...
Comments
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I don't they're survivor biased but I do think they're too scared to make anymore viable killers in fear of causing survivors to jump ship. I think they believe if they make any killer(s) powerful they have the risk of losing a chunk of the survivor player base.
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That survivor bloodpoint buff doesn't make them gain any more BP than killers. It just makes it easier for them to get similar BP. Most survivors will get 10-16k BP per game. Killers will get 20k+ just about every game. This is why survivor BP is getting buffed to MATCH killers. If you'd have played both killer and survivor you'd understand this. You can even see it in post-game. I rarely have a survivor get close to my BP at end game as killer. Survivors also have one more survivor than killers have to get all perks, if you wanna go with this silly us vs them mentality. Sure, some survivors things need nerfs, there are also gameplay changes for both sides that need to be done, but you can't say survivors get no nerfs when MoM was recently nerfed and it was a really good perk at the time.
Enduring is a bug as they've said, as is the Sprint Burst issue. Pig wasn't nerfed if you play her like intended, Legion is actually faster despite what people claim, it's just the gap between his movement when not in FF and while in FF has been closed to make it seem less fast. Overall he moves faster the more you move because his base MS is up.
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Survivors are getting a very unneeded BP buff for no reason, they just have to go in naked to be good (looking at you depip squad) so long as you understand the basic fundamentals of the game
How do you know if you never played survivor?
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Maybe biased isn't the correct way to define them, but yes survivors are certainly more important than killers in the grand scheme of things.
The biggest problem is that they do anything they can to hinder killers and make it difficult to play them.
We even used to have a slightly different and more functional first person camera which was changed with the graphic update
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Yes/
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SB is broken due to a bug. That would be like survivor mains pretending the Legion bug awhile back was intended.
Enduring is bugged.
Legion got a rework. They now how base movement speed and still can use their power to provide pressure, quickly injure fully healed, catch up to people, and find people. With the Freddy rework, you literally don't have to wait anymore to smack people. His power was basically telling people "I'm gonna smack you!" and then attempting to smack. It's like you guys don't know what "nerf" means.
Killer add-ons work differently than survivor items. You can't just stop using your add-on mid-game. It lasts for the game's entirity. Survivors also can't hit the add-on out of your hands and the add-ons work a lot longer than survivor items. Even with that said, I think there should be ways to aquire another add-on or to keep your add-on after game.
The BP buff was in response to slower lobby times due to less survivors wanting to join a lobby just to get 10~17k while playing killer will reliably get you 17~28k. This means less people playing survivor during BP events and less playing survivor while farming BP. Depip squad happened so long ago. Maybe look to someone else? One nice thing about survivor is that there's three other survivors and you may go unnoticed. One bad thing about survivor is that it's a team game. People might farm you. You may be tunneled and killed, sandbagged. Literally had a game earlier where a survivor was going out of her way to block people so that they got hit. Another game where I second staged because the person nearest to me finished the generator and ran away. It's largely unreliably to actually survive and get points, but it's still possible to get out if the killer happens to be focusing someone down. Likewise, you can go without perks, but you take away some things you can do for yourself. Bond shows you where people are. Iron Will quiets your grunts of pain, allowing you to stealth while injured and possibly lose the killer. Playing without perks is by no means "basic" and if you really think it is, you should try playing survivor.
Survivors are getting nerfed just as much if not more. It isn't nearly as bad as it once was.
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YES.
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I think it is more of a lack of understanding of the balance of the game. The game is probably balanced roughly as it should be at ranks 10-15 where top tier killers are played by players that haven't masterered their power and SWFs are less likely to be optimally coordinated.
Where it falls down is at higher ranks where the top tier killers are probably too powerful against a team of solos but in turn will be destroyed by an SWF with comms, toolboxes and instaheals.
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NO.
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It feels like it yes, it really does.
Some of the changes they make don't seem intentional but more of a domino effect of changes that lead to other changes to make things smoother. For example Legion has Deep Wounds that's basically BT so they called that the DW effect and have them function the same way and when Legion's DW was changed BT was changed as well so that it all goes together. That wasn't an intentional planned change for BT it was just something that came with it.
Then there are things like Ghostface's Detection area being increased to 4 meters on each side. No one wanted this and everyone says it has hurt his viability, we all said he was fine and that Survivors needed to practice, me included since I play both. But the Devs ignored us and did it anyway hurting the new Killer and his viability to be top tier so that Survivors could counter him easier. Things like that happen a lot, some of it is legit balance changes take some and give some in other places but then there just feels like a lot of the changes are made so that Killers don't have the power they need, which is the exact opposite of an asymmetrical game, which this is...right?
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If anything, I'd say there was a killer bias. Also, surviving is still less likely than dying according to the stats so I don't see how you could possibly be complaining because you can't insta Mori someone who's just playing the game. Everything one side does is toxic to the other. DS? Toxic. Exhaustion perk? Toxic. Noed? Toxic. M1 Billy? Toxic. It's asinine. The amount of salt has me surprised there isn't a community prescription for Lisinopril. Now there are complaints because BPs are getting more even? Christ, where does it end? Is the only goal making sure nobody else has any fun in a VIDEO GAME?
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No, I think there is beyond too many conflicting opinions.
Nurse is balance / Nurse is op
Gen times are fine / Survivors need second objective
Adrenaline is balanced / Adrenaline needs a nerf
NOED OP / Noed rewards survivor laziness.
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It definitely feels like it.
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There's no intentional bias, it's just a game where balancing for any given skill group will make it feel imbalanced to the others. It's just how it is with assymetrical games, like with how in L4D Versus the Survivors were quite strong and they had to come up with their own set of rules (confogl) for truly competitive purposes. As Gcarrara said DBD also allows players to choose what they want to play, and therefore allows for "maining" which leads to different perspectives than a game where you end up playing both no matter what.
EDIT: Dicussing WHO they should balance around does make sense though, but in the long run I feel that evening the SWF-Solo gap, buffing the killers that need it and going from there will be healthier than just balancing the game around optimal 4man death squads vs 5000 hour ebony mori omegablink nurse though.
Handling bugs/exploits isn't as simple as just removing them immediately, pushing a patch isn't that easy and if something is truly so incredibly wrong that it HAS to be done it might end up rushed and lead to new unforeseen bugs. Not to mention the difference between PC and consoles when it comes to getting new content pushed out to the users.
And on the Moris, Legion getting changed "for no reason" and bloodpoints... really? Mori 1.0 was incredibly silly, and bringing up punishing toxic survivors is no better than saying instaheals are fine because you could be against a nurse or something. Legion could do things that had absolutely no place in the game ("moonwalking"). You can discuss the change they recieved, but there was a very good reason they saw a change that certainly did decrease the lethality of their power. And for bloodpoints... I feel you're not supposed to be able to run the same add-ons every game, and it's not like survivors escape every game either. The Survival point category is really bad atm as well as 99% of the time it's just escaping, self-caring and hitting DS/wiggling out iirc?
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I play both sides in this game, survivors and killers. Though I am better at killer, because it is easier to be better at killer. I don't think survivors are favorited, most of the time. Though, when the options are to buff an annoying yet weak killer, it goes to the survivor. When it is time to nerf a strong survivor ability, it is either a minimal downfall or it takes a year longer than it should.
I'm not refering to MoM. I'm talking more like DS. Yes, the Killer's perks are generally more powerful. But that is because a killer has a quarter of what the survivor team has. Even then, survivors have many more defenses and escape perks. Windows, pallets, SB, DH, DS, flashlights, fire crackers, swapping out with a buddy... Etc etc.
I know that a smart killler willl always best cocky survivors. I always know that talented survivors will best lazy killlers. But really, the need to nerf a killer or not should not be made in week one of public play, or not be based off if a killer is annoying or not.
Legion, when on the recieving end, is a massive annoyance. His Killer Instinct can get you found and put into DW/BT effect, and most see that as a massive setback. But really, even before his massive nerfs, he was weaker than the doctor. The doctor could do everything Legion did, but without even knowing the survivors were there in the first place, and with only a tiny movement speed setback that is minimal. Legion's ability has so many downfalls people ignore, because if they didnt, it would be annoying to face him again. Stun, no scratch marks, messed up hearing, no aura's until you hit somebody, no notifications, if you miss your attack you stun and lose your entire ability. You have to wait for it to recharge entirely before use. Activating lets you move faster and vault... But it hinders every other aspect of being a killer.
This turned into kind of a rant at the end, I apologize. But you can see what I mean. A killer's ability shouldn't be nerfed because their abilitity is annoying. Perks shouldn't be nerfed because they are annoying. But they are. And when they are nerfed because of annoyance, it is almost always in Survivor's favor
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I'm gonna ignore the bias not for any reason except a ton of people already spoke their mind already and I'm not too concerned about that topic right now.
You should play Survivor, trust me when I say you play better as a Killer when you get the Survivor mindset, easier to predict, regardless of hours.
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No they aren't biased but the problem is most players haven't even reached below rank 10 this means that most survivors think Killers are OP because they aren't skilled as people in red ranks which makes it hard for the Devs to balance the game. The game is way more balanced for killers then it used to be though nobody can deny that.
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This is also a very good point. Playing survivor makes you a better killer, just like playing killer makes you a better survivor. Know your enemy and all that.
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Your first bit was right but the rest was trash. Its literally us vs them that's the point ofthegame and they are survivor biased. Look at how long it takes them to ever nerf a survivor vs killers getting nerfed every other day. MoM was literally the new DS bc survivors got a second chance for the killer doing well. Point being they care more about survivors getting an easy win than true balance. I play both sides so I'm pretty unbiased.
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This makes me lol imagine wanting a us vs them mentality balance ain't perfect but if you think that they are still buffing survivors then that is funny they just suck at coding and it nerfs both sides. The "I play both sides" was the biggest meme I have seen recently. Especially after stating you support a us vs them mentality lul.
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A lot of these statements are just full of ######### and shortsighted. Exhaustion perks were nerfed a long time ago. Window vaulting was just ######### 8 ways to Sunday by the last change to fast vaults. Pallet spawns were nerfed. D strike was nerfed so hard it needed buffed the next patch. Mettle of Man was just gutted into uselessness. Legions rework was considered a buff by anyone who didn't abuse his previous incarnation. Freddy's rework is considered a buff since it actually GIVES him a power. Pigs nerf was meant to address an issue of Pig's banking on their traps for endgame, which the devs said isn't what the traps were intended to.
Enduring was changed so that killers couldn't use it to negate D strike, giving them an opportunity to tunnel, which D strike is one of the few perks designed to counter it.
Killers more often than not get preferential treatment from the devs. Saying otherwise isn't a difference of opinion, it's just ignorant.
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There's a difference between an us-vs-them mentality in game (duh, it's a competitive game with winners and losers) and taking it out of the game and into balance discussions. It's not a zero-sum game where a buff to one side automatically comes with a direct nerf to the other, especially not when it's just bloodpoint generation or something.
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I don't think its a side bias, but they do favor/shelter noobs a little to much that it effects the more experienced players.
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I define 'bias' to mean "being in denial, ignorant or attempting to conceal a favour or leaning towards something".
The devs do not need to know they are biased for it to be the case, as long as;
- They dismiss any suggestion of it
- It can be demonstrated to a reasonable degree that they are biased
I think both conditions are met by the history of the game and their way of responding to feedback. I don't necessarily share the same standards with others who believe the devs are biased though.
The strongest case that can be made for it is not any individual change to the game or interaction they have had with the playerbase, or even a comprehensive list of them. It's the differences in standards which the devs apply across the board, throughout the life of the game.
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Yes
80% of their playerbase plays survivor, they don't want to mess with them, that's why they also caved with SWF and they refuse to do anything about it.
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Its a lot easier to start out and be a good killer rather than survivor. Killers dont need any practical skills to win. Just use your eyes.
Survivors perks make going up against good killers when you are a bad survivor doable. You can actually manage. The specific balance of things I wont get into. But my point being if you take away the things that are helping survivors win and giving bad players a chance then they will just stop playing. Then who will you kill?
Youll always need sheep to slaughter.
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Yes. Killers are kept in check with their powers and perks while keys and insta heals remain incredibly powerful.
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I honestly think that they BELIEVE that they aren't biased and are completely blind or indifferent to the deeper problems that cause most of the issues all players have with dbd.
I also think that it might be too late to change anything.
Their design philosophy has painted them into a corner by using perks as bandaid fixes to core problems. If they fix those core problems, many perks and powers will need to be revamped and changed. The cost effectiveness of that kind of change won't be something they'd be willing to do for the players.
But they'll make damn sure the battlepass works perfectly when it comes out and if doesn't, it'll be fixed within days.
/rant
tldr; Yes they are, but they don't know it.
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If you used to play the game since the beginning how can you have missed all the ways it's gotten easier for killers.
1.) Less pallets
2.) Closing infinite loops down
3) Removal of pallet vacuum
4.) Nerf to Vaulting
5.) Exhaustion nerf
6.) MoM nerfed
7.) Buff to killers like Wraith, Trapper, slight buff to Spirit, Huntress and now total Freddy rework
8.) Nerf to gen cooperation
9.)Nerf to Leader
10.) Hatch can be closed now
11.) EGC
12.) Loud/additional survivor sounds including louder footfalls to make them easier to track
I could go on.... And by saying this I'm not saying its Killer-sided. It's no one-sided. They are attempting to balance the game. Right now it is just in the killer's favor more often than not, but the tide may turn.
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And this game is still highly survivor side.
Well, in my opinion, they have not idea what they are doing. Other devs from other games have a team of high level players helping them to balance the game. Look at the Freddie block addons, furtive chase or legion. They do things that they think that will be cool for the game but any player above rank 10 can tell that most of them are BS. More than half of the killer pool is weak and the same goes for the survivor perks.
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Just check the patches everytime they come out. Seems like survivors get a lil stronger, while killers get weaker. The facts don't lie.
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Because whilst you make a list you think is important, someone with the opposing view can make another list which they think is important. What reason would there be to claim your list would be more significant than theirs?
Back in 2017, someone started a thread on the Steam forum listing 'all nerfs to survivor since release' and it was ridiculed for the very-loose definition of 'nerf' that had to be implied to include many of the things on it. In response, another thread was started listing 'all nerfs to killer since release' and a point was made of using the exact same standards established by the original thread. The killer list though dwarfed the survivor one and survivors gave up maintaining their list not long after. The creator of the killer nerf list still updates it.
Depending on your standards, that is quantative and qualitative proof that the game is very much not better for killers. Changes to the game do not happen in a vaccum; a list cherry-picking changes which nominally benefit killers ignore changes that are inconvenient and maybe cancel-out other changes.
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I don't fully blame devs on this. From a lot I've seen on reddit, even supposed killer mains like the things the way they are.
I gave a suggestion on how to stop looping (A perk where the killer smashes the pallet after passsing next to it for a second time on a chase), and it was too OP according to everybody, since when looping passed from being a braindead uncounterable exploit that Devs actually said they wanted to fix to being the only way survivors could survive?
Making killers whose ability is to make survivors lose time, even with the pig, the only killer that actually makes survivors lose time, it is a mediocre ability at best, no killer based on making survivors lose time has been good But then again the community said things are good the way they are, they love making survivors lose 8 seconds of time. Old Freddy? Crap, old doctor? Crap, Pig? She actually gains some time, but still not enough, Legion? Crap (the mending mechanic)
And let's face it, even there they don't want to go further, Pigs traps would be hell better if they actually posed a threat, let's say they only lasted 40 seconds you'd force survivors to stop completing gens unless they wanted their numbers to be reduced stupidly fast.
In a 4 vs 1 game, the 4 players are supposed to be a team if they want to survive , which leads me to:
In a 4 vs 1 game if you want to make it balanced the 4 players should be forced to play as a team if they want to stand a chance against the lone killer. But they don't want to depend on anyone for that, so what if a trap could kill you if you are playing with an #########? most of the time it won't happen, because it would most likely screw them over as well.
But no, survivors want to be in control of everything, which makes the killer powerless against a team that makes no mistakes. they don't want RNG or bad teammates to affect them. but on the other hand as a killer you'll be victim of it a lot of times.
Also they want things to be balanced in a 1 vs 1 scenario. Just look at how many people wanted we are going to live forever the same as BBQ and chilli, or how many survivors perks we got that counter a killer's or even their powers. when in reality the fact that you have 16 perks as survivors should mean that they are the weak ones. But if they had a perk that for example gave survivors the exhausted status, they would cry OP even when the exhaustion perks are quite OP.
They give them tools that are just plain overkill. Toolboxes? Prove thyself? Leader? as if gen repair speed wasn't stupidly fast enough already.
In short they are afraid of making survivors actually be weaker than the killer so they have to rely on each other "We have to work as a team, I need you to survive so that I can survive!" Sorry Dwight, everyone wants to be on their own, unless they team up to be actually OP.
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so many really good points in this thread.. I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices some of this stuff.. as a lot more experienced longer term players are better able to vocalize what I was trying to say.
I still very much enjoy this game, and since I've started back have dropped a couple hundred dollars to BHVR in hopes that they do have the future in mind...
Ill probably try survivor when we get dedicated servers, DCs suck for everybody and I'd rather wait until them i suppose
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Yes.
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You completely missed my point. I'm not saying that the game is Killer-sided. The OP is saying its survivor-sided. I'm pointing out at list of my own to counter his list of changes that have been made that dramatically increased the quality of gameplay for killers. I'm saying that they are attempting to balance the game which means nerfs and buffs on both sides. And many killer mains from when the game first came out have said that it is much easier than it once was. The game will 'NEVER' be balanced because it is only balanced in the personal opinions of the players which will not all agree.
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Nah doubt it considering they Nerf both MOM and DS. Haven't seen those two in awhile. Even then they made Claudette more noticeable with cosmetics. Killers need to stop having gauges for their power.
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Game was, is and always will be unbalanced in favour of survivors. There are 2 reasons for this:
In team of 4 its common thing to find at least potato. Good killers can easly steamroll by abusing weakest link.
We need more survivors than killers.
Game is in the closest to balanced state it ever was and for this i'm grateful. Its swf that breaks the game (you get info you would only get by sacrificing perk slots, huge factor in game about deciding to go for save or rush gens). I think killers should see swf, so they can grab stronger gear. In the same time dodging should result in longer and longer queue times (this would solve both sniping and dodging).
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Well I didn't say you said the game was killer-sided; you missed MY point, which was that people making lists of things, whatever they think, does not mean anything. I should have probably done more though to distinguish that point from my disagreement with your suggestion that the game has got better for killers along the lines of the list you made.
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That's painful, but accurate. Though I would argue that Survivor mains so toxic they only play to win and only consider it a win when they survive are a burden on the game, the counter-arguement would be money, with this $20 game selling DLC like it's on mobile. And also coming to mobile.
Whether it's a direct disdain for the Killer role or just trying to appease an entitled playerbase, though, there is DEFINITELY a Survivor bias in the game.
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Killers get nerfed constantly, and survivors just kinda.. slowly become the gods they are...
This just isn't true at all. Go look at the entire game's history of patch notes and say that. Survs started super overpowered, like actually one of the silliest balances you can imagine in an asymmetrical game, and gradually over the past... I'd say 1 year, they've been nerfed quite a bit more than Killers.
If you think Survs started out weaker and have gradually become as strong as they are now, you probably weren't playing since launch.
The Heal nerf in particular was really big.
We have seen a Killer or two ascend from being a trash Killer to in a much better place. I would argue this happened with Spirit, Hag, and to a much lesser extent, Trapper & Wraith (even Ghostface compared to his PTB). With the exception of Freddy, we have never seen a truly great Killer be nerfed into oblivion (most of them started there).
Yes Pig, Legion, Doctor, Clown have been nerfed for no good reason. But the truth is they weren't exactly very good Killers to start with, these changes didn't destroy them, just made them even slightly less relevant.
Broadly speaking, I don't want to have a discussion with anyone who does not first agree that balance has improved since launch. Those people just don't grasp the facts. It's not worth talking to them.
But to answer your question, I think it's less about bias and more about a lack of understanding their own game. Consider that the devs are actually pretty casual. You can watch them stream, you know. They do things that demonstrate they lack critical knowledge of how to play the game.
Now ask yourself, how does the game balance look at 1) the lowest level of play, 2) the middle level of play, and 3) the high level of play?
1) Killer favored 2) highly unpredictable and 3) Surv favored, in that order.
That's the answer to your question. Where they're standing, Killers look rather strong. They don't know what it's like at high levels. They hear about it, but they don't know first-hand. They don't know the specific reasons.
It's also that they have no interest in balancing around high level play. They know where their bread is buttered. If you want to give them no benefit of the doubt, there's a vested interest in being Surv-biased since there's a 4:1 ratio in any game. If there will be a bias for selfish reasons, it'd be due to that.
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