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Evidently Very Controversial. Should Killers Be Able to See Survivors in Lobby?
EDIT: Apologies for the fact that the post title no longer accurately reflects the point it's making, but I felt it would be too confusing to change it.
So this was a bit of a hot topic in this discussion
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/84270/weaponizing-dcs-a-long-term-worry#latest
and it got me thinking, maybe we ought to talk about whether it's fair for killers to be able to see survivors in the lobby and adapt their loadout make decisions accordingly. Using this information, killers are able to decide whether they want to dodge the lobby or not. All survivors have to work with is the killer's ping, which is why it's not uncommon for a survivor to get into a match, find out the killer and their build, and, being now equipped with a similar level of information to what the killer had back in the lobby, decide they don't want to play the game and disconnects.
Let me be clear: I am not condoning dodging games in any way. I think it's unsportsmanlike, and I acknowledge there is a huge difference in terms of consequences for other players between lobby dodging and dc'ing.
But there's a reason why they do it, and perhaps that reason should be addressed.
It seems fair to me that survivors and killers receive the same amount of information from the start. Allowing survivors the same amount of information the killer already has (being able to see the killer in the lobby, essentially) would most likely reduce dcs, since survivors, like killers, would just dodge a lobby they don't like the look of instead (which is not ideal but less harmful than disconnecting ingame). However, and I'm going to put this bit in bold so no one goes off on me for suggesting something so stupid, I agree that that is a ludicrous idea and hardly worth suggesting - so I'm not suggesting it.
What I am suggesting is that perhaps it would be beneficial if the survivors were also hidden from the killer in the lobby. I'm aware it wouldn't do anything to reduce dc's, but it would even out the dodging playing field a bit more so that no one could justify ingame dcs by claiming that they were only doing the survivor equivalent of a killer lobby dodge - which is not an excuse by any means, but I think it is a fair point to be made. If both parties have the same information to begin with, the implicit agreement between them when beginning a game, in my opinion, is more solidly grounded.
EDIT: Leaving that last part in for context, but editing the OP since apparently no one bothers to read the comments on these things anymore.
Upon further discussion in the thread below, I have concluded that although hiding at least some information in the pregame lobby may or may not be beneficial, the concern is not with killers seeing the survivor lineup and preparing accordingly, but with seeing the lineup and dodging the lobby without penalty because they don't want to go against that build. If survivors later reach the same conclusion about the killer based on their build, they have to DC from the game and screw everyone else over, risking a ban at the same time.
The idea I'm proposing now is one which would come into effect once ping (the only legitimate reason to dodge a lobby) is no longer an issue. In this scenario, lobby dodgers and DCers would both be punished by being banned from queuing for a certain amount of time, say 60 seconds to start with, and then the time would increase if they do it more often within a certain time period (24 hours, say). So if you continually dodge lobbies or DC, you would eventually be unable to join the queue again for up to an hour or two.
Additionally, a harsher penalty (risk of ban, similar to DC rules now) would be in place for those whose DC screws other people over significantly. For killers, this means any time after the first minute or so of gameplay, since the game depends on their presence, and them leaving halfway through or towards the end of a game is unfair and a huge waste of time for survivors. For survivors, they would be penalised any time they DC while on a hook, on the ground, or being carried, because these situations (a) are particularly unfair to the killer and (b) tend to be done for strategic reasons to give the team a leg-up or ruin a killer's slugging strategy, which is likewise unfair.
So feel free to comment on these ideas, I'm sure there's stuff I haven't considered, but please, no one wants to read a dozen different people saying the exact same thing about killers needing to prepare in the lobby. It has been said, and understood. No need to beat a dead horse. Let's talk about something new and interesting instead.
Comments
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While dodging lobbies is annoying, the point of killers seeing survivors is so they can prepare as much as possible for the match. Killer should have a upper hand in preparation even if it's for just their items. Killers that don't want to deal with a possible SWF or a lot of toolboxes will probably dodge. Not what it was meant to be, but if the option is there, people will use it. However, killers shouldn't loose that preparation because of dodging.
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@thekiller490490 Yeah, I can see how it's a good thing in terms of balance for the killer to be able to prepare for the match, but at the same time it doesn't seem fair that killers are able to dodge SWF or toolboxes or just generally builds they don't want to play against, but because survivors don't have that same information early on it's a bannable offence for them to dodge moris and iridescent hatchets and whatever other builds they might not want to play against.
Perhaps the solution is just to implement a new punishment system for lobby dodging and dcs, though obviously not until after dedicated servers have been figured out and ping is no longer an issue. I understand there are good reasons for punishing dcs so heavily, but I feel like maybe "dodge" dcs should be treated more like lobby dodges. Maybe if you dodge a lobby or dc during loading or during the first 1-2 minutes of a match, you get punished by not being able to queue again for a certain amount of time, but dc'ing after the last generator is powered (for either killers or survivors), or when you're hooked, carried or downed (for survivors), carries a heavier, bannable penalty. Obviously there would have to be adjustments to the ranking system to ensure the other players don't lose pips in that case. I don't know, I'm sure it has a lot of flaws. Just the first idea that came to mind.
Thanks for responding politely and reasonably instead of getting triggered, I feared the worst for this thread so I appreciate it :)
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You do realize the only ones complaining about that are the SWF groups that get dodged cause swfs are almost 90% toxic and the 10% gets ######### on for it
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@TrueKn1ghtmar3 I did not realise that, mostly because there was no real evidence for it. With all respect, that seems like an assumption you're making. However, I can certainly agree that toxic SWFs give all the others a bad name. But at the same time, a lot of killers tend to assume that a team of solo survivors who happen to be well-coordinated must be SWF, especially if at least one of them is toxic, when that's actually not the case far more often than most people would think.
Honestly, I think killers dodging SWF is just as unsportsmanlike as survivors dodging powerful or unfun killers, which is the point a lot of those complaining was trying to make, and it's a perfectly valid one. Obviously that's discounting a lot of the other issues with dc'ing ingame, which is why I made this thread, to brainstorm ways to bridge that gap.
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The only thing that can change that is if the survivors and killer queue up separately load in then the killer gets their time to strategize but that is too clunky and would never work in of itself
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Th is is not true. A few months back dodging was so bad I would get maybe 1 in 4 lobbies dodged, and I play solo.
HOWEVER, it is true though that today the dodging is not so bad as it used to be. The recent balacning changes to the game since the Ghost Face patch probably made killers a lot happier than they used to be.
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The primary benefit of seeing people in the lobby is that things like Franklins can be used such that it will always have a good benefit, and that Killers that get countered by items such as the Hag can avoid using those Killers when it would get them screwed over.
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Franklins would need a buff to be useful on Survivors without items somehow, and both Hag and Wraith would need to be less effected by Flashlights.
If both of those things were to happen then this could be done. Should? Maybe not. But it definitely COULD be done without breaking anything besides the above (which have straight forward solutions)
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The big issue here, is that often it's hard to even use an item because the killer will just bring Franklin's to screw you over. The last three times I brought a map into the lobby the Killer had Franklin's on (not sure why everyone's so afraid of Rainbow Map and Crystal Bead?)
If you bring a key get ready to get tunneled all game on top of the Franklin's.
This is not fair, nor good game design. It just discourages survivors from using items.
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Personally I think the system is fine as it is. Killers are the ones that benefit the most from the information given, however sparse it might be; items and possible perk implications are small, but it's something.
However, I wouldn't be opposed to Survivors being able to see who the Killer is, at least after it's too late to make any changes. Like, perhaps having their shadow cast a silhouette over the campfire during the last 3 seconds of countdown to give newer players a rough idea and more experienced players knowledge of who it is before seeing them in game. I don't think that would change the dynamic too drastically, since there's quite a lot of Killers who already have their own interface spoilers as it is.
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My main problem with the lack of information is this, what survivor what perks, will they DC, how about offerings we "censored survivors so killers don't have info why not make all offerings secret to prevent DCs Or ping, I see a survivor with 300+ ping I don't know who the survivor is so I "dodge" and No one plays because I go into "another" lobby see 300+ ping but I don't want to play against super laggy. Etc.
I would like to see survivors get some way to have info on each other build, but if we buff survivors so the killer doesn't know what survivors are doing we have to buff killer offerings so survivors can't decide, or secret time to "dodge".
Tl;Dr Buff survivors pregame screen, buff killers offerings to all be secret.
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@NuclearBurrito As I've said, I understand the benefits of allowing killers to adapt their loadout, and I don't really have a problem with that. But adapting is different to just dodging the lobby, and I feel that if killers can leave just because they decide they don't want to play against a particular build, it's not fair for survivors to not have that same chance. There may be a solution I haven't thought of yet, but the only ones I have brought up so far are that neither killers nor survivors get punished for the above (which is a bad idea considering other problems with dcs), or they receive the same amount of information about each other in the pregame lobby - that is, none (which is also a bad idea considering what you've mentioned), or they both get punished equally somehow, which is what I'm currently leaning towards.
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Yeah, that's a good point. It goes both ways.
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@twentybearasses Yeah, I don't have a problem with them getting that information in advance and being able to adapt to it, or even choose not to play against it. But I do think it's a problem that by the time survivors get that information (killer power/perk implications) it's too late for them to make that decision without being penalised.
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@Objectively_speaking So essentially what you're suggesting is that killers be unable to see survivors pregame, but survivors should also not be able to see killer offerings so they can't preemptively dodge a mori? Sounds fair, that's certainly one solution.
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It should show you the character and the item. It shouldn't show names or profiles.
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I'm not contesting this.
All I'm doing is pointing out what other changes would need to be made for it to work properly.
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I definitely think they should not see the usernames, it allows them to either avoid you or tunnel you excessively. This is especially true on PS4 red rank, I run into the same Killers a lot and sometimes if they perceive you as toxic AKA you're just playing normally and Escape, they tunnel you and Camp you every single match and that's not fun.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to come across like I was challenging you, I was mainly just continuing the discussion. That said, I realise I didn't quite understand your earlier point - am I correct in my current understanding that what you're saying is if killers weren't able to adapt their loadouts, there would need to be changes made to perks like FD which are rendered completely useless with certain survivor builds (or lack thereof)?
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Correct.
It's perfectly doable, but it's important to keep in mind stuff like that.
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It would be nice to dodge going against Billy since I see him every damn game. But I can't because I don't have that information. Like I'm at a point where I'm ok with getting stomped by a nurse if I can just get one. I also think killers shouldn't be able to see survivor names. It'll be helpful with dodging and what's that thing called where people raid certain streamers lobbies? I don't know what it's called but that.
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@Cardgrey It's not really about ping. Both survivors and killers have that information from the get-go, and the option to dodge the lobby on that basis, so that's a non-issue. The problem is that killers are able to dodge lobbies when they come up against a build (that is, the survivor's item, and their appearance, which usually gives some information about their playstyle and possible perks) that they don't feel like playing against, when survivors simply don't have that luxury.
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I personally think killers should have the ability to see what the survivors are bringing since they have the disadvantage being 4v1 against SWF teams. I've also said from the beginning that solo survivor games should not be as transparent because it's such a huge difference. If it's solo survivors it should be different. SWF teams have such an advantage I feel it should be different game modes. The number of perks SWF makes pointless is ridiculous, being able to tell what direction the killer went, who the killer is, where they are, where totems they saw are, whether they are camping, who's going for the save.....I don't even feel bad losing to SWF teams because it's expected and the fact that there's no communication between survivors as a default shows how the game was meant to be played in my opinion. Either make separate game modes or buff killers and allow survivors to communicate is my opinion
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About the second part, the silhouette, that screws over jumpscare/stealth Killers. Getting a first jump on an unaware Survivor can sometimes be crucial. If its just for newer players, then they already have something called "Loading Screen Tips" to give them a rough idea of what to expect. And expecting new players to recognise a silhouette to make proper use of that information, Im not so sure about that.
You are also giving up an important factor that compliments one of the main appeals of the game; uncertainty. The thrill of not knowing what you are facing until there is a clear indicator or seeing the Killer first hand is extremely valuable, even for myself, who has years worth of playtime.
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@PigNRun I agree, which is why I think that allowing survivors to see who the killer is in advance is a bad idea. At this point I'm thinking that it would be best to just implement a better system for punishing people who dodge on the basis of their opponent's build, killers and survivors alike.
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Like i said in another post, survivors should be able to see the loadout of other survivors in the lobby to be able to get a good team going.
Survivors shouldn't be able to see the killer. That would make SWF even more op than it is atm.
Trapper? Let's get a full sabo team going.
Wraith? How bout OoO.
Nurse? four P3 Blendettes let's go.
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So I just started on the PC, Rank 16 Killer all I have a is a level 35 Leatherface and level 1 everyone else. Several times today being able to see the Survivors has either saved my ass or alerted me to what was going to happen so the defeat wasn't that bad. I have been facing Purples for 3 days now as a starting out Killer and not being able to see Survivors to see if they are SWF or if they have 1k hours would really hurt my chances. I had a douche Rank 5 gloat that they escaped from a Rank 16, nothing to be proud of but they shouldn't have been in my game. Their profile was private so I couldn't see their hours or friends list and that is the equivalent of not seeing Survivors.
Also, if you can't see Survivors then you never know when is a good time to bring in Franklin's, that's kind of a perk that needs info to use.
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Not correct. I've waited ten mins to get in a lobby, everyone is random, killer doesn't like the look of the claudette, or 2 tool.boxes, or a key, or a map, lobby dodge. Then I have to wait for another lobby. Its sorry, and it's not even uncommon. I used to dodge swf only if they were the 4 blendette squad, because this game isn't dead by camouflage, but since they brightened her up she can be seen now and I dont even dodge that.
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Franklin and overwhelming presence skrewing over survivors? Well, duh theyre made to "somewhat" counter items. And are useless in any other scenario because they dont have such effects.
Survivor item related perks enable their actions without items ans boost the effiency of using items, or simply allow you to getbetter items in chests, which slso can contain useable itmes.
Actually, survivors having items and being able to bring them from the lobby into the game instead of them being in-trial random objects only is the only reason killers can see survivors in a lobby.
Well, maybe some skin combinations of survivor might reveal a possible skill level of the survs.
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Personally I think names/ability to check profiles should be hidden until the match starts. Most people I've come across who admit to lobby dodging in either direction (usually streamers, lets be honest) have a list of names that they use to avoid people who have ever not played the exact way they want (Another reason I'm grateful for dedicated servers. MLGA and all the toxicity it brings will die).
Seeing a survivors cosmetic choices and held item isn't really that big a deal though. At worst the killer will bring franklins if they see one to many toolboxes and lets be real here, Franklins is a waste of a slot unless A: The survs brought an ultra rare and are gonna obsess over having it or B: You're playing Hag/Trapper and trapping the items. And honestly usually those two things roll into each other.
Edit: Rephrased something because I didn't like my word choice (MLGA related)
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Thank you for bringing this up because I was a part of that other discussion.
And I want to make it clear that I am in no way, advocating for survivors being to DC in a match or encouraging it.
My only comment was that I "understand" it because sometimes it's based on a decision killers get to make before the match even starts. Disconnecting in a loading screen because "Nah, I don't feel like playing against a Mori" is in my opinion the exact same as "disconnecting" from a lobby because "Nah, I don't feel like playing against a (fill in the blank)."
I would even take it like half a step further and say that people who DC within like the first minute of the game are making kind of the same decision. Like "Nah, I'm not playing against Iri heads." They made the decision to leave the game as soon as they were given the info.
AGAIN, not encouraging it. I'm just making a comparison.
Now, with that being said, I definitely don't think survivors should be able to see the killer before the match starts. That would ruin stealth killers more than anyone.
What could be done however is:
- Removing survivor names to prevent killers from being toxic to players they've played before.
- Alternatively, ADD the killer name to the lobby so survivors can check out their profile. (I once checked a killer's profile post game to find a list of things like "Will DC if Ruin is broken before 1st hook. Will face camp if you loop me for more than 30 seconds. Face camp if you have a key, etc. Had I known that before the match, I would lobby dodge them)
- This is a little wacky, but if there was a way to not show any items in the lobby, and when it gets to the offering screen, the game says "X amount of survivors brought items, would you like to equip Franklin's Demise?" and give the killer time to switch it out for another equipped perk if they choose to do so at that time.(To do that, it would have to become a base perk and not a teachable though)
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What do you mean Im not correct, also everything after those two words had nothing to do with what I've said, but you could have miss interpreted what I had typed, here lets give a step by step analysis of what i said for clarification.
1.) You (as a survivor) hit join game now you are thrown in a lobby of 3 other survivors where you set your items up etc. And ready up
2.) I (as killer) hit join game (of course I need my offering ready by this point) Your group of four are thrown into my lobby (which is now considered part of the match at this point thus any disconnect are actual proper DC) I then have a few seconds to get my build ready while we load into the match (of course survivors would have a loading screen at this point but I as the killer can see what survivors I'm facing [because lore])
I then stated that such a system is too clunky and would not work now tell me where I am not correct?
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As I said in the OP, I agree that survivors shouldn't be able to see killers in advance for the same reasons you mentioned, but those are some good suggestions. Perhaps names, profiles and appearances could be hidden (shrouded in fog or something) but there could be some indicator to show if a survivor has an item equipped, but not what the item is.
Really, the only legitimate reason to dodge a lobby on either side is for ping reasons. Once that's no longer an issue, I think it would be cool to just punish people for for lobby dodging and dc'ing by not allowing them to rejoin the queue. Disconnecting would always have a queue penalty, but would only contribute towards the ban threshold if (a) the killer dcs any time after the first minute of the game has passed (since the match is dependent on their presence, and one minute is enough time to decide they don't want to play this match without wasting too much of the survivors' time), (b) the dc'er is on the ground, being carried, or on a hook (since these are the main times when people dc for unsportsmanlike reasons).
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This right here.
Private/friends only profiles are common anyway among all sorts of players, and partially private profiles that hide certain elements like playtime and/or friends list makes it even more common if we include that. After the improvement to Steam's privacy options that's a while ago now it's so common that anyone that dodge any degree of private profile will spend the vast majority of their time in the lobby anyway.
No matter what "benefits" profile-checking allows for it also makes it possible to have cringy grudges with people which shouldn't be a thing.
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I know multiple players on Xbox that have private profiles and change their GT regularly purely because everyone knows everyone and people dodge, or worse play super toxic and tunnel/camp specific survivors.
If you could just see the character and item that's all you need as killer to make decisions (really just the item, but sometimes the character can give it away).
Also lock survivors into their builds at 10 seconds to stop last second switching. I hate that BS.
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I’ve said this, hundreds of times.
Seeing Survivors in the lobby is completely fine. Seeing Survivors names, and having such easy access to their profiles is not fine.
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Franklin's and Shadowborn almost require some pre game information as well SWFs.
Because we don't have a practice mode it would be hell to go into a game vs a 3-4 men SWF with a unfamiliar killer.
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I personally don't think they should be able to see survivors loading in. Sure you can say but then we'd never know when to use Franklin's! Well I never know if there is a Doctor to use calm spirit. Or if it's a stealth killer and I should bring Spine Chill. Or how About a spirit, I don't normally run Iron Will, just like I don't normally run Franklin's Demise, but if I knew I was facing a spirit I certainly would use it. Maybe it's a trapper, there are some anti-trapper perks I could run to combat that killer specifically. That are other wise completely useless. Maybe if I knew it was a hag I'd bring urban evasion and a flash light.
All in all no I don't think the killers or survivors should be able to see each other. Or they both should be able to see each other, though that would hurt stealth killers more than anything else knowing that it's Mikey, or Ghosty Boy, and survivors are already on high alert.
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I agree with most of what you're saying, and honestly I was going to make the same comparison myself, but upon reflection it's not an entirely fair comparison to make. Franklin's Demise is literally completely useless if no one brings an item, whereas there is not a single survivor perk that is dependent on the killer's build to function at all. Calm Spirit, Spine Chill, Slippery Meat, etc. are greatly reduced in their effectiveness if you're not playing against specific killers, but they do still have some functionality.
I agree that it sucks from the survivor perspective for killers to be able to adjust their loadout according to what they see in the lobby, but at the same time I can kind of understand why it's a thing.
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I mean I guess it is completely useless, but to be fair about 90% of games have at least one item in it, and if they don't survivors generally go item hunting, or find a chest at some point. So it's got a better chance at being far more useful than say Calm Spirit, or Slippery Meat.
Killers just usually don't run Franklin's unless they see keys, maps, or if 3 or more people have an item. Which discourages survivors from attempting to bring them, or forces them to try and do like last second placing of items. I personally run Franklin's when the above conditions are met. I still don't think I should be able to see it.
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Yeah, that's fair. That's why I feel like a good compromise would be to allow killers less information, but not none. For example, they can see that certain survivors have items, but not which items they have. And I also don't think they should be able to see the survivors themselves, because similarly to how survivors can get into a match and make educated guesses about the killer's loadout based on the type of killer ("Ah, it's a Nurse, probably has BBQ and Nurse's Calling, maybe Ruin") killers can look at survivors in the lobby and make similar guesses ("Nea has a flashlight and is wearing brightly coloured clothes, probably planning to loop and be toxic, most likely has DStrike and Balanced Landing") and adjust their build accordingly.
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To be honest now that I think about it, Franklin's Demise potentially always has a use, because there will always be boxes on the map. It's like a security blanket if you are worried imo. I'd like it if the killer didn't see survivors items. I don't even mind if they can't see survivors all together. But I don't think it's really that big of a deal if they can see survivors other than being able to tell if it's a 3 or 4 man swf. Even if they are wearing a bright outfit and you can't see the item, it's not like you'll be able to tell what perks they are running at a glance. They could just be....being fashionable. lol
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Removing the Killers ability to see survivor items/characters before the match would weaken them a decent amount. Seeing the characters let Killers anticipate perks, and items let us see if the survivors are going for a specific strategy. If a killer wasn't able to prepare, the survival rate would go up a decent number.
To everyone who dodges, you're immature and will never get good at the game until you stop doing so. You have 55 seconds to prepare, and a good killer uses that time to change their build; For SWF, Mori's (I don't use these due to my principals, but if its in the game, you can use it), Make your choice, Infectious Fright, BBQ, choosing even one of these perks can help against SWF, punishing altruism and giving you information on where others Survivors are.
Franklins literally counters items. Either bring it, or deal with the consequences.
TL;DR
Killers not being able to see survivors is quite the nerf. With dedicated servers coming, you won't be able to tell if you're against SWF groups, which has more implications than just dodging. People who dodge are just immature, you know they'll just DC in game anyways, wasting even more of the Survivors time.
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Lol, could be, but it's mostly about evening the playing field, so that killers don't have access to too much information in advance. Adapting builds is a bit annoying, but fine, but the more information they have the more likely they are to dodge.
Yeah, I understand that it could be a significant disadvantage for killers, which is why I'm leaning more towards the idea of punishing dodgers in a similar way to dc'ers.
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I'd really like a longer timer before you can reque when you dodge as killer. It's 15 seconds right now. Make it 15 seconds per survivor in your lobby when you dodge (maxing it out at a minute time out for dodging them and wasting their time)
I'd also like a similar but longer thing attached to all D/Ces (a handful of minutes. About the time it takes to actually load up the game and open a lobby from scratch. this way crashes are unaffected, to barely effected but ragequitters have to cool off before even considering another match)
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I would like to see an exponentially increasing timer in both cases. 1 minute to requeue the first time. 2 minutes the second time. 5 the third. Then 10, 20, 30, 45, 60, etc. Not only does it punish bad sportsmanship, but it specifically punishes consistent bad sportsmanship.
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In that case there'd need to be a decay. Maybe every Rank Reset it goes back to zero. Consistent bad sportsmanship will give you less games the longer it goes on. (I'm mostly worried about keeping the timer forever on people who actually did crash or something and then they crash again a month later and after about a year of one crash a month their timer is ridiculously long. Obviously this is a hypothetical, if you crash this much you might need to fix your pc/console)
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The difference between killers having a chance to see a lobby and dodge versus survivors seeing a killer and dodging is the game caters to survivors right now.... there’s no reason for survivors to want to dodge just because a certain killer is used.
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Of course, sorry I should have specified that I was talking about within a period of 24 hours or so.
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