Devs, are you gonna ignore Legion's problems for the next 6 months?

The slower vaulting speed is not really what allows that but the fact that Legion flies forward like 16billion miles after vaulting

And there's more to do at loops then just vault back. You can fake the vault back and hope the Legion player swings which they might do since they expect you to try that move. You can also keep going around the loop and after breaking LOS deviate slightly from the standard loop route. Since FF only lasts for 10s and has zero tolerance for mistakes the Legion player really can't afford the luxury to observe you carefully, they have to close the gap asap. If you break los the lack of scratch marks allow you to run away and bank on the Legion player assuming you are still looping that place.

But sometimes even just continuing going around is enough to outlast FF. The slow vaulting speed and the huge forward momentum after vaulting means that any distance he gains on you can easily be nullified with optimal wall hugging.

From this post: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/684948/#Comment_684948

The way I read it: You think the old power, with Deep Wound damage, would have been fine if the timer didn't tick down while near the killer (or with any other change that removes the exploit).

"Any killer" refers to any killer player. Only Legion with the old power can't be allowed to see blood ever, because then it becomes impossible to escape if the killer has Bloodhound. Same for Predator and Stridor with scratch marks and sounds, respectively.

I am only talking about the old power, where you can reduce the Deep Wound timer with Feral Frenzy attacks.

You are camera locked during the vault. Slower vault means longer camera lock which means survivors have an easier time to get away.

There is no problem.

Hi Talmeer, I want a Legion rework as m change as you, so please avoid bring into the discussions the old legion.

The old legion is gone, too many things went wrong with that killer and if you bring the old legion gin into a conversation you are actually hurting the chances of a rework.

Please forget the old legion and let's all unite to get a decent, fun and viable new legion.

The first step is to get the steaming pile of garbage, aka current legion, changed

Eh I agree with your loss of interest, unfortunately the old legion wronged survivors and survivors hold the power in dbd.

One killer, who was easy to beat by gen rushing, dared to xhallenge their looping game and they lobbied until legion was no more.

The only hope is for legion to move away from that type of fame and fly under the radar as an average mid tier killer, then we can have something which won't be lobbied into the pile of trash that we have atm.

Any good legion would be lobbied once again.

Killers opinions do not really count

Well under this friends was also 1 survivor^^ (he was already less interested in dbd and then the devs decided to take another variety from the m1 killers out - that was the moment for him).

The Legion haters will always be here and they will cry about every positive change that happens to the Legion. No matter if it makes the Legion stronger, or if those changes are just "quality of live", or fun changes and that means, we can't take any hindsight on them.

But as you, I am also afraid of a strong coming back of the Legion. That is why I always see already heaven falling when somebody brings addon changes in :/.

I could throw now at you some links with videos to counterplay to the old Legion, but we both know that it would be a waste of time and I understand it.

Those "op Legion videos" don't make you thinking and people can still stay in their comfort zone^^.

The survivor friend of mine had did counterplay. Thinking back, maybe I should have made with him a tutorial video, but I guess it would struggle with the same problem like any other tutorial video out there - it would not let their watchers stay in their comfort zone.

And now you have three wounded survivors instead of three healthy survivors, in a short amount of time.

That is all still there.

He is.

Bigger terror radius means it's easier to find people. The distance you can cover with the current version is the same or even bigger than with the old one. For you to be unable to hit multiple survivors with your power requires all survivors to run in different directions, and while they are doing this they are not on gens which is also good.

If the only way those people can have fun is by playing something that makes every other player miserable because of how uninteractive and monotone it is then the game is better off without them. Emphasis on "THE ONLY WAY". I am not talking about people who think old Legion was fun, I am talking about people who can LITERALLY only have fun in the game by playing old Legion and only those people. The old gameplay was not healthy for the game and had to go. Players who can only have fun at the expense of other players are not something any online game needs.

There were also a lot more people saying that Legion is not fun to play against than there are saying that the current version is not fun.

No, it's really not. Removing a perfectly fine power from the game and replacing it with something new is a colossal waste of development time. It makes much more sense to keep current Legion and give whatever new power people think they should have to a new killer.

Old Legion had to go because the power was unhealthy for the game. Old Freddy had to go for the same reason. New Legion does not have that problem and replacing the power makes no sense.

I'm not even arguing with this. It just seems to me that you don't play legion.

How am I supposed to discuss with a "He is" or "That is all still there".

All that he is saying is what is good on paper and not on practice. He just doesn't know what he is saying at all, but ok.

Okay. Let me be absolutely crystal clear since you don't seem to get it:

I do not not want old Deep Wounds back. I just want the Feral Frenzy, the thing that makes you run and vault faster then normal, to be buffed. Deep Wounds is the part of the power I don't want ever touched again as it is a bad component of the power and deserved to be nerfed.

You also didn't address a lot of my points, so don't know what you're doing there.

"The way I read it: You think the old power, with Deep Wound damage, would have been fine if the timer didn't tick down while near the killer (or with any other change that removes the exploit)."

Except I didn't say or (to me at least) imply I wanted Deep Wounds to go back to the way it was in any form. I merely wanted the Feral Frenzy to be buffed.

"'Any killer' refers to any killer player. Only Legion with the old power can't be allowed to see blood ever, because then it becomes impossible to escape if the killer has Bloodhound. Same for Predator and Stridor with scratch marks and sounds, respectively.

I am only talking about the old power, where you can reduce the Deep Wound timer with Feral Frenzy attacks."

With the right perks it's near impossible to escape any killer (Trapper, Wraith, Hillbilly, Nurse, etc) with those perks. Legion isn't any different in that sense. Besides, in case you haven't heard, they removed the blood seeing in this current form of Legion while they are in Feral Frenzy and during the fatigue.

And I wasn't talking about the old power. I don't care about Deep Wounds. I care about Feral Frenzy, cause that was when I had the most fun by being a speedy boy.

I don't even personally play Legion, let alone Killer, and it made me really sad to see what's become of them. I fell in love with their concept, their power, their edge (lool) and I do remember being somewhat to very annoyed about the moonwalking exploit, but I didn't expect the power to be basically useless as far as downing people.

I imagined they would need to smack you, but still needed 4 hits in order to down you. That - or they would need to travel to another player(s) before returning to their original target and smack another hit or two before downing them. I thought *that* was why they extended the Frenzy timer, but nope ;-;

I still love Legion, but now I probably enjoy them because they're weak as hell LOL. Honestly, at some points they're just plain boring. I wanna see what the devs can do in the future with these cuties. Rip our babies.

This is the exact quote:

"[t]he Deep Wounds exploit [...] should've been nerfed and just left like that."

What do you mean by this if not "The problem with old Deep Wounds was the exploit and when that is removed it can be left like it is"?

I ignored most of your comments because I am specifically talking about the old version of Feral Frenzy where you can deal damage to the Deep Wound timer. I did so because I was, and still am, under the impression that in your original post, which I have quoted above in this post, you claim that the old power is fine if only the exploit was removed. I am not talking about the current power at all, which means none of the points I ignored are relevant to my arguments.

But with the old power, where you can deal damage to the Deep Wounder, it is not nearly impossible, it is literally impossible.

And I have never claimed otherwise. In the quote you referring to I have mentioned twice that I am talking about the old power, the pre-rework Legion. Not the current version where you cannot deal damage to the Deep Wound timer without an add-on, the one that is currently playable in the game.

Then let's restart the discussion:

What changes to the current version of Legion, the one playable in the game right now, would you like to see?

I do not have videos. I will concede the point that I can not prove the viability. I want to add that I feel it is unfair to expect a single user to prove the strength of a killer on the spot, as the most immediate way I can think of would be a large quantity of videos as there are no killer-specific stats available. That however is one me as I was the one making the claim that Legion is viable.

There is however an indication that supports my argument:

This implies that the developers have been monitoring Legion and do not feel an immediate need to make changes but rather only in the future. As the nature of those changes is not known it does not make sense to speculate what is going to be changed exactly.

And please feel free to address the numerous other arguments I have made that you have conveniently ignored to instead go for personal attacks.

There's no need to address any arguments if you don't know precisely the experience of playing legion at high ranks.

Legion doesn't work, their power is completely useless, survivors can repair gens in your face when they have deep wound knowing that they will have a 4 seconds stun to run away, that's basically a free ds since ds loses 0.7 seconds of the animation so it's 4.3 vs 4 seconds. Nothing works on legion, a non lethal power combined with a slow vault.

Mending is a stupid mechanic, nobody likes to mend, it is a useless exercise in wasting time for nothing.

Legion needs to be rebuilt from scratch, and nobody who tries legion at high ranks can succeed with the killer consistently because legion is worse than trapper and probably even worse than wraith.

It's a pile of garbage and unless you can can prove your point with data, all the theory of the world won't help this argument.

Not I trust the devs data, since in their opinion it was OK to render legion a pile of junk.

These devs have shown time and time again to not understand high level play.

Because they simply do not play the game at high ranks.

Winning with legion at high ranks is not a merit, is simply survivors playing like potatoes.

This killer is utterly indefensible and I don't know about your job, but in most jobs if you fix something and you break it, you are expected to fix it again and not wait until its gone rotten.

Devs mentioned on a stream that they will most likely change some of legions addons. The ones that debuff survivors when hit twice in frenzy will work on 1st hit instead.

Sad but true :)

Sry Warlock, but I need to say:

A killer can't be toxic. What can be toxic are the killer ->players<- and yes there you are right. Some Legions were toxic. At least I have seen some in streams/videos and on the Legion patch day, I was by myself very toxic - at least according to the survivor rules book. Don't know how many survivors I had mori on this day - the first day I had ever use them -_-.

But what should I say to my defence? The circumstances of that day, the circumstances of that day...

Also I have the strong believe that it was not positive for the communitie, that dbd lost the Legion. The Legion was 1 of a few killers in dbd, that had a special playstyle and every killer (not just the Legion) that offers a special playstyle also attracts a specific type of player.

Those players don't stay at a game, if their reason to stay breakes away.

The only people that have profit from it, were the people that have dislike or hate the Legion, but some of them were so toxic that it was in my eyes a deal with the devil.

The devs themselves said that Legion with his current base speed + his old FF speed would be insanely fast, fast enough to basically traverse a big chunk of the map in a very small time frame. They had to nerf FF's move speed to compensate. If you want his old base speed back with his old FF speed, they might consider doing that. But realistically you're moving faster with new Legion than you were with old.

I have by myself never take those "rules" from survivors or killers serious. What is allowed and what not, is shown via the game mechanics as long, as nobody exploits them.

But, there is no horrible design.

One guy dislikes a mechanic, the other likes it.

When I play my ms-warrior in wow as example, I could everytime bite in my keyboard when I have to deal with a frostmage (because feeled 3 million ccs's) or the most healing classes (because there heal is usually strong enough to survive 1 dd that nibbles on them). Still I'm ok with it.

Because there are other classes, where I have my chance and I see those guys not in every match (besides that frostmages are still possible, they are just annoyance as f.).

Back to dbd, a lot of people have like and some even love the old Legion. I had even make extra screenshots from endgame chats with happy survivors, because I had already know before that I will exactly run in your argument, sooner - or later.

On the other hand, there are a lot of people that have dislike, or even hate the Legion, but I tell you something... Exactly that shows a good design.

It needs to be edgy!

Every killer in dbd and every game mechanic has its lovers and haters. Did you think that I as a killer have enjoy all those speed% + perks? I wouldn't mind if they would go... But I think, that the most survivors have there might a different viewpoint and would say no and that's ok :).

It's in the game, so its something I have to deal with, as long as I play the game.

Besides that, how would you hold people now in the game, that have only join dbd because of a killer like the Legion?

Yeah, I know, they were all noobs and all of them were just bad person's - I know the opinion of some survivors here in those forums "blah, blah, blah, Legion this, Legion that" - but those people were also customers that have buy this dlc and god knows how many cosmetics - aka. they were part of a group who have give the devs money and as a companie, you should like money (because there is never enough).

So tl:dr, what would you offer those guys now?

There is nothing left! The Legion was not like the m1 killers, where it would be ok if 1 goes away, since there exist a ton of them in the game. The Legion was unique and as a consequence of that, has dbd nothing to offer anymore to those players and that means a part of their income breakes away and they will get a lot of negativity. Either here in the forums, or on other platforms, or in talks in real life.

This situation should never had happened and she should be solved as fast as possible, or it will go on and on and on and... I bet you know already what I will say now... on.

Spirit is exactly why they didn't keep his speed the same. She's a 110% killer. Hillbilly can only move in a straight line with his chainsaw, and Nurse has a fatigue every time she blinks, which is in reality many more fatigues than Legion will ever know. Legion has much more control of movement than any of the characters you mentioned, and with 115% speed plus fatigue speed being as fast as previously, he'd just traverse the map entirely too fast, and he can still cancel his power once catching up to someone. If they did want to give him this option, perhaps they could make it where he couldn't cancel his power, including misses once using it, forcing him to either wait it out, or keep hitting them/find other survivors. This would force him to use his higher mobility to find other survivors instead of hitting them with DW, and then cancelling/continuing to chase one survivor.

As for his counterplay, would you rather he had no counterplay? Every character has some form of counterplay. Splitting up is pretty much Legion's only counterplay to his actual power, which is essentially a mini Plague vomit(he can injure every survivor on the map if they don't split up in a very quick time frame. To be fair, Plague's vomit is better, as they are forced to stay injured unless they cleanse, but the fact remains that if survivors didn't split up to counter Legion's power, then they would simply just keep getting picked off). I don't think that Legion is SUPPOSED to chain hit all four every time he uses his power, which is a misconception I think that other people believe he should. I think 2 survivors is good, 4 survivors is supposed to be a lucky/rare case.

Thats not really how it is. Billy can a tiny bit change his direction shortly before he is fully "charged" (is that the correct word?, I guess you know what I mean), but yes of course, its not the same like with the Legion.

I assume that the most Legion players would happyley change their actual base-movement speed back to the old one, if some frenzy changes would go along with that.

What dw matters... They should just delete it and transform it into a pure dmg abilitie imo (what know I? maybe then every frenzy hit makes 10% - 20% dmg on a survivor or so - directly). The ability is anyways already useless and serves no other purpose anymore as to annoy the Legion player and the survivors.

What's going on here, I just quickly saw someone saying Legion had no counterplay when combined with stridor and bloodhound and it cracks me up because of how stupid that statement is.