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If they do make all the aura reading Survivor perks baseline...
Would anyone be opposed to Killers being able to run 5 (6?) Perks?
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Would actually seem fair honestly. A good thought.
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Probably some Survivor mains would be opposed.
Also, the devs seem opposed to this as it's not here. 😅
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Only if MoM gets to come back to its original form then you got a deal
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The flood of information would be really good for solos, having bond, and empathy, and kindred with slightly reduced ranges or something like that. Would totally make a solo pretty equal to SWF. Maybe SWF shouldn't have the aura reading then?? I'd love for the info gap between solo and swf to be equalized a bit and buff the killers along that.
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So i should trade some useless aura reading against OP Perk builds for killers? Definitely not.
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Here's the thing
A baseline aura perk or two would buff solos a little but do nada to SWF. Solos woild still be way weaker than SWF.
More solo survivors=killer benefit. Killers do not need any new perks. Game is already 3k average.
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ALL AURA READING!? Heck no. That would be so broken. Take OoO for example you don't always want to be read and you don't always want to read the Killer.
It wouldn't be fun. Yeah the killer would have 5-6 perks but Why even bother if the survivors would run away 10minutes before you got there...?
So there's no point.
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Buffing solos isn't going to drastically change the amount of solo survivors enough to actually benefit the killer. It would definitely do more harm to killer than good. SWF teams aren't just gonna break up because solo was slightly buffed.
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SWF teams don't need any aura perks. They already have them all basically.
You know why killers say every game is SWF? Because the solos got nerfed to the point they quit.
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Who said SWF teams needed them? This thread is about buffing solos, we're not trying to buff SWF. Buffing solos isn't gonna make everyone switch to solo and benefit killers. Killers will have to be buffed in some way because we're trying to close the gap between solo and SWF, and doing so means buffing survivors overall.
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Why do killers need buffs?
Is there ANY stats showing that killers are not getting average 2k per game or very close to it?
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Stats are however not accurate because of survivors dcing or killing themselves on hooks early, which screws over the entire team. There are definitely enough matches where survivors could have won but somebody who dc's or kills himself early enough ruins the game for the other survivors.
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According to official data posted on May, the survival rate at high ranks was about 60%. It also showed that more than half of the survivors were playing solo (sadly, it doesn't show the average party size in high ranks). So yes, Killer would need to get buffed if solo gets buffed.
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I'm confused, if solo survivor is so bad that they need those buffs to make up for being equal to SWF, why would killers need a buff? That doesn't make any sense because then you're just putting solos right back in the same position. Putting solos on par with SWF is literally only giving them some information. They're still weaker than SWF because they don't have communication. You can't say "Just do gens, leave them on the hook, that's the only way to punish what he's doing" for example to your teammates as a solo player. You also can't say "Just work through the ruin", etc.
People argue that that data is useless when it's said that killers have a 70+% kill rate, so why are we using these statistics for survival? Also, think about it, if HALF of the players are solos, the other half are SWF. SWF get mixed in with solos, making survival rates higher than they would be if it was 4 solos. I'd personally be interested in survival rates for ONLY solo players than survival rates across the board.
As for the main topic, I'm not sure how I'd feel about it. I feel like killers would just run multiple gen slowing perks together to make gens just never get done. 5 or 6 killer perks would probably be way too powerful. Also some aura reading perks may not do anything against certain killers in the future.
I would probably settle for Bond and Kindred base kit with no buffs to killers. It wouldn't be overpowered or even do anything to make things harder for the killer, and one could argue those should have been base kit from the beginning. Only thing is Dwight would need a new perk to replace Bond.<cough> https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/78629/major-survivor-buff-and-qol-change-pizza-box <cough>
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[4_MAN_SWF_ON_COMS] DETECTED / PREPARE FOR ELIMINATION
A fifth perk slot for killers is worth a try on PTR. Imagine Bond being baseline for survivors. How damn useful as solo. And there are a few other aura reading perks for survivors that could be baseline. It's a nerf for swf, that's like the most important thing.
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If solos are made to be nearly as good as SWF, killers would need buffs to compensate because SWF is extremely powerful right now.
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Solos will never nearly be as good as SWF. There're too many things you can convey to your teammates through voice that you cannot in the game. You can close the gap slightly, but there is no way that you can replicate SWF in solo play. The best info you could convey to your teammates is where each other are/if the killer is camping without using that information as band-aid fixes in order to ease the problems solo survivors have, but they will never be anywhere near the level of SWF. I mean, unless you wanted in game voice chat, in which case, sure killers could get some sort of buff, but not to the point where I need prove thyself + brand new part to even complete a gen. Killers are already getting plenty of buffs though, and they're going to keep coming, so I don't know why you're asking for more.
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This ^
While the survival rate stats are quite high at rank 1, in reality they are probably much higher than even that when you take into account all the scenarios that are falsely counting as "kills" in those stats.
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Can you explain how you could make the survival rate higher by taking out information that results in "kills". I assume you're talking about DCing, if so, how would the survival rate go higher? Unless you count those DCs as survival, which should obviously not be the case as they gave up. If you took out that data entirely, it wouldn't be any different. The only way it could go higher would be by counting that data as them surviving, which honestly is even more skewed than if you counted them as kills, because they usually are downed when they DC, meaning the killer caught them. If they caught them once, they can catch them again pretty easily, especially if they DCed, meaning they were likely caught early. Also there are farming killers, who actually don't take kills at all, which skews the data as well.
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Because DC's artificially make it look like the killers are killing more and the survivors are dying more than they actually are, thus if you were to take those out there would be more "survivals" if you will.
Downed when they DC doesn't necessarily mean DC'd on their last down. Generally it is on their first.
Other factors are things like the survivors just screwing around and giving free kills after the gates are open or NOED. I mention NOED because it isn't a reflection of the games balance.
Farming killers is a pretty irrelevant factor to mention here as those are extremely far and few, not even remotely as common as the other factors we are mentioning.
How the data would accomodate all of these things I do not know. My point here is to simply show how skewed that data really is and I suppose to point in the direction it artificially leans.
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I've run into quite a few farming killers. Generally they get two kills early and take pity on the rest, or some even start it from the get go. I've also had killers just stand still all game(quite often a while back I was having it every few games) and face a wall so you don't get any chaser points and can only do gens/totems and leave while they AFK(I assume to depip?). I would even argue to say I've had that happen more than I've had survivors DC on their first down. Not saying survivors don't DC a lot, but taking out that information would not make survival rates higher or lower. It would only remove data, not add to it. The only way it would make survival rates HIGHER is if you counted it as a survival. Instead, you throw that game out the window to make it a fair statistic.
You could also argue camping raises the survival rate, if the survivors do like people preach and just do gens and escape, that's 3 survivors out the gates and one dead. Should that be counted? No one really played the game. Keep in mind also that killers DC as well, which I would assume counts as all four surviving. Ruin pops within 30 seconds, and the killer DCs on occasion.
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I don't think they should be made baseline, but ideally perks would be categorized in a point system. Like CoD you can equip 10 pts. Team aura perks would be 1 or 2 pts, killer aura revealing perks would be 2 or 3, exhaustion perks and DS would be 3 or 4, etc.
I know it's not gonna happen but it's my dream.
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Same would go for killer btw, but their perks are tougher to categorize.
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In 4k hours I can count the farming killers I've seen on one hand.
"Not saying survivors don't DC a lot, but taking out that information would not make survival rates higher or lower."
It would. Those DC's are being counted as kills in those stats. You are assuming that if they hadn't DC'd they would have still died and that isn't the case.
I think you may be taking what I'm saying literally. I don't mean physically delete those numbers. I'm saying those DC's shouldn't be counted as kills.
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I've had more farmers and AFKs than you then.
If you take out survivor DCs only, then you'd be exploiting the statistics. The only way to fairly judge the statistics would be to take out that game entirely, as well as take out killer DC games entirely. But even by doing that, we'd likely arrive at the same numbers, or even less survival rates because a killer DC = 4 people "escaping".
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Being able to constantly see who is in a chase, and where, as well as who's on gens is an INSANE buff.
It means a heap more efficiency because people won't ever be hiding due to lack of information or any uncertainty.
There are subtleties you can convey through speaking, but giving everyone a massive amount of info, solo or not, would be a phenomenal hit to all killers.
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Killer DC's are much, much rarer than survivor ones to a point that I wouldn't think those would be affecting much.
"The only way to fairly judge the statistics would be to take out that game entirely."
I agree and I think that would raise the survival rates significantly.
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Funny you say that when you see a lot of videos on youtube of killer DCs 30 seconds into a game when ruin pops and you've experienced it a few times yourself..
And again, killers AFKing to depip. Killers not taking the game seriously(had a few of those), etc. Let's not even mention games where a rank 1 survivor gets put in a game against a rank 16 killer.
There are far too many situations where a killer will let people escape or not even try to deny escape, or even just can't because he's not the right rank. Had a game earlier where a Billy wasn't even using his chainsaw hardly, we did all the gens, he had NOED, and he literally just stood in front of someone cleansing the totem without using his NOED at all, then nodded his head and let us escape without even playing the end game before the doors were powered.
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"Funny you say that when you see a lot of videos on youtube of killer DCs 30 seconds into a game when ruin pops and you've experienced it a few times yourself.."
Youtube also makes people look like gods at the game when they are destroying in all their games when in reality they lost 10 games for every 1 that you saw them win. See my point? The youtube vids are pretty irrelevant and highly misleading.
I've got a lot of hours into the game experiencing hardly any of that.
"killers AFKing to depip"
This is VASTLY less common than survivors doing it.
"Killers not taking the game seriously(had a few of those)"
Very rare to see in red ranks.
"Let's not even mention games where a rank 1 survivor gets put in a game against a rank 16 killer."
Irrelevant as this is related to the bug with matchmaking that the devs have even recently made a post about and confirmed it is happening. Also only a recent bug.
These scenarios that can push the statistics in the other direction happen much, much less common than the scenarios I am referring to. Idk what rank you play at that you are seeing something different but I am referring to games at rank 1 where the games balance problems are actually coming into play and where the stats are coming from that we are referencing. If you are referring to at lower ranks thats fine, but lower ranks aren't where the games issues are happening currently. If you are playing on something other than PC that could also be the issue but there are separate stats for that.
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Youtube also makes people look like gods at the game when they are destroying in all their games when in reality they lost 10 games for every 1 that you saw them win. See my point? The youtube vids are pretty irrelevant and highly misleading.
Not everyone, and those same youtubers have been shown to DC themselves. Also seeing all those videos where a killer DOES DC when their ruin pops does not make it any less common knowing this. Those DCs still happened.
This is VASTLY less common than survivors doing it.
It's easier to DC to depip. You lose 2 pips instead of one, and if we took DC games out, then that wouldn't matter. An AFK killer on the other hand would still be messing with survival data, because they can't exactly confirm a killer is doing this, and throw it out like a DC.
Very rare to see in red ranks.
Still happens.
Irrelevant as this is related to the bug with matchmaking that the devs have even recently made a post about and confirmed it is happening. Also only a recent bug.
Still relevant as it is artificially making data bigger than it is. I also disagree it's some "recent" bug as I've faced rank 1 survivors as a green rank killer long before this DLC, and there have been posts up and down about it in the past, people complaining about being bullied by red ranks when they're far below red.
These scenarios that can push the statistics in the other direction happen much, much less common than the scenarios I am referring to. Idk what rank you play at that you are seeing something different but I am referring to games at rank 1 where the games balance problems are actually coming into play and where the stats are coming from that we are referencing. If you are referring to at lower ranks thats fine, but lower ranks aren't where the games issues are happening currently. If you are playing on something other than PC that could also be the issue but there are separate stats for that.
I play on PS4 and I'm not rank 1, but I've had many rank 1s in my games, and have had a few of them DC the moment they were caught. Doesn't mean they would have escaped if they hadn't DCed. Throwing the entire game out is the only way to form an unbiased statistic. However saying that, you also have to throw out killer DCs, and realize that other situations where the killer doesn't kill survivors but isn't intending to kill them happen. And that happens far more often than survivors letting the killer kill them intentionally. Usually when a survivor tries, the killer won't take it.
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"Not everyone, and those same youtubers have been shown to DC themselves."
On survivor, not on killer.
"Also seeing all those videos where a killer DOES DC when their ruin pops does not make it any less common knowing this"
Yes it does. It's falsely misleading you to believe it's happening more than it actually is.
"Those DCs still happened."
Not saying it doesn't happen, but you are mislead in believing how much it actually is happening.
"It's easier to DC to depip. You lose 2 pips instead of one"
I agree, but that doesn't mean it's a common occurrence among killers.
"An AFK killer on the other hand would still be messing with survival data, because they can't exactly confirm a killer is doing this, and throw it out like a DC."
I agree, but like I've said, this very rarely happens. Rarely enough to hardly be effecting the data especially if you are looking at it comparatively with survivors.
"Still happens."
The point isn't if it happens, the point is if it happens enough to be a significant impact on the data.
"Still relevant as it is artificially making data bigger than it is."
The data we are referencing was gathered before this bug so it did not influence our stats.
"I also disagree it's some "recent" bug as I've faced rank 1 survivors as a green rank killer long before this DLC"
These bugs weren't during the data collected.
"I play on PS4 and I'm not rank 1, but I've had many rank 1s in my games, and have had a few of them DC the moment they were caught."
This explains the issue. Not just that it's PS4, but the fact that you are playing at a different rank. We are talking about data on rank 1 where very different game play goes on than at lower ranks.
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On survivor, not on killer.
No, I've seen it on killer. I've never seen them DC as survivor.
Yes it does. It's falsely misleading you to believe it's happening more than it actually is.
No, it still happens as frequently as you see it. There are multiple games strewn about these videos usually, and sure, they may play MANY games, but that's still a common occurrence. You can't say "Oh that rarely ever happens" when there's video evidence of it happening multiple times.
I agree, but that doesn't mean it's a common occurrence among killers.
You have no proof of that, as far as I know they haven't shown any data regarding killers DCing.
I agree, but like I've said, this very rarely happens. Rarely enough to hardly be effecting the data especially if you are looking at it comparatively with survivors.
It may rarely happen, but it happens just as rarely with survivors. However with a survivor, one survivor may die. The other 3 may get out. At least one has a guaranteed chance, but the likelihood of them escaping has lowered drastically. With an AFK killer, all survivors get out regardless.
The point isn't if it happens, the point is if it happens enough to be a significant impact on the data.
Even if it only happened 1 in 10 times, that's still a significant number. That'd be 4 out of 28 with a 70% escape rate. They're counting that as a 4 escape. So if 1 game out of 100 was considered a 4 escape, that would increase the escape rate by 1%, but I'm sure it happens far more than 1 out of 100 games.
These bugs weren't during the data collected.
Again, it has been talked about long before recently constantly on the forums. It's a common problem talked about where lower ranked killers are bullied by higher ranked survivors. It's not just "a bug", unless it's something that has been going on for a LONG time, and if it has, then it's not something that's recent and is likely still in the data they gathered.
This explains the issue. Not just that it's PS4, but the fact that you are playing at a different rank. We are talking about data on rank 1 where very different game play goes on than at lower ranks.
No, we're talking about survival for rank 1s. Rank 1s can still get put in games against lower ranked killers. I highly doubt their data is matched as all rank 1 survivors vs a rank 1 killer, as they would have very little data to draw from in that instance. And knowing who we're talking about, it's likely they just compiled data from rank 1 survivors' survival rates.
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Back to OP's question
I doubt they'd allow for more perks. "Because op combinations would exist". Id like killer ability base stats to be buffed or getting some perks for free too (8m deerstalker or some small stuff)
One thing most people ignore in the solo-swf rebalance discussion is that there are no gameplay differences between solo and swf. The advantages of solo come from external knowledge and real time information exchange.
Any buff to solo survivors will affect swf too
Any aura reading or HUD info (current action icons etc) you get is information received instantly without first asking, receiving and processing their info. It doesnt sound like much, but it'll free up a lot of time for actual planning, strategizing or "just chatting with friends".
If implemented, we cant just disable such features for swf. Survivors have shown in the past that theyre willing to lobbydodge a lot to get into the same lobby as " 4 randoms". Also "we cant just nerf people for wanting to play with friends"
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"No, I've seen it on killer. I've never seen them DC as survivor."
Seeing some videos of streamers doing it is not reliable data. We are also not talking about if it has EVER happened, we are talking about enough to highly effect data.
"You can't say "Oh that rarely ever happens" when there's video evidence of it happening multiple times."
Multiple times across hundreds of games is not a common occurrence.
"You have no proof of that, as far as I know they haven't shown any data regarding killers DCing."
Thousands of hours of rank 1 play on both sides, how many do you have?
"It may rarely happen, but it happens just as rarely with survivors."
You don't know this at all. You've already said that you don't play at rank 1 which is where we are talking about. You are basing your entire opinion on youtube videos...
"Even if it only happened 1 in 10 times, that's still a significant number."
That would be a significant number I agree, but that is NOT how often it happens at all.
"Again, it has been talked about long before recently constantly on the forums. It's a common problem talked about where lower ranked killers are bullied by higher ranked survivors."
No, killers deranking intentionally to bully survivors is a very rare occurence. What IS highly common and talked about on the forums is survivors deranking to bully killers, which is also reflected in how much more often survivors intentionally DC.
"It's not just "a bug", unless it's something that has been going on for a LONG time"
You are referring to people intentionally deranking, not a bug.
"No, we're talking about survival for rank 1s. Rank 1s can still get put in games against lower ranked killers."
If we're talking about survival for rank 1's then stop referencing lower rank scenarios. The things you think happen a lot do not happen a lot at rank 1. You don't have firsthand experience on this and are basing your opinions on youtube videos. Rank 1's are not getting put against lower ranks outside of a bug.
"I highly doubt their data is matched as all rank 1 survivors vs a rank 1 killer, as they would have very little data to draw from in that instance"
The data was indeed rank 1, they made that very clear in their stats and it also wasn't very little data. Have you looked at the stats?
"And knowing who we're talking about, it's likely they just compiled data from rank 1 survivors' survival rates."
That's the entire premise of what we've been talking about here.
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No, killers deranking intentionally to bully survivors is a very rare occurence. What IS highly common and talked about on the forums is survivors deranking to bully killers, which is also reflected in how much more often survivors intentionally DC.
I'm not talking about killers deranking to intentionally bully survivors, however I do see a lot of people on the forums talk about doing this with moris. I'm talking about survivors who are rank 1 being put against lower ranks, which happens quite often and even if it is a bug, has been happening pretty much since I started playing. I've seen several posts talking about it happening, for several months. Unless the data is old, then it happened while this data was being taken.
If we're talking about survival for rank 1's then stop referencing lower rank scenarios. The things you think happen a lot do not happen a lot at rank 1. You don't have firsthand experience on this and are basing your opinions on youtube videos. Rank 1's are not getting put against lower ranks outside of a bug.
Again, this is a COMMON occurrence, and has been for a while. Not only because of bad matchmaking, there's also SWF and other such occurrences, and no, it's not rare. Rank 1 survivors are put against lower ranked killers quite often.
The data was indeed rank 1, they made that very clear in their stats and it also wasn't very little data. Have you looked at the stats?
Rank 1 for who? Everyone in the game, or just each rank 1 survivor in a game individually? I seriously doubt it was based on games where every player was rank 1, as there would be very little data to draw from. If it was each inrank 1 survivor in a game individually, what I'm talking about applies.
That's the entire premise of what we've been talking about here.
Yes, but data is skewed towards survivors when you have a Rank 1 survivor surviving against a rank 15. My point was that they likely did not only sample games where it was 4 rank 1 survivors vs a rank 1 killer. They likely only used rank 1 survivor data.
Oh and someone would have to play 24 hours to play hundreds of games in even 2-3 days.
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So, back to the perk discussion...
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Personally I think all that info has potential to hurt the game. There is a huge factor in the not knowing especially for solo players.
If we know everything then it removes most of the risk. Where then is the fun coming from?
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It must be coming from somewhere because half of all survivors are SWF. If map wide surveillance drained the fun from the game no one would play SWF.
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I think it's pretty safe to say that the original intent/design of "not knowing" is no longer an option, given how the majority of players play.
It's pretty weird that the solo role in this game is often the one with the least amount of information flow throughout the trial.
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The fun for them is playing with friends and having a laugh. That's engaging with the game and others which is understandable why thats fun.
Now playing solo how would knowing everything make better for the player? Personally you would lose more than you gain imo.
Not really for solo players unless you chose to use certain perks. Not knowing is still a huge factor. When playing as solo you have to be more aware which is a large part of the game.
If we knew everything it could easily and quickly become very mundane and truly a gen repair sim.
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