About Undetectable killers - ghostface in particular
In the last few patches (and more coming) Undetectable killers seem to be more and more common:
- wraith, especially with silent bell / all map bell
- myers tier 1
- ghostface
- crouched pig
- freddy when in dream world
- demogorgon after teleporting
- (spirit with prayers beads - technically not undetectable, but still basically 100% stealth)
Now, I'm happy that Object of Obsession is getting nerfed against those instances, it basically breaks the killer mechanic especially in a swf scenario, but aside from OoO there are more perks to take into account, like
- Alert - a perk that is already not very much used, is becoming more and more useless
- Kindred - again, a noob friendly (and solo player) perk, that doesn't work
- Borrowed Time - we all know is broken right now, I think they'll change it eventually
And that's the first point: some perks should need a rework imho, or at the very least break (even momentarily) the Undetectable status for killers which are interacting with something (e.g. like when wraith uncloacks when kicking a generator, I expect Undetectable to go away for a few seconds during similar actions for every killer).
The second point is that the Undetectable status, while adding some very appreciated variety to the game, changes drastically some dynamic of the game which are well established, namely Terror Radius and Red Stain, and this must be taken into much consideration when balancing the killer.
Take Myers T1 - yeah, he won't have a TR / RS, but he can't lunge nor run very fast, that's a big downside.
Wraith needs to uncloack before hitting, pig is very slow while crouching, freddy has his lullaby, demogorgon screams before teleporting.. but Ghostface?
Ghostface just needs to lose LoS to go stealth, the reveal mechanic is somehow broken right now due to camera-player-ghostface raytrace collision, and most of all there's no penalty at all for GF being revealed - a part from him being a bit slower than normal killers.
I think something should change - maybe a mini-stun like Legion post feral frenzy when coming out of stealth (not necessarily that long), maybe a channeling for when the killer goes into stealth like it is for wraith (even an audio cue wouldn't hurt and could add some interesting counter play). Undetectable is so strong that I think a very big change could still be ok, something like:
- Remove exposed status effect when a survivor is stalked.
- In order to charge its ability GF needs to stalk (note: stalking is only possible when the survivor is not looking at GF) - activation is automatic once a survivor is fully stalked.
- GF can be put out from Undetectable only by the survivor that activated GF ability, either by revealing him through LoS or by being hit. In any case stealth is removed once any survivor is downed.
Well, as you may have noticed I don't like very much the current state of GF :P, but the post is more like a "hey BHVR, be careful about Undetectable, there's a balance that can be broken very easily if you experiment too much!"
P.S. ...and what if an Undetectable killer would not only have his aura hidden, but couldn't see survivors auras as well? That would be a huge downside for a perma-stealth ghostface using sloppy + thana + nurse calling - and downsides are very much needed in a game of choices, otherwise there's really nothing to choose.
Comments
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Theres a quick note I think needs to be made.
Freddy does NOT have undetectable. He applies the oblivious status effect on the survivor. The major difference is oblivious only removes the TR, while things like aura reading and the red stain remain unchanged. One big downside to Freddy atm is that since he has no TR to sleeping survivors, OoO users can read his aura at ANY range.
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thanks for the clarification, I didn't know that - that's an important difference as well.
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Read the rest of your post. A big thing about all these killers is that while you wont get to read their auras or anything, spinechill is SUPER effective against them all. Even T1 Myers, whom before this change was immune to spinechill's effect...is now subject to it.
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It also means borrowed time is absolutely useless against him.
You can either stop it from going off if the rescuer is asleep or even if it does go off and you hit the person who got saved due to them not being under the effects of terror radius the DW bar will immediately start to drop until they fall down or mend
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Yeah, I can't agree with stunning GF when he's removed from stealth.
Not when GF can be removed from stealth by a survivor who can't be seen around a corner.
Not when GF can be removed from stealth by a Dying Survivor or Hooked Survivor.
Right now; Survivors don't have to risk themselves to Reveal Ghostface; they can see him around walls and corners, and even BEHIND THEMSELVES while working on Gens with their astral projection camera. I can't play GF without being revealed every 5 seconds because someone plays magic lookout.
A stun on Reveal would make GF quite unplayable.
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the stun is just an idea from a bunch I gave, I'm not saying it's the best approach.
On a side note, I suggest you to watch some streamers using ghostface, it's really not that hard to find a survivor undetected. If you struggle with it I'm sure it would help you a lot!
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Never said oblivious wasnt useful, just said that theres a difference. OP claimed in the original post that Freddy had Undetectable, which he doesnt. Undetectable would give him the same effect on BT, plus more.
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Fair
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ghostface stalk is so underwhelming most players play him just rushing to survivors and doing basic attacks , because of how his power is countered by survivors , and you want even more nerf his power , how funny
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"the reveal mechanic is somehow broken right now due to camera-player-ghostface raytrace collision"
If the problem is that the reveal mechanic isn't functioning, the solution seems pretty obvious.
Also, wasn't the audio cue for GF taken OUT during PTB because it was a terrible idea?
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the audio cue I'm suggesting wouldn't be permanent - it would play a sound when the GF enters his Undetectable status (similarly to the wraith bell), but then he would stay silent as it is now.
It would just be a notification to survivors "hey, be warned, even if you don't hear a TR the killer can be near!"
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I agree that stalking is underwhelming, that's why the proper way to play GF is not using the stalking ability altogether. Try to do that, you'll have much more luck playing him ;)
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That was in the PTB and quickly removed.
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Well, put it back lol. What was not okay was the constant sound that GF was emitting while undetectable - making him not stealth at all.
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Btw, doesn't Kindred trump Undetectable?
It says in the Perk description that it should.
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Well...no? It was taken out because it was really bad.
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it says it trumps "any stealth ability" but as far as I know Undetectable is something different and new - which trumps every aura reading. I think the description is now outdated, but I may be wrong.
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agree to disagree :)
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No. That perk description has been outdated since the Halloween Chapter.
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Hard to really make a case when it was already tested to be bad.
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Then they need to get to it.
I'll make a petition. 😜
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I feel like there has to be a bug on Ghostface. I was running toward the doors and he was standing in tall grass so I didn’t quite see him until I was right on top of him. No reveal and I had time to crouch and try to walk away but I’m sure he heard me and just turned around and swung, but until he swung there was no terror radius
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I don't agree with changing GF's night shroud to only activate when stalking someone/having to stalk before it activates. (thats what I got from the op, correct me if that's not what was being suggested)
It won't work. GF will never be in stealth if it worked like that because stalk only works at a certain range and the TR is definitely larger than the stalk range.
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That isn't a bug. Undetectable by definition means no terror radius, no red stain, and survivors can't see the killer's aura.
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My suggestion is to do something to change how GF works, I've proposed three different approaches, but more are certainly there.
In any case my point is not how to change GF, but why Undetectable needs to be considered as a very powerful ability for any killer, and this must be taken into account when trying to balance it.
Yes, right now I think GF needs some rework because of this, but it's not the main topic I wanted to discuss about.
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Stealth is supposed to be sneaky. Stealth Killers shouldn't be punished for doing what they are intended to do. I think a better argument is that these killers should have always been this way.
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on2 -
All the aura reading perks are going to be fine.... OoO is still going to be useful against all of the stealth killers, same with alert and etc..... GF has a punishing cooldown where his aura will be revealed, everytime pig uncrouches her aura will be revealed and uncloaked wraith will be revealed as well..... the stealth killers are finally going to have an identity....
Gf will still be just strong, in no way, no way can GF break the balance of the game... GF is prettymuch wraith without the speed boost..
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His downside is his long cooldown when broken out of stealth. Every other stealth killer can use their stealth repeatedly as much as they want (barring wraith flashlight)
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Pretty much this. Ghostface isnt able to control his own stealth, and he just becomes a powerless Killer temporarily when he's taken out of stealth.
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that's not a downside from being broken out of stealth. There's no penalty: you just used your ability, now it's in cooldown.
What is a downside?
- Wraith - you can't hit while cloacked, and you take time to uncloak/cloak
- Michael - you are SLOW
- Pig - same as Michael, plus the crouched POV
- Nurse - fatigue after a blink (not related to undetectable, but on what is a downside to an ability)
and so on and so forth. This means that you have to make a choice - use your ability and risk to lose sight / give time to the survivor to do something against you, or save it but remain 100% in the chase?
The worst that happens to GF is to have the ability in cooldown. Yeah, whatever, I'm still chasing the survivor exactly as before.
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Michael can hit tier 3 and down all 4 survivors in one go, wraith can body block survivors while cloaked, pig has her traps as a slow down on the side and can use it for mind-gaming that no other killer can do on short debris loops, nurse is nurse.
Ghostface can not do anything besides M1 which all of these can also do alongside their powers. Against a stalking-focused ghostface breaking him out of stealth means a +~20 seconds timer on the chase that will ensue at minimum as he won't want to give up his stalk meter on you. Against the other ghostfaces it's a slowdown to an M1 based chase.
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How is it not a downside? You are locked out of it if you fail to take advantage of it, and it is not something any other stealth killer currently has.
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GF got one good build. Anti-heal. People want a nerf for him? No. Really no. His stalk is trash atm and making his stalk being the ability to get undetectable is a new legion.
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I’ve looked up the timing and saved the video to count. I was looking at him easily long enough to drop his shroud, but it didn’t drop even if I accounted for add ons extending it.
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What type of tall grass might I ask? Corn fields block stalking (and by relation breaking him out of it). The same happens with mikey's stalking in corn fields. They're considered line of sight blockers even if you're directly on the survivor's path.
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I’ve already explained it.
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And I don't buy it. The downside comes in your inability to properly use it, rendering you as just an M1 killer.
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This is not the way to approach a discussion, I'm not trying to sell anything. I have my idea and I expressed my reasoning behind it.
You don't agree with that? Fine, you're entitled to have your opinion, wrong or right it doesn't really matter, but still, try to be respectful.
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Okay, then I disagree and follow up with what I said before.
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You are directly trying to sell something: add nerfs to ghostface via sound cues ala ptr pre-nerf, a stun ala light-burn when his stealth has nothing to do with the other realm or a further nerf to his stealth altogether that requires him to be stealthy while not having a stealth ability.
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It was the tall reeds in backwater swamp to the right of one of the exit doors
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I'm about 80/20 that those work the same as corn but would need confirmation on that. The other 'sight' blockers I'm thinking of that wouldn't directly block are yamaoka estate's short-bamboo stalks
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Sell it to whom, exactly :)?
A lot of the guys who posted expressed interesting counter points from what is my view - I don't agree with all of them, but still, that's the reason why a board exist: to exchange opinions.
Yes, I think GF needs a rework, which doesn't necessarily mean a nerf, and I'm confident eventually this will happen, but trust me, I don't really care that much if this happens or not.
I wanted to discuss Undetectable as a whole, GF right now is the most relevant example as to why this new status effect must be balanced well, that's it.
If BHVR will ever read this topic I'll be happy, if they don't I'll still be happy for every respectful reply we've had so far :)
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Ghostface is fine, his downside is being able to not use his power for 30 seconds after being revealed. A stun would just be awful for the killer. All I could ask for Ghostface is to make revealing more consistent. By that I mean the problem of being revealed behind walls and not being revealed when literally in the open staring at him. That's all he needs
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If you complain about Ghostface you’re just a bad survivor tbh.. he is just an M1 killer that can hide his terror radius.. Just look around you while working on gens and loop him if you get spotted.
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Exactly /\ Michael has been in the game long enough, wraith, pig <---- all for years before GF was thought of... you dont even need perks to go against them but between perks and SWF... undetectable isn't going to be that bad
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i think gf is fine. also his stalking. with the right addons youre exposed in no time but you still up against a normal m1 115 mov killer. his cloaking gives him easy first hits if u dont go for stalking. in rank 1 the survs are much more aware and you get uncloaked very easily. but if you getting better with gf you will be able to handle it. i only rage on campy gf but thats an usual surv syndrome so whatever.
and damn those streamer that give a away specific nasty perk builds. pls nerf dbd streamer
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Just came to say... BT is not broken, if you're not near the hook then BT becomes useless. Also, you can go for the unhooker instead of the unhooked if you know someone may have BT and it's closer to your TR. Adrenaline is broken.
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I'm over here praying they don't touch ghostface. I love him as he is.
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Ghost Face is an add-on reliant killer which depends on the survivors awareness. If you really want to nerf this, idk what to tell you.
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