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Please Stop acting like DBD is a 1v1 Game!
I have a feeling that a lot of arguments for or against Nerfs are based on a view that is simply false.
Spirits got like 35 sec chase average, which might feel bad, totally understandable. But you guys finally have to realise, that survivors are supposed to get caught, they are NOT supposed to be able to get chased for the entire match. And even this average on one of the best killers in the game means, that against an optimal group of survivors round about 3 gens will be done by the end of the chase. Chase average does not even include the time it takes to find a survivor and hang him. Survivors are wasting more time than the chase average , than the actual chase average time.
Also please consider this : An average of 35 seconds per chase, means that the killer needs on average 7 Minutes for 12 hooks. The only way for a killer to counter an optimal swf group is to go for a kill as quickly as possible since 7 minutes of chasing means that you will loose the game. And we are talking about the BEST average time. Imagine how it must be for non Spirit Killers.
Survivors already are the power Role, if both sides play perfectly the survivors will ALWAYS win.That is not an opinion its based on simple math. No Opinions allowed here.
The solution to this problem is not nerfing Killers and do something about the objective time.
It is completely absurd, that playing killer is way more stressful than survivor. I do play both sides and everytime i just wanna play and chill a little bit, i play survivor.
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I do agree that something should be done with objectives as it's pretty quick to get generators done most of the time. Not sure what to say about spirit as i find her fun to play at times and play against even. I just get really bored playing against spirit 20 games in a row, but that would happen with any killer. I'm also not really happy with the changes to nurses base kit as i feel changing add-ons would have sufficed. Hopefully they don't butcher spirit's ability the same way.
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It's less about the chase time and about how it ends. A short chase done by anyone else feels like you got outplayed by the player.In the case of the Spirit, it feels more like you got outplayed by just the character not the person behind the character.
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We should repeat this to the heavens:
You can double pip, even if you die. (Give or take depending on rank) While the end objective is to survive, the pipping system dictates you do other things.
That's why 20 second gen games end with EVERYONE losing a pip. Nobody gains enough points to do anything.
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one word: overperforming
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But most people dont care about pipping so...
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maps are also an issue on both sides. swamp hawking lerys are hated by both sides due to their absooutely gross design.
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I don't see how the game having a bad matchmaking system makes this any better.
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The solution to problems like that is presentation. Not nerfs.
Because you DID get outplayed by the person and not the character. So even if it feels otherwise the issue isn't a mechanical one and thus doesn't necessarily require a mechanical solution.
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But Lery's is my favorite map based solely on how much fun I have on it.
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Honestly, there's not a lot of room to truly outplay a Spirit. All of her counterplay is based on guesswork, because she has no visual or auditory feedback to let you know what she's actually doing.
Even if you equip all the perks that supposedly counter her (Iron Will, Spine Chill, Fixated, etc.) and try your absolute hardest to mindgame and mislead her, there's no guarantee that you won't take a hit. The Spirit might bump into you while phasing, or predict the trick, or hear your footsteps, or hear your breathing with Stridor, or do a fake-out that can't be detected by Spine Chill, or just make a lucky guess. No matter how much you try to outplay her, there's always a good chance that she'll hit you anyway.
When you're being chased by a Billy or a Huntress, you KNOW that they can't hit you if you break line of sight and force them to make lots of tight turns. The Spirit has no such guarantees; there's no foolproof way to avoid taking a hit from her until she's already used up her phase walk.
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Hell yeah dude, if I get 1 kill and I get Entity Displeased I feel good.
But if I'm Survivor I get really ######### annoyed when I lose pips but it's rare when the Killer is who makes me de-pip.
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Just because it's not a guarantee doesn't mean it's a guess.
If you try to guess then you will never do better than 50% juke rates and you will often do worse due to there being a lot of objectively wrong options that don't actually initiate mind games.
If you instead use psychology, pattern recognition and logic to predict her then you can do much better.
I have other posts with the details in specific scenarios, but there is a difference between a prediction, a reaction and a lucky guess.
And honestly even if that weren't true, how is your "outplay" on billy or huntress any better? You said yourself that you've guaranteed you won't be hit. That means that the player behind the character is completely irrelevant to your success. In other words you've outplayed the character and not the player. Since the other players input had no relevance in the outplay.
By comparison, when you outplay a Spirit there is usually some action that she could have done to hit you anyways, but was tricked into not doing in one way or another. In other words the character could still hit you, but the player was prevented from succeeding in spite of that. You've outplayed the player.
And from the Killers PoV, as someone like Nurse you just get LoS and then blink in their direction to get the hit.
If a reaction is possible for the Survivor no matter what the Nurse does then the player is irrelevant and you are only outplaying the Character.
If a reaction is possible for the Nurse no matter what the Survivor does then it's the same deal but in reverse.
Reaction based scenario's always have a fixed outcome given optimal play. Thus if one of the players is optimal then the other player is irrelevant even if they are also optimal.
However Prediction based scenario's don't even allow for more than 1 optimal player in the first place, and the outcome isn't predetermined by the mechanics. This means it instead comes down to the players since the mechanics are insufficient to determine the winner.
What could be more player vs player than an interaction where it's the player inputs solely determining the outcome of a match up that is neither predictable through shear mechanics nor influenced by randomness (in the context of the specific play. DBD has plenty of randomness overall).
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Seems to me like swf is the problem.
I personally don't care about swf as I don't have any. The game is evidently not build around swf, there is hardly any means to communicate with others besides two emotes and the pre/post game chat.
Swf with coms entirely breaks the structure of the game.
With coms I can tell my buddies when the killer is chasing me, where he is chasing me and when he stops chasing me. This is information that you would not get otherwise outside of perks. For a good reason.
The only way to really fix this in my eyes is to make swf games completely private.
No random killers who are not part of the swf group.
If there are no coms the killer can somewhat manipulate the chase. I for example always try to lead the chase from one gen to another, that way I have information on the gens while at the same time ensuring that atleast one guy is not working on them. I can end the chase at every moment and switch targets.
It's not that big of an issue if there are no coms.
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The devs balanced it like one.
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So you want killers that have no chance at hitting you at all? Got it
I guess you're one of the people that says all god windows and safest braindead loops are fine against M1 killer
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So you're saying if the killer is bad and the survivor is good, they should get caught no matter what despite outplaying the killer just because you want realism? Well if you want realism might as well let survivors help each other climb over the wall to escape.
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Or yknow, buff the underdogs... I want to see legion have more of an actual ability and pig to have her endgame back, and wraith not to be seen in his ‘invis’ and...
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When you're being chased by Billy and Huntress, you know that they're trying to get a clear shot on you so they can hit you with their chainsaw/hatchets, and they know that you'll be trying to break line of sight with them to prevent that. In many chases at various looping locations, you end up doing an intricate dance with the Killer, with both of you trying to mindgame each other and catch the other player out of position, either so the Survivor can extend the chase time or so the Killer can get a hit on you.
There is no such interaction or counterplay with the Spirit. The Spirit's power is uninteractive by design. The Survivor can be a godlike player who's totally mastered the game's systems and understands every aspect of playing against Spirit, and the Spirit can be a noob who just makes random guesses at where you are when she phases, and yet the Spirit player can often score a fast and easy hit on the survivor, just by dumb luck.
When you take a hit from Spirit, you're often being outplayed by the character, not the player. No matter how good you are as a Survivor, there's always a good chance that she'll hit you anyway. That's what makes her frustrating to play against.
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A mindgame scenario is just as likely to result in a lucky hit for the Killer for Billy as it is with Spirit (50% or less just like your odds of guessing as a Survivor). For stuff like that all mindgames are the same
The data you actually have isn't what's important there because it's not what you use to win a mindgame, only what you use to set up a mindgame.
When the data is sufficient to make a definite right decision it's called a reaction and not a prediction. If you can guarantee they don't hit you then whatever you did wasn't a mindgame, since for it to be a mindgame there needs to be something they could have done but didn't that would have stopped it from working, and the reason why they would need to have not done it is an incorrect prediction.
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Sorry, but it ceases being a mindgame once you can see the killer preparing his move. A prediction is not necrssary if you can just react.
Rock-Paper-Scissors doesnt work if there's a 100% reliable tell to your move. (Psst, thats what *some* survs want added to spirit)
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First off, you should realise the game is based on players having fun then it does with them having long chases. This has NOTHING to do with suriviors having to loop the killer, but them enjoying themselves while playing this game. If this was the case then explain why killers such as Nurse took 2 years to get nerf? Surely if a strong killer such as the nurse who is capable of ending chases in 20 seconds or less, would have got nerf sooner, right? But she didn't because players were enjoying themselves which is why she didn't get nerf in that time period. Obviously as time goes by people were not enjoying themselves playing against her which is why she got nerf. The same reason instant heals got nerf is because killers were not having fun against it.
Secondly, you forgot to mention what if the killer starts slugging. You also forgot if the killer uses perks to slow the game down.
You also collect that data from Scott Jund who stated that the surivior he was playing against was one or if not the best suriviors in this game. So it really isn't a reliable data, unless you are talking about an optimal team (then you would also have to be talking about an optimal killer to balance it). There are also killers such as Nurse, Hibiily and Huntress which are all capable of ending chases at that time, if not faster( I don't think that is a debate).
Thirdly, a killer is capable of finishing the game faster than a surivior doing gens, so is it really the objective time to blame or the killer's skill? But you would srill say suriviors are the power role instead of killers?
I'm joking (kind of), but when you guys speak of objective time do you guys even know how long you want it to take? Do you understand how boring the gameplay would be for suriviors doing gens for more than 80 seconds(especially if a killer uses ruin)? Do you truly think it would make much of a difference? These are questions I think people should ask more before jusr saying simple things.
I don't disagree with the objective time, but I don't like how you are treating killer mains as if they are just fodder to suriviors majority of the time, when it is untrue. Worst case, use leatherface and camp in the basement you are always certain for 2 kills or more each game.
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If every chase was supposed to last like 30 seconds, no one would play survivor. Chases are the most enjoyable (and probably the only enjoyable) part of the game.
If you keep outplaying the killer, you should deserve to have long chases and if you outplay survivors as killer you should be able to end chases quickly.
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Well, considering that the Spirit has near-perfect information about what you're doing if they use headphones, and the Survivor has almost no information about what the Spirit is doing, then you're right.
The Spirit's power isn't about mindgames, it's just about reacting to information to make a definite correct play. While the survivor just flails uselessly, hoping that the Spirit makes a mistake.
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I'd disagree because the Spirit player would have to predict where you went (As the spirit player cannot see survivors and can only see scratches and hear breathing). I'd say I'm a decent Spirit, and I get it wrong half the time where they went, but I still get them because I'm familiar enough with survivor pathing and mindgames to actually get them down. No character is inherently powerful (Look at Nurse and Billy... you can still not catch anyone if you're bad enough), it requires the player to have the skill. It's not just having a decent headset.
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Problem is as killer in many cases there is no way to outplay the survivor. If someone gets to a god window there is no mind game its loop until entity block or leave and hope other survivors dont use the window.
I'd say spirit and nurse are equivalent to survivors that use the i'm untouchable spots.
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A secondary objective, map reworks and buffs to weaker killers would fix the issues. Making chases shorter would just make playing survivor very unfun.
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Who hates Lery's? That's one of the best maps in the game!
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Huntress mains.
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Where are you getting 35 seconds from cuz my teammates can’t even last 10 seconds.
There is still a skill gap that no one wants to talk about. I watched a guy play Plague without ruin and slaughter red rank survivors over 100 times.
At some point even the best killer will realize where they are doing something bad and improve.
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Touché
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This is a late response,but...
What I mean by being beat by the character vs the player are the instances where I lose just because of who I was facing rather than the player being skilled. This is easier to swallow when other killers employ it because their braindead tactics have an obvious counter. If I lose to a camping Ghostface or Bubba, or an BBQ zipping Billy that's on me. Their low skill tactics are easy to employ but are also easy to counter. The Spirit gets a big results for a using a strat of that caliber except it's easier to do and more effective.
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No balance and fun aren't the same thing because everyone has a different definition of fun
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Obviously they are not the same thing and different people woukd have different opinions. However, in general things being balance allows the game play to be fair and enjoyable in both sides. I look at fun to be a part of fun because most people seems to enjoy things that are balance.
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If the devs balance around fun things will go to #########
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