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The problem with future killers
So, just to begin with I wanna say that I love this game and I'm not making this post to hate on it or the developers (who I think, even with all the bugs and glitches have actually done a pretty good job so far). No other game has kept me entertained and interested for as long as this one, so kudos to you.
Said that, I think with the Oni (and maybe even earlier with Ghostface and Demogorgon) it's getting evident the developers are running out of ideas for new powers. What I mean is we're just getting this recycled ideas and "mashup" killers. The Oni has mecanics that could be comparable to stalking a survivor (like Myers) to fill up a bar and then the killer becomes the Hillbilly. With Ghostface we had the stalking mechanics (myers) mixed with the remove terror radius (like pig). With Demogorgon we have another teleporting killer (like the hag or freddy) just changing some of the conditions.
Still, it worked. I had a lot of fun playing with all these killers but it gets me worried for the future. I don't think it's a matter of the developers not having enough creativity but more about the limited sandbox they have to play with. I mean, in the end the survivor only have one objective; fix the generators and escape, while the killer only has to stop them. This leave us with limited options/archetypes for killers.
My point with this post is to ask you guys what you think. What could be done to the game so we could have more variety? Maybe add a new killer who is actually a new game mode? Like a mastermind that puts obstacles for survivors (like the coming resident evil PvP spin off). Because right now for me, as much as Im still invested in the game, it's getting really underwhelming.
TL;DR: Too many recycled mechanics. what can be done?
Comments
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its sad to see i agree. i dont understand how we still dont have a killer who uses a hook to grab and pull survivors to him (like roadhog.)
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You're seeing what you want to see at this point.
Every game uses essentially every mechanic you just mentioned in some form or another. You may as well say every killed is a copy of Trapper because they all walk around the map and hit people.
You should say that Hillbilly, Nurse, and Legion are all just Wraith because their power lets him move faster. Or that Bubba, Meyers, Plague, and Ghostface are all just Hillbilly because their powers let them one-shot survivors.
The Oni collects resources that survivors drop to fill up his power gauge. Never been done before.
He can use the resources dropped as a way to track survivors. Never been done before.
He uses the resources collected to empower himself into a temporary speed state (which plenty of killers AND PERKS do) that allows him to one-shot survivors.
Using similar mechanics isn't running out of ideas. There are only so many "unique" mechanics to work with. It's how they're used and applied that make killers different. Never play a video game is you don't want to see these exact same mechancis implimented somehow, because they're in every single video game ever.
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I don't think they're running out of ideas, it's that they conform themselves to the mechanics and isn't bothering making anything outside the box. I assure you they wouldn't bother creating a killer with a unique power if its too much work. Take a look at Legion, The trailers give a different impression of what his power is going to be but the one that came out was so bland that it's literally an excuse to have cosmetics in retrospective.
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I wouldnt compare Meyers, Plague or ghostface to hillbilly because his mechanics are not just about the one shot.. but also speed (both fit ONI, though). So yeah, I think it's pretty fair comparing both of them.
And I agree "There are only so many "unique" mechanics to work with".... until you add more mechanics! We've seen it in the past.. they added the doctor who applies debufs to the survivors, they added the pig, who can put traps and stall the game a bit... then myers who can stalk and expose survivors... even the plague with the cleansing mechanic and the liquid projectile, pretty neat. Now saying collecting the orbs to fill a gauge is a new mechanic.. or that you can use it to track.. I dont know. Feel a little too gimmicky to me..
If th developers really mean when they say they want to grow and support this game for another 10 years I think it's fair we can expect a little bit more from them.
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All those mechanics you mentioned (except for the Doctor's) are just different takes on the same ability. You'll never be happy because there's only a finite amout of ways for them to make killers go faster, find survivors, and down them.
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This, nothing is actually “original,” anymore. Building up power, ranged attacks, stealth and one hits are probably going to be recycled often.
People want original ability, see the hook request above, without realizing it would be way too strong or be neutered to the point of being way too weak.
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I am happy. And all the things I mentioned were the first instances when a mechanic was added. You could maybe even add the huntress there with the ranged attack (which plague also does, but to apply a debuff). My point is exactly how to keep the game fresh if from now on everything is gonna be the same thing but slightly different.
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Saying stalking is like absorbing blood is reaching.
Like @Tarvesh said, you are seeing what you want to see.
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maybe, but I was talking more about filling the gauge than stalking properly.
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You're not completely wrong, every game has limited space to work with to create new options and interactions (called "design space")
I know this thread isn't for "homebrewing" fan-made killers and such, but I can still see a good big chunk of design space after the usual suspects are taken care of. Not to mention the killers should be flavorful and hit certain genres or atmospheres for the overall horror genre. As they said in the AMA, if the game needs it, they can and will change and expand the base game.
One day we may get more gestures (besides "point that way" and "come here") one day we may get survivors who can carry other survivors, or maybe even a survivor with a power instead of an item slot, maybe they'll bring back moonlight for a werewolf, might fully embrace what The Legion teased (a doppelganger killer who can properly blend in with survivors) one day maybe a killer who can "equip items" to change his/her powers to mimic the other killers' powers. Maybe The Hillbilly gets a whole rework to not use a chainsaw (The Cannibal is kind of iconic with his chainsaw) maybe The Alchemist joins in with a serum-harvesting power and/or is the first character to be playable as a survivor and as a killer. The Observer probably isn't likely to be playable, but he could be a survivor (or killer? O.o) who could play differently depending on what survivors he plays with or what killer he's up against. Someone in this thread mentioned a killer "mastermind" who can maybe manipulate the map to create different obstacles (or perhaps move the locations of totems/gens/pallets) The possibilities aren't endless, but there's a lot still there.
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90% of games have you filling or depleting a gauge of some kind. It's not an indication of running out of ideas.
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The blood is not exactly like stalking...you don't need to keep the survivor in sight to collect it; they can't stop you collecting them unless they heal and you'll still passively get it.
It makes sense it's on such a bar really, with how snowball-y this killer is; he comes across as a better billy, at this point (yes I agree there is similarity here; we all see it but that's not necessarily a bad thing) but that doesn't mean this sets a precedent for all future killers. Ghostface had to fit lore, for example. And being a stalker made sense; we already had one stalker who wasn't a pure stealth killer and the design of GF actually fits stealth in general, so it fit well for that playstyle in-game.
Hag's teleportation is completely irrelevant to all other killers in the game right now, and demogorgon's teleportation is moreso a reverse of Freddy's; where one gains power over the course of the game, the other loses power over it. but remember, both of these were again limited to being lore friendly.
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oh man, I can only hope the game grows and implement that much stuff in the future. Im hopeful.
yes, I agree him being a bit like billy is not necessarily a bad thing, Im just thinking about the future and maybe getting too alarmed about it.
also you made good points about fiting the lore (which im totally not against) and the differences about demo and freddy... they managed to make them different enough even using basically the same mechanic.
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This, nothing is actually “original,” anymore. Building up power, ranged attacks, stealth and one hits are probably going to be recycled often.
People want original ability, see the hook request above, without realizing it would be way too strong or be neutered to the point of being way too weak.
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This, nothing is actually “original,” anymore. Building up power, ranged attacks, stealth and one hits are probably going to be recycled often.
People want original ability, see the hook request above, without realizing it would be way too strong or be neutered to the point of being way too weak.
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I dunno...after seeing him, I dont care if I have both Myers and Billy lvled up, ill GLADLY dump points into this behemoth, lol. He looks like a blast to play.
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I completely disagree with OP.
Oni is probably the most inspired and multi faced killer they have ever introduced: completely new mechanics (blood droplets to fill the power gauge AND for tracking), new sound system, new dash mechanics..
ghostface introduced the leaning system and was one of the reasons behind the Undetectable introduction.
Demo has very unique trap interactions and mechanics (plus a gorgeous looking map :P..)
If anything, I’m impressed on how they are still keeping things fresh.
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Heck, for a while there I was concerned it would be a long while before we started to see original killers after The Ghost Face and The Demogorgon. But they delivered with The Oni (is original, albeit uses previously established lore--good and bad, but does hit an archetype they hadn't yet explored) I'm hoping they dig into more thematic design space soon (a watery map with a swim or dive mechanic, Jaws-style jump scare killer, a gothic horror killer--werewolf killer, I guess The Oni eats up design space for a vampire, a cosmic horror killer, a body horror killer, a doppelganger/lookalike killer, and plenty others I can't come up with off the top of my head--so I don't blame the devs for being unable to do the same.)
Some licensed killers (or concepts based on them) definitely sharpen their options and "restrictions breed creativity", so I'd like to see what they'd come up with to make some niche killers work. The Djinn from The Wishmaster comes to mind (or in general, a Djinn/Genie killer whose power somehow is a byproduct of "granting [the survivors'] wishes". (Okay, ya got me, that's almost impossible to imagine lol)
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Oni really is a lot like a budget Billy due to his demon charge ability giving him the mobility that Billy has with his chainsaw. However, his use of that mobility is very different because he can't use it all the time like Billy can and he doesn't get staggered by running into walls. That said he is going to have his own play style that is going to set him apart even though parts of his mechanics are copied from other killers we've seen before.
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I'm thinking they have more complex ideas but having to adjust them to work best on dedicated servers and the P2P connection can be a hassle.
Using tried and tested powers is an effective way to deliver a good killer which has minimal risk of not working properly.
Another ranged Killer for example would likely get a bad reception from the state of dedicated servers.
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I think the original post is asking what can BHVR do besides build new killers with slightly different powers?
They would need to expand the game into new areas: new game modes, new objectives for both sides, offerings (or something new) that alters the game greatly.
Examples might include:
1) new game mode: survival - no gens, no exit doors, just a hatch. Maze like setting and other new maps. Survivors have to try to outlast each other, getting more BP as you go. New items help them do this, confusing the killer with decoys and/or selling out their “teammates”.
2) new game mode: invader or veteran - when you successfully escape you are given the option to take your BP or risk it all to be hot dropped into a game in progress with 4+ gens to go. The killer gets a notice and so do the survivors. The invader glows a bit. Now more potential BP for everyone. Repeat as necessary.
3) new game mode: Last Man - very large map with 20 survivors, 30 gens (or none), and 4 killers. Killers can see their BP rank versus the other killers. Every 5 survivors sacrificed the Entity pulls the lowest point killer out. Could play down to either the gens being done or just find the top survivor and top killer.
4) leaderboards! In addition to rank show how many DCs a surv/killer has accumulated in past 48 hours.
5) cosmetics only available based on your devotion level.
6) new killer: game master - standard 115% m1 killer but they have a limited editor outside of games where they can customize the map a bit, placing totems and gens, etc. they always pick the map that is played! That is their power, foreknowledge of the map and its layout.
7) new objectives: parts scavenging for gens and altars for the killers. What these do I don’t know .
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I LOVE these ideas.
I think the first one is a little toxic... but that would be the point!! to outlast your opponents and have a laugh doing so. I think that could be really fun.
Of course I think some of these are easier to implement than others but I like these ideas.
When I look to other games competing with DBD (like Last Year the nightmare or even friday the 13th) I wonder what if DBD took one or two pages out from these games. Like a map that has several gates that you have to open, getting more and more nightmarish as you move on.. and maybe slightly different goals as you progress.
But I think your ideas 1 and 3 could be implemented with only the mechanics we have right now. Again.. not saying it would be easy, but maybe doable?...
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@FogNoob i would think they’re doable. #3 would take some work but would be a lot of fun. Allow survivors and killers a few boxes to check so they know what kind of game they are getting. The game already pits survivors against each other somewhat; you need teammates but also sometimes it’s in your best interest to put them between you and the killer.
What do you think of the killer that can modify the maps outside of the match?
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Same dude nice to know I’m not alone 😎
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I think I deleted my comment by mistake.. weird!
But anyway.. when I said ideas 1 and 2 I actually meant 1 and 3. I love the idea of having a large map and more killers competing among each other as well.
I also like the idea of the mastermind killer! I suggested it earlier but I was basing this idea on the new resident evil spin off that's coming out next year. But I think it would fit the DBD lore so well..
But I really like the idea of pitching survivors against each other. I dont know if you saw it but a few streamers have been doing this "sandbag with friends" kind of games lately where whoever survives gets a point. they are making their own rules of course... but imagine if this idea could be expanded as you said and become a new mode. I really like it.
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On one hand you're right that there's some kind of recycling and that's inevitable, but there's something you don't consider which is the "flavour" of a mechanic. For example Myers and Ghostface both stalk to expose survivors, but each in an unique way that gives its own flavour
Same with the One and the Hillbilly, they might be able to run fast with limited steering and be able to one shot survivors, but they feel and play very different.
Essentially, until the flavour is different it's ok to use simlar mechanics.
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Don't know why you think the hook ability would be original
It would just be another ranged attack like Huntress or Plague
But except of damaging or debuffing survivors it would offer movement advantage
Don't get me wrong, it sounds awesome and i would love to play it
Honestly just shows that this "nothing is original" is a mood point
Almost every killer feels different, even with simular abilities
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Right, even the hook wild end up getting complaints about being similar. It would be a “thrown,” item that brings the survivor to you
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I mostly agree with OP. It was immediately apparent that Oni was a blend of Billy and legion (ability power up over time)
While it is underwhelming to not see any really new abilities come to the game the real issue to me are the perks. They could make new killer abilities, they aren't really, but each time they pump out 3-6 perks they are lucky to add one that has any real value. Getting buried in perk options is no fun either and it will only get worse.
I agree with others that a new game mode or objective is becoming more and more necessary.
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Jason vorhees is something they need to work on harder to get into this game with his set of skills. Thatll be a change.
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Isn’t new Freddy a mix of clown and hag?
Demo a mix of Hag and Huntress?
You can find relations if you want to on lots of killers
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Where is the Killer that interacts with or otherwise uses the Crows?
I'd like to see that.
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I was actually pleasantly surprised by The Oni's originality. Calling him a mash up between hillbilly and myers isn't very fair or accurate imho.
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lol, explain how. What does Jason do that any killer not already released do?
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I think that's the point of this post. They are recycling abilities and the more they do it the more underwhelming new abilities are.
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Its an issue with the current release schedule. Four killers a year is too much. At the same time they must feel three killers would be too far apart and cause players to become bored.
IMO, three killers a year is plenty and new maps can fill the gaps in content. The current model doesn't seem to provide time for bug fixes. Fixes only seem to come during mid and chapter patches where new bugs get introduced to replace the old.
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This is probably the core problem.
The same problems and reasonings can be applied to the perks as well. 3 new perks per side seem to be making every subsequent perk set less exciting than the previous ones.
I've said in previous videos that they're painting themselves into a corner with the perks they create and that it'll only get worse.
Maybe the same can be said about the killers themselves... but I see the other side.
Overwatch has 30+ characters and they all shoot guns... So this sounds like a good debate topic at least lol
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I actually made a killer concept like this under fan-made stuff of the forums, I wish there was a hook based killer as well.
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Reverse Nurse basically?
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i just want a roadhog killer because i liked him so much in overwatch :)
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I agree with others in this thread. Almost ALL games are like this. One of my favs, Monster Hunter World is another example.
Each monster is unique and different in their own way, but at the end of the day, they are very similar.
At least in DBD, you can play each killer very differently.
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I kinda hope the archives is their first attempt to get a new release schedule. Currently their plans seems to use the archives to add more "freshness" to the game by releasing a new Tome each midchapter and the timed levels additional to the chapters. But it might give them the space for less Chapter releases in the future without losing momentum. Maybe...
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I think Jason could move faster when not being looked at as he never seems to run. I don't think it would be awful to implement as we already have mechanics for being seen.
There is precedent in the films for him being able to break through walls to grab or likely here hit someone close on the other side. This might prove the hardest as sso much of so many maps would need to be made somewhat destructible. I think it would be an interesting mechanic in a chase. The killer thinks you are doubling back and stops to punch through the wall. If he misses he could be mad and hit a different part of the wall in anger kind of like missing with the chainsaw.
He has used many weapons in his films so maybe he could use different weapons with a different cooldown and reach. fast ones that put a timer on becoming injured without a slow down so you can get a couple people panicked and have them scatter. Something slower that insta downs and a middle ground. Perhap he could throw his main weapon for an instadown and have to go get it or be limited to hands only.
Maybe with his rage stunning him still works but gives him a small boost of a sort.
This is all off the cuff and im no game designer.
Post edited by Thrax on0 -
I think eventually we will have to see Killers with alternate win conditions (ie: not the hook). It'll just be tricky to implement.
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They could make a killer who can fly and have 0 terror radius, forcing survivors to look into the sky in fear whenever the ability activates. Maybe a Dracula type who turn into a swarm of bats. That would be new. Or a killer who swaps their position with a survivor after stalking them, perhaps also switching character models with them for a time. I think there are still plenty of open paths in the game.
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Flying won’t work in this game they’ve already tried it
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While I see where you’re coming from and maybe soon enough the devs will eventually run out of ideas without making it a whole other game, for the time being you have to give them credit for somehow being able to keep making killers with new powers and perks without visually burning out. My biggest fear for this game is it “dying” by the devs making a final chapter and knowing we’ll never get new killers and survivors. To some the devs have already burned out and are just remaking killers, but to me and a lot others, it’s still fresh and nice to see new chapters even if it’s a similar power. Always think of it like this, a certain killer can do what this killer can’t. That’s what separates them.
Legion can vault, other killers can’t
Nurse can go through walls, other killers can’t
Demigorgon can place portals and lunge really far, other killers can’t
Freddy can teleport to gens and place fake pallets, other killers can’t.
If you keep that mindset then really all killers are different :)
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Demogorgon also gets the undetectable ability, unlike hag, when teleporting to the portals, and also has shred, that is a long range attack at high speeds
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"Its only so many unique mechanics to work with"
Was OPs point, we've reached a point now where recycling abilities seem more likely than getting a something new and unique.
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Read the title and started imagining space man Killers and stuff. Maybe some robot Killers.
yeah, that's cool.
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