When People Complain About Being Slugged For A 4K
Comments
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The hatch is not meant to be a 50/50.
The hatch is meant to avoid a stale mate, where the last survivor keeps on hiding instead of trying to do generators, and the killer can't find him.
It is very much so that Devs even changed the mechanic so that the last survivor always gets the hatch to spawn - you don't need any generators done anymore.
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A 'fair chance'? So I'm supposed to LET them get the hatch by hooking the Survivor so he can kill himself?
There's that Survivor-biased narrative showing itself; Killers have to give Survivors every chance to escape or they are spiteful.
But Thrrun says it's OKAY to be spiteful, just feel ashamed of it when you do.
Funny how Survivors don't have to give Killers every chance to down & hook them. Nope. Only works one day. Only Killers can be spiteful. Not giving everyone a 'fair chance' is spiteful.
You're exactly the type of person I was parodying. Grats on proving my point.
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Yes the hatch stops the game being taken hostage. However it is meant to be a 50/50 chance for both killer and survivor. If it was not the case once number 3 died the game would start EGC without hatch at all.
:)
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50/50 means that you have equal probability to get the hatch.
In fact, if hatch already spawned and the killer go and search around the map, the survivor has 0% probability to get it.
Even if it doesn't spawn before the last survivor dies, the killer has still higher probability to find it just because of speed.
In other words: no, it's not a 50/50 mechanic, not from a deliberate stand point, not from a side effect either ^^
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Dwight, I think we should agree to disagree at this point and move on.
I have already said I know both sides can be spiteful to the other side. This discussion is just going nowhere at this point.
I stand by what I said. You stand by what you said. Let's leave it there. :)
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Except in that scenario you are talking about him wasting 2 perk slots on it, the survivors are getting it for free. I also do not like NOED however anyway, I think it gives undeserved kills.
"Slugging someone to stop someone else getting a fair chance is spiteful"
They are not being slugged to prevent a fair chance. They are being slugged to prevent an unfair chance. They already had their chance with 4 survivors to do 5 gens. Expecting another free chance is entitlement.
"You are also stopping another from moving on to another match, the guy on the floor."
Slugging is not stopping anyone from moving on to another match. What is stopping them from moving on is not saving their teammate or doing a gen and just hiding till they die.
"The fact remains the same, it's spiteful gameplay."
It is not spiteful in the least. That is entitlement.
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Let's try this version:
Letting your team mate die on hook or on the ground while you hide waiting for the hatch is spiteful. It's not just trying to win. You are denying someone a fair chance for your own personal gain. You are also stopping another from moving on to another match, the killer.
The fact remains the same, it's spiteful gameplay.
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It is in no way spiteful.
As a killer if I want to secure emblems maybe for an achievement maybe for the challenges I'm going to play the most efficient way to get there betting on a 50/50 percent chance is not efficient.
Even though I find it annoying if a survivor uses a key I don't consider it spiteful. Using a key gives them the highest probability to escape rather than trying to risk gens it's a 2-man situation for example.
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How would the killer know it spawned, yet the survivor not? If the killer happened to find it, that's fair. However if it's not open, what can be done.
Likewise if a survivor finds it first, but it's not open yet. What matters is when it opens who finds/gets to it first.
I agree.
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We're talking about the hatch.
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It is spiteful gameplay. If you slug number 3 to stop number 4 getting a chance at the hatch.
It does not matter the reason you do it, it's a spiteful thing todo. You yourself know you are doing it to stop them getting the hatch.
Again I will repeat, play the game how you want. But the fact remains the same it's spiteful gameplay.
Again I will say, both sides can be spiteful. Spiteful gameplay is not limited to only killers.
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Implying it spiteful it means that you did it specifically to go against the survivor however my emblem system doesn't give two craps about a 50/50 percent chance for the survivor.
If the 4th survivor is not dead I don't get my iridescent I don't gain bonus points because I gave the last survivor a chance.
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Sorry Blue, I only just read you post, was not ignoring it.
The game puts the hatch in to give 50/50.
You are the one who feels entitled to take that chance away. That's not how the game is meant to be or the hatch would not be in the game. Once number 3 died EGC would start. The same way it does when you close the hatch.
I am not entitled at all. It's not me who feels I have a right to crap on someone's chance. If you find the hatch and close it that's fair game. However slugging to stop it opening and risking number 4 getting there first is spiteful.
Once it's closed the survivor has to open the gates, without being found. If they are found, fair game. Not every game is perfect so it's unfair to say they already had enough chances but you somehow feel entitled todo so. And then don't like it being called out for what it is, spiteful.
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How would the killer know it spawned, yet the survivor not? If the killer happened to find it, that's fair. However if it's not open, what can be done.
The hatch spawns when the number of generators done are equal to the survivors alive plus one.
When two survivors are still alive, if 3 generators are done the hatch spawns, it's just closed.
Likewise if a survivor finds it first, but it's not open yet. What matters is when it opens who finds/gets to it first.
Until it opens it doesn't matter if the survivor knows where it is - if the killer finds it he can just hook the third survivor and camp the hatch to close it.
I agree.
If you agree on this, then you should also agree that a killer that tries to prevent this situation is not being spiteful.
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Your posts about "spiteful gameplay" have provided me with the most laughs I've ever had since joining this forum.
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Well if we are going down that road, then what about a survivors emblem? The one for escaping?
You are slugging number 3 to stop number 4. It's spiteful but does that mean you can't do it? No.
I never tried to say you can't do it, for whatever reason you want to. What I did do is point out it's spiteful gameplay. I stand by that. :)
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But...but....what about those SPITEFUL SURVIVORS denying killers their Gatekeeper emblem by doing gens?!
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"You are the one who feels entitled to take that chance away. That's not how the game is meant to be or the hatch would not be in the game"
You are missing the entire point. No one has said that wasn't how the game was meant to be. We are giving reasons why it should be changed. Also, just because something is in the game currently doesn't mean it's not bad and should be changed. I mean literally if that was the case why would the devs ever have patches changing anything about the game?
You are saying the hatch is fair because it's a 50/50. However, it is a 50/50 AFTER the survivors have already LOST. Should the last survivor to escape out the gates be blocked for a 50/50 chance in my scenario I presented? After all it's a 50/50, that's fair right? Expecting a hatch after you lost the game is extremely entitled.
". If you find the hatch and close it that's fair game. However slugging to stop it opening and risking number 4 getting there first is spiteful."
I don't see how you can't see the very flawed rational in this. It isn't spiteful, you are being entitled in this scenario.
What do you think of the scenario I presented about the gate blocking the last survivor? That is literally exactly what the survivors currently have. By your logic that is fair.
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at first when endgame collapse got added I slugged for the 4k but at this point who cares about 4ks anymore i most always just kill the third dude and if they find the hatch then no biggie
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By the way, here's what I usually do as a killer in those 2v1 situations and there's more than one generator left.
I search around for survivors, if I find one I go for the chase, and slug him if it's not his first hook (if it's his first, I hook him and go as far away as possible).
At this point I go around and see if other generators were worked on while I was chasing the third survivor. If they weren't I, once again, go as far away as possible from the slugged survivor.
When the slugged survivor is finally healed, I go in search of the survivors again - if I find the same survivor, I'll just follow him without downing him.
If the survivor gives up the chase, I'll just let him understand it's not him that I want.
Eventually I will find the stealthy survivor, hook him, and let the first one live.
So yeah, I deliberately didn't want a survivor to escape, because he wasn't a team player.
Fortunately that's not usually what happens because I always go against Team 6 SWF groups and they just escape through a key.
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I agreed with your second post about a spiteful survivor throwing their team mate under a bus. I just quoted both in one post, maybe it did not show.
Yes and likewise survivors know that same information about the hatch after so many gens. Just because the killer knows the same thing does not mean they are being unfair.
As for a killer camping the hatch, I have seen both sides do this. I have seen the both of them literally on the hatch when it opens. In this case it's a luck game. I have seen both a survivor get out and another time the killer slam it shut. However no one of them is doing something that puts the odds in their favour.
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Which is why I brought up the key scenario it's not spiteful to use a key.
If I want to escape I typically have no care on whether my method of escape makes the killer feel happy or not I don't do it to actively spite them but if I want my emblem I have to escape whether that's with a key so be it
Post edited by Volfawott on2 -
Ok we might be on a different page to each other. I have been talking about why slugging number 3 to stop number 4 is spiteful. However you said you are talking about why the hatch should be removed. Two completely different things.
I did not see what you said about the gate being blocked, have read it back now. In the scenario you said, no that would not fair. Because killers can indeed pull survivors off the gate switch or down them. In fact I see many a time where that happens, or noed comes into play.
If as a killer, once the gates were powered it was over, you could not do anything, I would agree. It should also be pointed out there is a perk to block said gates. I have forgotten the name but I'm sure you know it.
The fact is, it does not matter if you think that survivor deserves a chance at the hatch, the game gives them that chance. You have to play in a spiteful way to stop it. Because that's your entitlement, you feel you know better then how the game has been designed.
Yes of course they change things in a patch, if they remove said hatch, this will all be moot.
:)
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So you’re telling me you want to crawl on the ground and admire floor graphics while the killer searches the map for the immersed Blendette that isn’t going to save you?
You are doing NOTHING for four minutes but crawling around and waiting to bleed out while the last guy hides. That’s why survivors hate slugging.
As others have stated...I’d rather be camped on the hook than slugged. At least your teammates can do gens as opposed to the last guy hiding while the killer sweats his ass off looking for them.
There is nothing wrong with slugging if the time calls for it. Repeatedly slugging one of the last two survivors to find the other immersed one is not fun for either side. Unless you’re going for an adept achievement I don’t get the point.
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The fact is, it does not matter if you think that survivor deserves a chance at the hatch, the game gives them that chance. You have to play in a spiteful way to stop it. Because that's your entitlement, you feel you know better then how the game has been designed.
We have already agreed that the hatch is not designed for a 50/50, it's designed to avoid a stale mate.
There's no entitlement to try to kill everyone - you are not robbing anyone, you play for your win, not for their loss.
There are spiteful ways to play, of course, but trying hard for the 4k is not one of those - essentially because being spiteful (camping the slugged / hooked survivor, for example) will 100% net you the loss of the 4th survivor, if the hatch is not already beside you - meaning you are not trying hard for the 4k.
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3 kills and a hatch escape is a win to me. I only think if it as a loss if a survivor escapes through the exit gates.
I’ve had three survivors escape via the hatch multiple times. Darn I guess I got outplayed and beaten.
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That is true...
Doesn’t mean either side is going to enjoy it though.
Survivors will never enjoy slugging, getting camped, getting tunneled, or getting moried.
Killers aren’t going to enjoy getting blinded, looped, pallet stunned, or getting teabagged at the exit gates.
Doesn’t matter either way...just move on to the next game and get over it. I’ve gone through everything imaginable in this game and I typically forget about it the next day. There are only a few REALLY bad instances that stick out.
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Oh, and what about killers that have 3 generators one near the other with 2 survivors left and refuse to chase them on the opposite side of the map - are killers being spiteful as well?
Because that's basically the same thing, you're not being slugged but there's still nothing you can do, especially against certain killers.
..plus by playing this way the time it will take for the game to end is virtually infinite, if survivors don't try to do generators and the killer refuses to leave the area.
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No Edys, I said, I agreed the hatch stops the game being taken hostage.
However I do believe the hatch is meant to be a 50/50 chance. So I think you have misread or got my posts mixed up. :)
When I said I agree it was quoting your post about a survivor being spiteful.
Yes it's entitlement to feel you have a right to take a chance away just because you think it's bad game design. The fact a killer has to slug number 3 just to stop number 4 right there is spiteful gameplay. We have already established from some but not all posters on this thread that they do so to stop number 4 getting the hatch, because they don't think they deserve a fair chance at getting the hatch, for reasons they have stated.
No one is going to stop doing it, I'm not on a mission to try and make anyone stop. I just stated it is in fact spiteful gameplay. Because I thought that's what this thread was about. Slugging number 3 to stop number 4 and opinions surrounding that subject.
:)
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hatch:
ok let's try again then - the hatch is meant to avoid a stale mate, from a design point of view. If it was meant to be a 50/50 escape for the last survivor then the only way to ensure that is to let the hatch spawn only when there's only one survivor left.
If it spawns before, as it is, it's not a 50/50 game by definition, because:
- if survivors have a key, it's 100% a survivor game
- if no key and killers find the hatch, they can close it and it's a 100% killer game
That's not something up to debate Thrrun, that's really all that there's to say.
In fact, you think about the hatch being a 50/50 because you are considering scenarios where neither the killer nor the survivor know where the hatch is - evidence being that you find spiteful if the killer search for the hatch before it opens.
But this thinking is like playing Monopoly and telling your friends "if you don't leave at least one Train Station for me you are being spiteful". ######### :P
slug n°3 to stop n° 4 is spiteful:
that's a straw man argument - you are not slugging n° 3 to stop n° 4, you are slugging n° 3 to kill everyone.
I don't eat hamburgers because I despise cows and want them to be killed, I get cows killed because I like to eat hamburgers.
...but maybe you are a vegan, and this example will prove I'm being spiteful :P
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It depends how you slugged for the 4k. If a killer downs one of the last two survivors and see the other one straight away, then I don't really fault the killer too much for chasing at that point. Because it makes sense to do so.
But if you slug one survivor, and go off looking for the last one for several minutes, then yes I consider that sweaty behavior. Because now you're basically saying I want complete and total victory. Which is fine when it happens naturally, but when you go to extreme measures to achieve it then that's pretty lame.
You don't have to play hardcore in order to rank up or earn a significant sum of blood points.
This game already has enough balance issues, there's no need to treat each match so seriously.
Lastly, not all survivors are as sweaty as you think. There are some that avoid certain tactics in order to make the match more fun and interactive for the killer.
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Umm, I never said the killer looking for the hatch was spiteful.
I answered this already. You asked me about this and also killer camping said hatch. I answered what you asked.
I also have said on here if the killer finds it and closes it, that's fair game. You saying if they close it, because they find it before number 4, it's 100% the killers game but we are not talking about after it's closed, we are on about it being there and open. As I said if a killer finds it and closes it that's fair. Likewise if a survivor finds it and gets out, that's fair. The game gives that chance but yet some killers disagree with it so much they have to play in a spiteful way to make sure number 4 never gets that chance.
Why are you ignoring what I have already answered? :/
The hatch is in the game to give 50/50 it only opens when there is only 1 survivor left. If it was not meant to be a chance for that last survivor it would not open. EGC would just start as soon as number 3 was dead, like it does now when the killer closes the hatch. Again I have already said this. :)
Opening it with a key is a totally different subject. Because this post was about slugging number 3 to make sure number 4 did not get the hatch. If they have a key this is all totally moot, for that survivor with the key. If you want to talk about keys, I'm happy todo so but not here as it will derail.
:)
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So you just said a 4K is okay, but not if I try for it? It has to be by luck?
..If you honestly believe that's how the game should be played, then you're in for disappointment.
Killer's don't have to let Survivors go just because the last 2 were not within view of eachother, and it's not tryhard, sweaty, unfair, or spiteful if the Killer slugs to go looking.
Christ, this player base sometimes. 4K's are only okay if it's 'natural'. smh
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I'm not ignoring what you say - it's that what you say is simply not the subject, it's a straw man argument as I already stated.
You think that the hatch mechanics is to give the survivor the chance to escape, and that's it. But that's not the case anymore - the hatch mechanic (not the hatch itself) is there to avoid a stale mate, meaning that yes, both killer and survivor can still win, but it's not "50/50".
If the killer search for the hatch to close it before it opens, by camping it, you are not bypassing any game mechanic, exactly as survivors using a key. And no, a survivor cannot take the hatch if a competent killer finds it before it opens.
As for the "if it was just to avoid a stale mate then just activate EGC altogether", again, this doesn't prove anything - Devs decided that you could still escape through the hatch, giving the survivor one more opportunity other than the doors and add pressure for the killer (hence the slugging to find the hatch ;) ), it doesn't deduct from it being an anti-stale mate mechanic.
By using your logic I could say that if Devs wanted a 50/50 chance for the last survivor to escape they could have the killer and survivor being teleported to a table where they have to play a game of rock-paper-scissor ;)
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It's not a straw man argument. The hatch is 50/50 if the killer finds it before it opens that means very little. Most killers will see the hatch during gameplay. Not all the time obviously.
Likewise if a survivor finds it before it opens it means very little. They know where it is but the game carries on. If the killer wants to stop and camp it, fine, gens get done. Game over.
If a survivor wants to camp it, fine, good chance killer will find you before it opens and boom. Game over.
The hatch is 50/50 at the point it opens. You adding stuff in does not change that. If a killer finds it an closes it. Fair game. If a survivor finds it an gets out. Fair game.
If both killer and survivor know where it is, it's who gets there first or hits it first. You yourself have just said the devs decided to give the hatch as one more opportunity to that last survivor as a way of escape. Yet you seem to defend a killer using spiteful gameplay to not let that last survivor have that given chance by the devs? Or am I reading that wrong?
Just because the hatch being closed starts EGC does not mean that it's not meant to be a 50/50 chance. The fact EGC does not start until it's closed tells us that. They know the chance of the killer getting it or the last survivor is 50/50.
Even after all this Edys, the point remains the same. Slugging number 3 to stop number 4 getting a chance at the hatch is spiteful gameplay.
:)
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Listen, I really can't explain any better the situation, I see where you stop understanding what is wrong with your reasoning, what I don't see is why.
Maybe it's a problem of communication, maybe it's a lack of experience in the game, I don't know. You'll eventually get it, take care ^^
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I think it's more we have very different opinions on the matter tbh. As do alot of people on any subject.
I agree that this conversation has stopped going anywhere though. I have been playing this game for years. As I'm sure you have. That really has nothing todo with it. :)
You take care too. :)
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If you are being slugged and the other survivor is hiding waiting for you to die and you don’t want to wait to bleed out; crawl towards them, they will have to do something and the game will end quickly :)
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EGC apparantly equals an instant win. (SARCASM)
A killer closing the hatch isnt as good as a survivor jumping it.
Calling it a 50/50 may only apply to the chance of finding it first, but ignores the consequences.
Also survivors can simply prepare for the killer closing it, it's rather popular.
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I don't really know why killers think a 4k is that important. You are liable to waste several minutes slugging one of the last survivors. That's not fun for either side. Not to mention, by that point you probably have 25k+ blood points and a pip. Why sweat so hard over the last kill and 1000 extra blood points?
But if you insist on a 4k, then don't complain when you come across the ultra sweaty tryhard survivors.
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I dislike being slugged while my teammate is trying desperately to survive. Even as a killer I don't typically slug survivors to get a 4k, I just hook the last survivor and go look for the hatch. If they get it, good on them, if I get it, time to patrol exit gates.
There's no point in playing the game in such a way that would make it less fun for others. It's just a game. Play it to have fun, not think you're better than others just because you can get a 4k.
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Its so much fun lying on the floor while the killer searches high and low for that last survivor.
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People complain because it's boring and tends to drag games out for a ridiculous amount of time. I never slug for a 4k unless I can actually see the 4th person and think I can down them reasonably quick. It's just not worth drawing the game out when there's already a mercy rule in the form of a hatch. I see so many killers try it and the game ends up lasting 15-20 minutes. Just stupidly long for maybe an extra pip. Slugging for a 4k when you don't have eyes on the 4th has always struck me as a noobish thing. Once you have experience, you know hatch spawn locations and have a very good chance of getting the 4th in less than half the time it would take to slug the 3rd and find the 4th.
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It does suck to be slugged while the killer looks for the other person. But its also the killer wanting to insure a pip, as its far more difficult for the killer to do that then the survivor. The emblems need to be altered is the main thing, especially with the Devs wanting two survivors to escape and two to die, and yet the emblems do not match that expectation.
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Three killls usually is either a safety pip or a pip, getting a 4k isn't always a guaranteed double pip though. You also need to millk the survivors dry of emblem points.
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Like I was saying, its just harder to pip as a killer.
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Getting the hatch and prolonging the game by forcing someone to stay down is not the same thing.
Escape isn't important, yes. Which is why having fun is more important to me. So if a killer or survivor group is playing to win, using tactics that hinders the other side's gameplay, I'll just not play most likely.
I'll either AFK or suicide dive into the killer because I'm not playing a game where the other side clearly doesn't want to play for fun, but play to win.
A 4k also shouldn't be an indication of "winning". Because you can still 4k and get an Entity Displeased with the current emblem system. And while I'm saying that, neither should escaping be an indication of "winning".
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No one said "let the last guy go". I don't slug for the 4k and I still get 4ks. Sometimes the survivor gets lucky and makes it to the hatch first, sometimes I do. Slugging for the 4k is only for people who don't have confidence to get a 4k by their own skill.
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That's the wrong way to look at it.
For starters, a lot of survivors are okay with dying at least half of their games. I don't encounter many survivors with a mentality like "I'm going to do everything I can to escape this game". And I play a lot of survivor in red ranks, so I have a decent understanding of how these guys think..
Also, the hatch game is usually in the killer's favor.
Let's say the killer kills the third survivor and now there's only one survivor left. The killer stands a better chance of finding the hatch than the survivor. And once the killer closes the hatch, it really depends on exit gate RNG at that point. It could go either way, which seems pretty reasonable to me.
That doesn't seem like survivor entitlement in my view. Because as killer, you're giving the survivor a sporting chance. You'll probably still kill them, but at least they have a shot now.
And what's the worst that can happen? The last survivor escapes and you as the killer lose very little as a result. And some other player was able to earn a small victory.
As killer, you probably wouldn't feel very good if you had to play against a full SWF team, with voice comms, meta perks, broken item and add ons, and map offerings.
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It's something I refuse to do as killer because as a survivor being slugged is just wasting the survivors time when you could just hook them so they could move on to the next game. If it would rarely happen I probably wouldn't mind, but when it becomes common happening every couple of games it becomes highly annoying.
I wish there was an option to just give up while on the ground and the entity takes you, sorta like the end game collapse. Would make things so much easier and you wouldn't need to DC and the killer would still get the sacrifice.
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