Oni has Counterplay
So I've seen posts from people claiming that Oni still has no counterplay. Which is why I wanted to make a thread explaining why I don't think this is the case with Oni. Just going through a list of counterplay possibilities Oni has in my opinion. At the bottom is a short summary of the counterplay I think Oni has.
Frirst of all, the classic counterplay of using pallet and window loops exist, and I am surprised people think those are no counterplay. While dashing, Oni can not turn more than 90 degrees at once, and that is only if he has enough space to turn while strafing so when he needs to turn 90 degree he is already looking in the direction while strafing. That's why there is a difference if he is dashing at you from farther away while you are at one of these pallet loops, or if he is already standing right on the other side of the loop.
If the case is the former one, than it's a bit harder to avoid his lunge at the end because he'll be able to strafe for longer and get into a better position to turn tighter. If survivors are already at the loop, it forces survivors to try and predict which side he will dash along to run around the other side in order to gain enough distance to avoid his lunge. In most cases you will be able to tell early enough which side he will dash along though.
If Oni starts his dash while already being at the loop, most loops are not long enough for him to properly turn into the direction he wants to turn while strafing. If loops are rather wide on all sides or more circle shaped, his dash is useless at those loops. For example the pickup truck loops on Autoheaven Wrecker maps.
However, if the loops are very narrow, only having two long sides, like certain rubble loops on the Autoheaven maps, he can dash, and when he needs to turn about 180 degrees, do a 180 degree flick, which can hit a survivor thanks to the range. I don't think this is uncounterable, instead you just need to try and predict which side he'll dash along, since his charge has a set amount of activation time, so you can run in time to gain enough distance to him when he uses his lunge. His flick I believe will be nerfed though so he probably won't be able to do 180 degree flicks anymore anyways.
However, his dash is very loop dependent. It can be very good at jungle gyms, but survivors still have counterplay by taking tight corners he can't turn to, depending from where he is dashing. Loops in general can be used against him though, no doubt. At loops like the T-L wall for example, his dash is pretty useless. On the other hand, long window loops that are normally brokenly safe, like the two Windows loop of Wretched Shop, are useless against him since he always has enough distance to strafe at each side of the shop, so when he reaches a 90 degree turn, he'll be able to look in the direction he needs to turn to thanks to his strafing.
What does make him very strong is that he can break pallets a bit faster and then catch up to survivors with his dash. Survivors do get some distance to him though while he breaks the pallet, giving them the potential to reach another loop, since loops are generally close to each other. If you are at a loop at which he needs to run you around, you can try and react to him charging his lunge when he thinks you are dropping the pallet, simply continuing with the loop and not dropping the pallet so he lunges at nothing. This can be a bit of a mindgame if he's close enough though, since it's also possible for him to charge his lunge and hit you if he predicts that you are not going to drop the pallet.
However, in the cases of him breaking a pallet and dashing towards you, your counterplay as a survivor does depend on what kind of a loop you are running to, how far exactly the loop is from the previous loop, from what direction you are running to the loop and from which direction the Oni is dashing, since these loops can have very different structures, and have an impact on how likely you can dodge Oni's dash lunge. But maps have always had an impact on how much counterplay you have as survivor against any killer. This is why you could consider Shelter Woods to be really good for Oni, while he struggles on maps like Lerys.
There is more counterplay. If you don't have any near pallet or window loops, and Oni is dashing at you, you still can use objects to run in the direction he is coming from along the other side of the object, so he is forced to stop his dash, suffer a 1 second cooldown and then chase you normally. Of course he'll most likely still get you, but there's a small chance that this does help you reach a loop you wouldn't otherwise have reached, and even if you don't reach another loop, you are still wasting more time of him, which is exactly your goal as a survivor.
Also, in some surroundings, you can try and lose him, which can be huge since his power doesn't last that long. If he doesn't down any survivor with the use of his power, then that's a huge momentum shifter and can really hurt Oni.
And then there is of course also stealth. If you hear his power go off, you definitely need to be more cautious and try and hide from him as long as possible. The longer he doesn't find a survivor, the more his power is wasted.
I have seen people complain that there is very little potential to outrun him long enough to outlive his power duration. This is true, no doubt, at least if he finds a survivor early enough after activating his power. In the majority of the cases, you won't be able to survive long enough against a good Oni until his power depletes. But this needs to be like this. If there was a 50/50 chance of Oni not being able to down anyone before his power deactivated, he would be really bad. He's really weak without his power, and having to collect Blood Orbs, while not being able to down survivors 50% of the time he uses his power, only to continue to have to collect more Blood Orbs to get your power up again, would be awful for the obvious reason that he would not be able to combat gen speed at all.
This is another important aspect to keep in mind. A killer needs both good chase potential and good map pressure to combat the fast gen times, and Oni has very good chase potential and map pressure while his power is up, but doesn't have this while his power is not active. That's why I think he is very well balanced at the moment. His chase potential and map pressure is really good, but he does have that counterplay to him so that survivors skill can affect the outcome of the match. I do think it's fine that his flick will get a small nerf via the bug fix, but that's the only change his power needs in my opinion.
The one change I would like to see is to have a down remove like 13 or 14 seconds of his power instead of 7, and instead hooking survivors now drops 8 or 10 Blood Orbs instead of 2, so his slugging potential is not quite as good as it is now. I think this change is needed since being slugged frequently is just not fun.
The reason I made this post is because Oni is probably my new favorite killer, and I don't want him to be nerfed so that he becomes unviable. This is my opinion of course, and what counterplay I believe he has.
I hope my explanations are understandable, since English isn't my native language so I struggle with explanations often.
Short Summary of the Counterplay he has:
- Using Pallet and window loops while understanding how much he can turn while dashing and lunging, dependent on the size and structure of the loop (explained in paragraphs 2-8)
- Wasting as much time by using and running around any kind of objects to force him out of his dash (paragraph 9)
- stealth and losing the killer(this is normal counterplay against any killer but it's more important against Oni since his power only lasts a certain time)
Comments
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I don't think he is overpowered, but is definitely annoying to play against.
When your team feeds him some easy M1s and you are the recipient of his power it feels bad, similar to your team being able to feed myers stalk and then you are the one who eats the 99% tier 3 even though you haven't seen him the entire game.
It's super hard to avoid his power unless you have a safe pallet nearby.
That's why I am not liking him so far, he is way too pub-stompy. Good survivors who can loop and stop his M1 and he will get dunked but if your team is feeding him? There's very little you can do about it.
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Yeah this can be a bit frustrating, the same as with Myers like you said. But it's not often a problem in my opinion. At least he has an activation time so I can try and prepare for his power, unlike Myers who just pops his power right behind you and downs you one second later.
Personally though, despite this, I really enjoy going against him. He's a lot of fun and can't just be looped like many other killers in many scenarios.
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The Oni can rotate faster than intended with the keyboard or joystick during Demon Dash.
This nerf would fix the issue I guess. A strong high tier killer(Maybe Top Tier) after a long time :D
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my only issue with him is how he gets his power. the blood orbs are so annoying and its just free tracking. I wish it was just based on hitting people in general to get his power, not collecting orbs from players who have no means to heal (since self care isnt meta; and if you are a solo player getting someone to heal you/finding someone to heal you isnt the easiest) Its very much a killer you need SWF to counterplay well. Not solo friendly.
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Yes exactly. I'm not sure what this means exactly, but my guess is that it refers to the insane flick Oni can do at the moment.
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He can curve around some insanely tight objects currently. I've seen Oni's who can curve around the entire cow tree and it's honestly stupid. Nothing you can do about it if the pallet is gone.
I'm not sure how they are doing it though because I don't play him. But I've seen some pretty absurd curves so far, with basically nothing the survivor can do about them except die. The only thing keeping him balanced is how he is super weak at the start and needs 2 M1s to get rolling.
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Wait curving around the entire cow tree? I mean with his dash he can probably go around the entire tree, though he won't be turning very tight. I think the turning of his dash is perfectly fine and should not be changed in any way. Unless you can also turn tighter during your dash when using left and right by binding those two actions to e and q. But I haven't noticed that myself. Also, Cow Tree isn't very useful against any killer once the pallet is gone, and that shouldn't be any other way. Him being a bit better at Cow Tree than other killers is definitely not a problem, he needs to be good in chases because his power is on a time limit, otherwise he's useless.
It's the flick with his lunge that he can do that will probably be nerfed. At least that's what can be made much better when binding left and right to q and e. Turning with mouse and q and e can stack, which I guess is the problem that's being fixed. Not sure about that though.
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I mean aside from the tracking ability he does not have anything when not having his power, so I think it's fine. I can understand that it can feel a bit harder when you are playing as solo, but I never really had too much of a problem finding other survivors when I need healing, and it's not that bad if you are forced to stay injured as well. Once the limit of 100 Orbs is reached, older orbs start to get replaced anyways.
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I didn't know people actually believed Oni didn't have counters..that's shocking. Especially since his biggest counter is quite literally the exact same counter as almost every other killer in the game..pallet looping.
Most my games against him at rank 1 he's been destroyed. I think he could even use some small buffs honestly.
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I've escaped in at least half my games against Oni. The people who struggle against Billy are going to struggle against Oni. Don't sit on a gen when you hear him roar and start dashing. Bait him into rushing you at a pallet and then start to loop it. He can't hit you off a straight line charge unless you move way too late and get hit by the flick. When you are looping him, pay attention to which side of map your back is to when you go to drop a pallet. Don't drop a pallet when the Oni is between you and the middle of the map. You need to be towards the middle of the map when you drop the pallet so you can ideally get a stun and run to another pallet. A lot of survivors really lack positional awareness and get themselves caught in dead zones when they don't have to. You need to think about the next pallet/window just as much as you're thinking about the current one against Oni.
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So all you have as counterplay is the same "obvious gameplay" as against 99% of other killers?
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While I personally don't think he needs any buffs either, I am surprised as well. Unless somebody shows me a video that shows how his power makes all kinds of pallet loops useless for survivors, I have a hard time believing this. And I'm a bit scared he'll get nerfed in any significant way making him much less powerful.
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I don't know how they are doing it, I should record one the next time I see it. But I've seen oni's do like complete 90+ degree turns mid demon dash, basically totally changing direction and being able to get around a ton of objects.
From what I have seen you are basically boned if there is no safe pallet nearby. Sort of like billy but at least billy you can juke the saw much easier and there's no insane curves without add-ons and a lot of skill.
And yes cow tree isn't safe once the pallet is gone, but with Oni you can see him far off the distance and 2 seconds later he curves around the cow tree and nails you for the 1 shot. No other killer is going to do that.
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Yeah I don't really see the issues people have with him. Seems fine to me on survivor. I just loop him like everyone else.
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Uhm is there a problem? I mean sure you could say it's the same counterplay as against any other killers. But his power does help him in chases which is why I wanted to explain how exactly you can counter him, despite loops in general not being as strong against him than against other weaker killers that don't have an ability that helps in chases. I've seen some people say he has no counterplay, so that's why I made this post.
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Yeah I know, it's because he can strafe. So you can move in one direction but look in another direction 90 degrees to your side, which allows him to do 90 degree turns. I'm sorry but without this he would be rather bad. That's what makes his chase potential good, but I've attempted to explain how you can still counterplay him in my thread.
For example, you can move and turn your camera seperately as Oni when he is dashing. So I could run in one direction while slowly turning my camera to another direction, up to 90 degrees. But that turning is slow, that's why Oni can only turn this much if he has enough distance he covers while dashing before turning. Once he turned 90 degree for example, he can't turn another 90 degree right away, which means any additional turn you make forces him out of his dash, unless he's already close enough to hit his lunge.
That's why his counterplay can be loop dependent. If you've got multiple objects around you, you can run around them taking multiple sharp turns, and often that means Oni would have to make multiple sharp turns to keep up with you, which is why he is forced out of his dash in those cases. You do have to be very cautious when he has his power active, since it can go very fast. But that's what makes him viable.
Don't forget, if you can outrun a killer for a long time no matter the skill of the killer, the killer is not viable. If there was a 50/50 chance that Oni would not down a survivor during one use of his power, he'd be pretty damn bad, because Oni is extremely weak when he doesn't have his power active.
I think you would get a better understanding of how to counter him if you understand how he works, so playing him yourself or watching others play him to understand how exactly his power works can be really helpful to understand how to counterplay him.
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People who complain Oni has no counter play are the people who run in a straight line against billy or demo
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+1
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I agree with one thing you said and disagree with the rest.
Due to him getting a nerf on how quickly he can destroy pallets and recover, it has gave suriviors enough to extend the chase to give their allies enough time to do gens. So the pallets and vaults are now an actual counterplays as long as the surivior is lucky with there rng and there are pallets near by.
However, sleath isn't a counter because there are add ons and perks Oni can use to counter it.
Running around on objects also isn't a valid counter because of you customise your control in pc you are capable of doing a 180 degrees turn(before the nerf he could do a 360 degree turn). So pretty much if the oni user is skilled enough he can hit you from any angle, just like a Hibiily player if the position themselves correctly. I guess you can say it's also counter play if you are up against someone not skilled at using him.
So there really is only one actual counter (pallets, vaults and e.t.c) which kind of rely on rng for the pallets or Windows to be near each other before the time oni can catch up to you.
So in some cases people can say there is no counter play because it relies on luck with the pallets(also the killer not destroying pallets that are near each other from another surivior looping him), but in the same time there is counter play.
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Yeah, his counterplay is humping safe pallets and not getting M1'd. I can only control one of those in solo Q. And depending on the map RNG, there might not even be that many safe pallets. Oni on shelter woods is kind of a joke.
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But while dashing he can only do a 90 degree turn at once at the most. And after that, he can't immediately turn another 90 degree, which is why I would say at most pallet loops his dash doesn't help. Like, he can only do 180 degree turns with his lunge, but once he gets in the position where he needs to lunge to turn and get the survivor at a pallet loop, the survivor should be able to have gained enough distance from that exact position where Oni is forced to lunge from.
If the loops are big enough on all four sides, then he can dash around the entire loop despite the inferior turning, but few loops are actually big enough to allow that. T-L walls for example, that's where his dash is pretty weak, but of course it comes down to mindgames. I would argue that Oni has counterplay at loops like jungle gyms, but that doesn't mean survivors don't have any counterplay at those loops. Wretched Shop's two windows loop however, that's a loop you can not run against Oni since every side of the shop is long enough so he can turn and position himself to turn 90 degrees whenever he has to.
Of course when you try using multiple loops that connect to each other, things get a lot more complicated, but he still has counterplay in my opinion.
Also, I wouldn't say stealth is no counterplay to Oni because of addons and perks. Sure there are perks that allow Oni to have counterplay against your stealth, but again this doesn't mean stealth is no counterplay. Sure there are probably a few situations with BBQ and Chili where the perk pretty much hardcounters your stealth, but all in all stealth can still work. Also, I know which addon you are talking about, but that only works when Oni does not have his power activated. He doesn't see Blood Orbs when his power is active.
Personally, I feel like he has enough counterplay for survivors to extend chases long enough to have a good chance to win. But he does allow for mindgames at loops other killers couldn't mindgame at, which gives him also more counterplay in chases. But I don't feel like his power removes the counterplay survivors have.
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Well I would have to disagree here, I do believe he has more counterplay than just those two options you've given.
I agree that Shelter Woods is particularly good for him, but on the other hand, he also has maps he is very weak on, especially Lerys.
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of course he has conterplay starting for the fact he is an m1 without any ability early game were can be looped till daylight if u are kinda decent. he basically is the weakest killer in the game at early a bunch of decent survivors should do a couple of gens with good looping before he can use his ability for first time. he IS FAR AWAY from being OP, he doesnt need any kinf of nerf if any buffs becasue how bad he is at red ranks because of early game. and talking about his dash, use corners. corners are the counter and play him if u play him u know what he can turn and what he can NOT turn. far away from being OP in that regard, however he is god from yellow ranks to purple ranks and against fake red ranks A tier. is fine nothing to crazy.
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Before anyone says any killer is OP or Doesn't have counter play or anything of that nature they should show us a video of them going against that killer
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Funny thing is BBQ doesn't hard counter stealth, there's this lovely thing called LOCKERS and every very rarely have I ever not been able to make it to a locker before a hook is completed
What this boils down to is survivors just want to need every damn killer into the ground.
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"The classic counterplay of pallets and windows."
More than half the cast of the killers move at the same speed as him and have to deal with pallets and windows WITHOUT being able to cross the entire map, one hit down, have almost 100% uptime on those abilities and have insane control over them, and they get by.
Arguing that a killer with an ridiculous potential for a very low skill requirement like Oni has is balanced because "windows and pallets exist" is just naive.
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Yes because running pallet to pallet to god loop is sooooo skillful. Lol your pallets and your windows are your counter play. Oni power isnt that good LITERALLY all you gotta do is hide when you hear him roar, if you get caught out without cover that's on you, you know when he uses his ability, it goes across the entire map.
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Rather have him than spirit
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He can still turn in a 180 degree if you customise your control.
There is also Monto a YouTuber/steamer on dead by daylight who shown the Oni being able to adjust the direction he is moving at. They slightly nerf it to where it doesnt turn instantly like it did before, but you can still turn it to a 180 degree angle, just slower.
I don't disagree much on certain loops with his demon dash activated. But he is still capable of using his one shot power with the extra lunge it provide, making it still deadly with or without loop.
There at perks such as strioder and whisper killers can use to locate suriviors. If the oni is a smart player he can save enough blood to enter his demon dash. Then use the blood orbs to locate a surivior before entering it.
His power isn't uncounterable (depending on how good the oni and the map's rng), but it is very hard and relies on a lot of pallets with mind game able loops (Then again the killer chances of winning the mind game is way higher and fatal than the surivior).
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Yeah he can dash around loops like jungle gyms if they are big enough, I agree. It's hard to tell how much counterplay Oni has at every loop. In this case the clip you showed me of Dwight getting downed at the jungly gym, I do feel like he could have taken the inner loop of the jungle jym. Oni would not have been able to turn during his dash tight enough meaning at the corner where the window is, he would have had to use his lunge, and in this case I think Dwight would have been far enough away to not get hit by the lunge anymore.
Also, if the Dwight in that clip would have only had a slightly bigger distance to Oni, he would have probably not be hit by that 180 degree lunge anymore. That's what I mean with the possible counterplay against Oni even at jungle gyms, and why I wrote that counterplay is dependent on the distance between you as a survivor and the Oni when reaching another loop, from which direction you are approaching the loop and from which direction the Oni is dashing towards the loop.
And at most of the normal pallet loops that maps have many of, his dash simply doesn't turn tight enough to be a help at those. In those cases his strength comes from when he can break the pallet because he can catch up quicker thanks to his dash. But as I said, it's important for him to be really strong when his power is up and have a good chance of downing a survivor, or he'd end up as another unviable killer.
I'm not sure if you are referring to the actual dash, or the lunge after the dash though. I'm not sure if this true, but I saw a video of ScottJund where he said that they want to restrict the lunge after his dash to turn a maximum of 90 degree, so downs like the one against Dwight shown in the video won't be possible anyways anymore. Maybe I understood him wrong though, and I don't know where he has that information from.
Among known issues there is also this:
"The Oni can rotate faster than intended with the keyboard or joystick during Demon Dash."
I'm gonna guess this is referring to his flick at the end of his dash.
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Him being able to traverse the map extremely quickly and his one shot down potential doesn't really affect how his dash is at loops. That's map pressure and being able to down a survivor with one hit, not two. Yes his map pressure is extremely good, but outside of his power, it's awful, which balances his power in my opinion.
I also do not think it is true that he has almost 100% uptime on his power, unless survivors go down like 5 seconds after he activates his power, and that every time he activates it. He definitely needs to spend time in his normal weak form as well when facing good survivors.
I also disagree that has insane control over his dash. It's far better than Billy, no doubt, but it's not good. The turning is not good enough for his dash to help against normal pallet loops. He needs a strong power since it isn't active all the time, or he'd just be another unviable killer. I get that his chase and map pressure is really good, but it's awful when he doesn't have his power.
I explained in my thread post though why I think survivors do have counterplay at loops against him and how they can prolong chases enough to waste enough of his power to have a good chance at winning against a good Oni, and how one of the main differences to some other killers is that he also has counterplay at some loops. He's definitely strong, but because of his downtime where he has almost no power at all I think he is balanced. His flick will be nerfed though I believe due to a bug making it better than intended, so that's something.
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Just go to corner of the map, where Oni won't go and teabag so every single blood orb respawn there and he has no power. Easy counterplay.
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The true counterplay is complain to the Devs so they nerf him.
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A counterplay shouldn't really be dependent on something to happen for you to counter it. It should be something that is clear and can be countered by the killer, not a what if situation. Otherwise spirirt wouldn't have been nerf.
Obviously, it's easy to tell people how to improve if you are watching them. The killer putting pressure on them by the constant thought of if you mess up once you are dead could easily lead to rank 1 players making mistakes like that (in fact they do).
I'm referencing his lunge attack not demon dash where it grants him the extra boost of distance, similar to leatherface when using his chainsaw.
Scott Jund mention thay his turn got nerf, but you can still pull of a 180 degrees turn with a customise keyboard. I don't know rather he is talking about base keyboard or customise.
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Yeah it is a reference to his flick in the end which is why his turning got nerf.
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Well I'm not saying that it's totally dependent on certain what if conditions whether you can counterplay Oni or not, but that it affects his counterplay. Maps in general have many loops though, a lot of them close together, so survivors do often have some kind of counterplay. From my experience though, it's just that Oni has counterplay as well, turning some loops into a bit of a mindgame.
Also, to be fair, if you can see a way to how you could have countered Oni in a video, than that shows that he does have counterplay in that situation. I do get that it's impossible for the Dwight to have known to do this, but that's the point. Oni doesn't necessarily have to rely on survivors making mistakes, he has his own counterplay against survivors, while the survivors still also have counterplay against Oni. So it can turn a bit into a mindgame as to how to dodge Oni when he is dashing at you, forcing survivors to try and predict his actions and act accordingly to their predictions. So yeah, I understand that it's hard for survivors in situations like the situation that Dwight was in in the video, but if you can spot counterplay, than that means the survivor did have counterplay in that situation.
In another video of Scottjund, he did say that the devs wanted to restrict his flick to 90 degrees. But I don't know where he has this information from, and perhaps I didn't understand him correctly. But as I said, the one known issue about Oni that was written below the patch notes by Peanits, I believe is referring to Onis flick and that it can turn too good if you bind the left and right action to e and q.
Personally I think he is fine the way he is, but I wouldn't mind if his flick got nerfed. The only two worries I have is that for one, it might lower his skill ceiling a tiny bit, and that it might make his lunge after his dash a bit redundant in most cases. I could also see people be unhappy with this change since his flick is fun to use. But personally I probably wouldn't mind it.
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Just play against him like he's billy, move to the left or right and use corners. Bring unbreakable or that other perk that goes towards your struggle meter when recovering. He's not game breaking, im my opinion he's pretty lacking killer compared to others.
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Why are people acting like it's easy to avoid an m1? Isn't m1ing the thing most killers do to win? Last time I checked killers often win.
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I don't think anyone is saying it's easy to avoid an m1. Of course, when the killer is right behind you, you won't be able to avoid his normal attack.
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I'm just annoyed people say avoiding m1s is counter play. If survivors could avoid m1s all game they would.
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I think Oni is fine as it is... and I speak as a survivor player most of the times.
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"Well I'm not saying that it's totally dependent on certain what if conditions whether you can counterplay Oni or not, but that it affects his counterplay. Maps in general have many loops though, a lot of them close together, so survivors do often have some kind of counterplay. From my experience though, it's just that Oni has counterplay as well, turning some loops into a bit of a mindgame."
You said before that it does depend on the situation.
Most maps that does have loops close together are usually unsafe pallets.
The killer can also mind game as well and has a higher rate of succeeding due to additional movement speed and e.t.c
"Also, to be fair, if you can see a way to how you could have countered Oni in a video, than that shows that he does have counterplay in that situation. I do get that it's impossible for the Dwight to have known to do this, but that's the point. Oni doesn't necessarily have to rely on survivors making mistakes, he has his own counterplay against survivors, while the survivors still also have counterplay against Oni. So it can turn a bit into a mindgame as to how to dodge Oni when he is dashing at you, forcing survivors to try and predict his actions and act accordingly to their predictions. So yeah, I understand that it's hard for survivors in situations like the situation that Dwight was in in the video, but if you can spot counterplay, than that means the survivor did have counterplay in that situation."
There way videos that supposedly said you can counter spirit, but she still got nerf. This is usually because the player using the killer was either bad or just didn't know how to use her.
You can't dodge oni while he is dashing at you, unless you are are at a good spot.
Then couldn't you also say the same thing to the killer about how he could have improve if the dwight down what you say?
"In another video of Scottjund, he did say that the devs wanted to restrict his flick to 90 degrees. But I don't know where he has this information from, and perhaps I didn't understand him correctly. But as I said, the one known issue about Oni that was written below the patch notes by Peanits, I believe is referring to Onis flick and that it can turn too good if you bind the left and right action to e and q."
Not_Queen who is a mod and worker for dbd, discussed about his flick and how players capable of doing more than a 90* degree turn is unacceptable. So now they patch it to make it so it is only a 90° degree.
"Personally I think he is fine the way he is, but I wouldn't mind if his flick got nerfed. The only two worries I have is that for one, it might lower his skill ceiling a tiny bit, and that it might make his lunge after his dash a bit redundant in most cases. I could also see people be unhappy with this change since his flick is fun to use. But personally I probably wouldn't mind it."
I can understand what you are saying and have no problem to your opinion because people are entitled to have one.
Post edited by Zoldyar on0 -
The counterplay to Oni atm is literally a 180. Much wow. Very balance.
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Counterplay depends on the situation you are in against any killer. If you are at a side of a map where no pallets are left, any killer will get you. The difference is that Oni is much more powerful than other killers. Doesn't mean he has no counterplay. That's why stealth also exists, which is a counterplay against any killer.
Also, the only maps I can think of that usually have mindgameable pallets close to each other are the Badham maps and Hawkins. The majority of maps still have many safe pallets relatively close to each other, depending on rng of course. Macmillan or Autoheaven maps have many safe pallet loops that often spawn quite close together. Also, mindgameable loops I believe can be a bit better against Oni, since his lunge, even though it can go farther than a normal lunge, is also slower than a normal lunge, making it harder for him to mindgame at certain mindgameable pallets while his power is active than for killers with a normal lunge. Whether his dash can help at these mindgameable loops, I believe depends on the structure of the loop.
To be fair though, if most maps usually would only have mindgameable pallets close to each other, than that wouldn't change anything though, or? Because having only these pallets at your disposal, doesn't mean a survivor has no counterplay, it only means the killer also has counterplay. Of course disregarding that Oni has a slightly harder time counterplaying mindgameable loops because of his slower normal lunge while his power is active. The devs want to rework maps like this anyways, have maps with more pallets in general, but less of them are safe and more of them are mindgameable. Which honestly, if anything could hurt Oni when his power is active, because pallets would be closer to each other, giving survivors a higher chance to reach a pallet before Oni catches up with his dash, and because of Onis slower lunge.
Regarding the video and the counterplay I explained, the Oni player we see in that video is definitely not bad. If you can tell me some way that Ohtofu could have played that situation to allow for no counterplay, than I would agree. But I don't think there was a way to play Oni in that situation to guarantee that the survivor could not have counterplay there. The part I am talking about is at 26:05 just so you know. I thought you linked me the video showing me that part exactly, but now I feel like that was a mistake, so you probably didn't even know what example I was talking about.
Very importantly to note, of course you can look at the video and try and tell if the killer could also have reacted to the counterplay the survivor could have done. But that just means the killer has actual counterplay, not that the killer is uncounterable.
I'll explain with an example. Let's say the killer is chasing a survivor at a T-L wall. When the survivor gets into the situation where they are about to fast vault one of the windows, there are two options. Either vault the window, or do not vault the window. If you predict that the killer will turn around and go to the other side of the window, you shouldn't vault the window, but if you are predicting that he will not do this, or if you are predicting that he will predict you to not vault the window, than you should vault the window. Now you could say that when the survivor vaults the window, a killer should turn back to the side you are vaulting to, which will allow him to get a hit against you. If you don't vault the window, of course the right thing to do as killer is to just keep going forward and get a hit against a survivor that way.
However, this does not mean the survivor has no counterplay because the killer has ways to get a hit against you in either of these situations, but only that the killer also has counterplay, turning it into a mindgame. In the case of videos, if you can spot how a survivor could have played differently to counterplay the killer, of course that doesn't 100% mean there is counterplay for sure. But, if there is no counterplay, than that would mean that a killer could have played it differently so he could have gotten a hit against a survivor no matter what the survivor did. Something that I don't feel is the case within the example I was talking about. Then again I am now noticing you probably don't know what part in the video I was talking about, which was my mistake.
To be fair, this discussion has become a bit pointless anyways now. The devs have nerfed the lunge a lot, but will be buffing it back a bit in order to attain a fair middle ground, and I think after the next Hotfix Oni will be in a great spot.
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