So, if killers want to be able to win against the perfect 4 swf squad no matter what...
Where's the reward for playing coordinated and well as a team if killer is gonna get 2K at least?
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I have had multiple matches against really good SWF squads and I have to say, its not that hard to bring distrust to the parties.
Because of the fact that if you are in the chase with one guy and his friends are doing gens, you will want to apply pressure 2x as fast, all killers can do this, but each one is harder than the last.
Now the distrust part, provide mis-information to the point where you are completely unpredictable in what you do, then you can make parties pretty much not helpful as the survivor has no idea what is going on and the party doesn't know what to do.
My mains are good at doing this, with it being Demogorgon and GhostFace
GhostFace is the easiest with doing this as shroud provides no information to the survivor if you are still on them or not.
Demogorgon is not as easy but messes up survivors as well, including this weird thing people think is a waste of portals called "Double Portaling" where you place two portals next to each other. Teleport to the portal closest to a hooked survivor and they will be stupendously confused, with the fact survivors usually save right when you leave you can make them save right next to you.
I may have mis-interpreted this post so I will go to the survivor side of it.
How will the game know you are playing coordinated?
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That's exactly what I was discussing with a friend not so long ago.
No matter what, it seems that some killers thinks that when reaching a certain point of the game they will kill everyone, it doesn't work like that. There are good survivors players as there are good killer players.
A match where a killer is capable of killing 2 survivors of a potentially perfect team should be a success on it's part... too bad the game does not agree with this and keeps slapping the "ENTITY DISPLEASED" in your face every time you kill less than 3-4 people.
Getting beaten from time to time is perfectly normal for both sides and shouldn't really be seeing as a punishment.
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Given 4 perfect Survivors playing against a perfect Killer the outcome should be a function of the games RNG, or the outcome should be an endless stalemate with no one getting caught and no gens being completed. Either way works, the former especially since this is not an ESport.
Currently 4 perfect Survivors against a perfect Killer is a guaranteed Survivor win against most (but not all) Killers. Leatherface and Legion for example.
The remaining Killers are fine, but for the Killers where the above statement applies buffs are needed.
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You know, there are not only perfect survivors and killers in the game. Let's say 95% are not "perfect" and they want to have fun too. You can't have perfect balance in any game, and it's especially not possible in an asymmetric game. Given the 70% killrate killers are doing way too well already. What buffs are you talking about? If you lose sometimes to a team who is better than you it's ok. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
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Of course not everyone is perfect, in fact no one is. That is why this game isn't constantly being determined by RNG or stalemates.
The point is that for any given action your opponent can take there is some set of actions you can take in order to either win or at least not lose. Even if you yourself are not capable of executing those actions the fact that the possibility exists ensures that the games outcome is in your hands even if you didn't actually win.
For the record I consider more Killers as viable compared to the majority of the player base. Specifically I consider 8 Killers viable (including Oni), 3 are borderline and the remaining 7 are unviable and are the ones who need the buffs. Which to be fair is far better than the game has ever been in the past in terms of the ratio of Viable to Unviable Killers, but that doesn't mean we can ignore that final category.
For the record the 8 Killers are (in no particular order):
Nurse
Huntress
Spirit
Billy
Hag
Demogorgon
Freddy
Oni
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want to be able
Exactly, a chance you can get with your own skill, rather than a bad 7 minutes match you're gonna lose no matter what you do.
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Perfect team
Killer 2Ks
🤯
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I'll say this as a survivor main at rank 1.
You are the survivors. You are meant to be the weaker role. That's the entire point of an asymmetrical game of any genre. 4 weaker beings vs 1 super powerful being. The killers skill cap should ALWAYS be higher than the survivor. An S-Tier killer being played by a GREAT killer main should always have the odds in their favor, even over great survivors with S-TIER perks.
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The problem with your logic is here:
The point is that for any given action your opponent can take there is some set of actions you can take in order to either win or at least not lose. Even if you yourself are not capable of executing those actions the fact that the possibility exists ensures that the games outcome is in your hands even if you didn't actually win.
There are some math geniuses who can calculate huge numbers in their heads, there are people who can sprint 2 times faster than you. There are people who are showing extreme performance in any aspect of life. By your logic that means you are badly underperforming in everything. You don't deserve your school grades, you don't deserve your level of salary, because the "possibility exists" that it's possible to do much better.
You abstract away many aspects while thinking like that. Just to name ONE example: genetics. Some people can sprint faster, other people have better reaction and do better in games. Some people are better at looping, some are better at hiding and there are objective reasons for that. The limit for everyone is different. That's why this "if someone is capable of X than everyone is capable of it" doesn't work. That's why the only mean we have to judge the performance of the playerbase in DBD are the average stats. And we should balance the game around the average stats, that the only real metric, everything else is just "theory" and has nothing in common with reality.
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I agree with some of the comments. But it really doesnt matter what killer you use. But theres a down fall with swf. When tunnel one. Theres is another one trying to body block or get you to chase them. When that fails for them. All of them will do ne thing in there power to stop ya. When that happens. Boom you got a dinner plate full of survivors. Some time it doesnt work.
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Per usual, a loaded question for killers and makes the wrong assumptions and starts off base. A killer doesn’t want a guaranteed win against optimal survivors. What killer mains want is for the results of matches against the optimal SWF stacks to be based on skill or at worst, a mix of mostly skill and some RNG. That’s not a weird thing to ask for.
But what you have right now for a majority of the killer roster is gameplay balance that basically asks two questions. First, are the survivors committed to gens? Second, are the survivors going to make many mistakes? If the answers are yes and no, then for a vast majority of the killer roster, the game is out of their control. Playing four optimal survivors on comms who are committed to knock out gens and leave is a loss, plain and simple. marth proved this with his experiment. Nothing substantial has changed gameplay wise.
And in reality you don’t even need a four stack. One or two good runners with most killers on most of these maps is enough.
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My logic is exactly how grading works.
You have some hypothetical perfect score called 100%, no matter how smart you are you can't get higher than that simply due to the limitations of the test. And you are graded based on how close you are to that perfect score.
The importance of keeping track of that perfect play is that while no one is quite perfect, they can APPROACH perfection and get increasingly close to it over time.
The problem is that when perfect play on both sides doesn't resolve in a draw of some sort it means you will eventually get Survivors or Killers that are literally unbeatable. So it doesn't matter if your playerbase isn't actually at that point, because the goal isn't like that because you are trying to emulate the average player, but because you can use a base like this to balance the game for ALL skill levels.
Remember, once this portion of the balance is established you can use a good ranking system to handle the rest.
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Yes, the usual dead hard to reach the pallet after the outplay at the jungle gym/at the shack, is something I can stop with my skill.
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You make a good point. If the game is balanced around a perfectly coordinated team still only getting 2 escapes against a killer of any power, what chance do less coordinated teams - let alone solo queue - have of 3 escapes? This is an interesting topic.
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Do you think if a "perfect" SWF group faces a "perfect" killer, the SWF group should win?
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Depends on what you call winning. In that scenario it should be a 2k or 3k. What OP is talking about is that mediocre killers are crying that they can't get a 2k or higher against perfectly coordinated teams. When in reality, there is no reason to cry. I wouldn't cry if I got outskilled by a killer (although I know many who would unfortunately). This is why there is a ranking system (albeit majorly flawed which is where mediocre versus perfect can come in although since I play on console the roles are reversed, too many play killer and it is much easier to rank up as survivor which is honestly pretty smooth matchmaking if not balanced matches)
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Falling for mind games, un-optimized routing, and not hitting Great Skilled Checks.
None of these can be true if the SWF team is perfect. That means the only way a perfect Killer gets one of them is based on map RNG.
Survivor's would be spread out working on their own gens. Gens would fly because a killer can only pressure one survivor at a time without downing one. Even with Ruin thats 80s per gen x3. Then two on one gen for 44s and one on the last for 80s minus if another joins after the fourth pops. About 2.6 minutes of gen time plus travel. 20 seconds to open a gate and out.
Even if it's Nurse, who wins the battle between perfect prediction vs perfect counter prediction? Reality might collapse into itself! 🧐
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No, that's the point. If you think that dh is bad because you only can dodge once and the counter as killer is just waiting, then I'm sorry but you're not a good survivor.
also dh has so many different situations to be used, it's the strongest perk in the game.
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It's so satisfying punishing a killer's DH respect with a DH into pallet stun last second. Call me a madman. Of course nothing can help you in a dead zone (Save 360s).
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You know what SWF gets? Playing as a SWF team.....
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What would be a win, in your opinion? 3 escape? 4 escape?
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Why it's not good?
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I thought we were kindred spirits but you think DH is not good? Betrayal! I'm jk I would rather have Lithe in so many scenarios but DH is more popular for some reason. If I had Lithe I would definitely use it instead.
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"coordinated" = Using a third party program
lul
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Yes please, I want to read the abominations you're gonna write.
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killers won’t stop complaining about survivor perks and mechanics until they get 4ks in under 3 minutes. so the devs won’t listen to them anyways.
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I think it's difficult for most players to come to terms with these two things (which is, actually 'one' thing stated in two different ways):
1. Even the most skilled killer-players (any killer, whether it's the Nurse or the Spirit), when versusing against the most skilled 4-SWF survivor-players, should only get 2 kills on average. If they are getting 3 to 4 kills on average against these 'best' players, then it means that this particular killer is overpowered and needs a nerf of some kind.
2. Even the most skilled group of gen-rushing 4-SWF survivors, when versusing against the most skilled killer players (whether it's the Doctor or the Trapper), should, on average, only have 2 of their "teams" escaping. If the 4-Man "team" has more than 2 Escapes on average, it means that the killer is underpowered and needs to be given a buff of some kind.
I'd also preface this by saying that in my personal definition, "most skilled" doesn't simply mean any Rank 1 players, given how there is a huge discrepancy between the skill level among some Rank 1 survivors. The problem with the current ranking system is that even a casual, average players like me can be in the Survivor's Red Ranks - which should never, ever happen. Both roles (though it seems like 'survivors' have it easier ranking up than the 'killers' in general) should require much more difficult conditions into ranking up (or ranking down.) In addition, understanding what "most skilled" means would require taking data from matches in which killers/survivors are focused on the goal of the game - killing and surviving, and not pipping, "memeing," "just having fun," or some other reasons besides killing/surviving.
Hopefully, no one would be foolish enough to even consider using the "Red Rank" stats that were presented recently to discuss balance, due to the fact that 1. it only considered the killer's Red Rank status, and not the Survivors' ranks and 2. they aren't able to account for the motivations of players, so we don't know whether they were actually trying to kill/survive.
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No U :P
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God, yes!
Although I imagine you're going to say it can be easily baited, completely ignoring its ability to be used for distance/get you to the next pallet/vault so you can restart the loop.
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You are using dead hard wrong and telling others they don't know what they're talking about. Please re-evaluate.
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Your perception of how dead hard is meant to be used is wrong, and you're telling others they don't know what they're talking about. Please re-evaluate.
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I don't know what your point is. You say dead hard only works once against a good killer, but the whole point of dead hard is to make that little bit of extra distance to a window or pallet, not actually bait hits, especially with how dedicated servers are. Cmon bruh.
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Whatever you say lol
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I Guess biased loops god Windows With 0 mindgames gen speed and also punish momentum Strike are all fine aswell
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Yeah they are fine, how else will survivors defend themselves? Also complaining about DS, just don't tunnel bruh!
/s
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Well as SWF was never intentended to be in the game, I really don't think SWF should be getting a reward at all technically.
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Personally I'm of the idea that no matter how good the survivor is, an equally good killer should be able to catch them no matter what. It's not a matter of how, just a matter of when.
A killer should always catch their victim in a chase. The only way to get them off your tail is to outsmart them and escape without alerting them to your location. At least that's what I think this game should be balanced around, and I know that is an unpopular opinion.
However, since that is most likely going to never happen, the best I can ask is that if I lose, it was completely within my control during the game to change the tides to my favour. I should not have to rely on luck during the trials to have a chance at winning.
For example, as a Freddy main, everytime I see someone with Object of Obsession I know it will be a painful game because if I didn't bring a blindness addon and they fell asleep, I will be seen by the survivor no matter how close I am to them. At that point it's not really a game of skill, I just got unlucky and got matched with an OoO group who will use that perk to it's full potential (I'm not saying it's wrong to use something powerful, I'm just saying it shouldn't be very crippling for the other player)
I actually suggested a couple of changes that would still keep OoO strong while being albeit more fairer for the killer as it should stay as a high risk, high reward perk.
I feel like what most killers (including myself) just wants is that we don't feel like we get nothing for trying hard to get a favourable result by the end of the game. I know pips don't matter but hearing the "ENTITY DISPLEASED" sting at the end of a trial really can turn someone's mood sour. It's basically the game telling you that you failed and you suck. Even as a survivor if I hear that I don't feel accomplished at all despite pipping. It's just very discouraging to hear that after working so hard on either side.
There needs to be a better ranking system in my opinion, as the current emblem system forces killers to play dirty and attempt to get a 4k every game in order to "win" (winning from what I can tell is pipping, although that's not my personal definition of winning in this game). If they can still be rewarded even with a 2k, I'm pretty sure people will ask for less buffs and less nerfs in the future as the game slowly closes in on a much more balanced state.
But that's just my opinion on the matter, you have yours.
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we killers don't "want to be able to win afainst the perfect 4 SWF squad no matter what" WE want at least a CHANCE, and not a WINNING THE JACKPOT CHANCE! the I have a chance at winning this game because the balance of the game allows it. no killer likes the game where no matter WHAT they do. they are gonna lose
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remember I said "not a winning the jackpot chance"
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The devs can state whatever they want, they've stated a lot of things and contradicted themselves many times.
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Nope that is not how it actually is, to quote zubat.
4 good survivors will always win vs a good spirit.
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Yep same goes for survivors and how many like you are unable to use dh for example.
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Like what? There is hardly a perk that can compete with dh imo.
I know you think ranks = skill so i gonna head out, also props for not argueing the statement zubat made instead bringing religion into the discussion.
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Again, the "70%" killrate in red ranks is because in order to maintain red ranks you need 3 to 4 kills to win. If you don't 3/4kill more often than you 0/1/2k you will depip out of red ranks - hence, killers have a high kill rate in red ranks.
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