SWF is like a 5th perk.

They stated they want solo players to be equal to swf players first then balance killers.

This is basically because even though swf has no disadvantage and is all advantage even mentioning a compromise to the killer or adjustment to swf literally makes survivors engulf with rage and threaten to quit.

Unranked and ranked matchmaking gets thrown out by survivors cause they get engulfed with rage screaming their queue times will get longer.

Universal voice coms get thrown out by survivors cause again it engulfs them with rage because they dont want to be forced to talk or listen to people.

The only thing to do is give all survivors the ability to see each others auras all the time. Basically a buffed base kit kindred. Its the only way to make solos basically the same as swf. There is literally no other way to match the info given in a swf group to solo players.

Then the next step would be to normalize map size so most killers dont have to walk for 45 seconds across the map. Then you balance killers. Thats the way the devs want to do it and i dont see any other options.

Edit - and yes you can add develop perks for survivors that help solos. But those are just tippy tap bandaid fixes and solos shouldnt be required to take perks just to be on a equal level of swf groups.

Yep. It’s funny to see some people try to argue killer vs 4 solos is balanced. That’s nonsense as it is very clearly advantage killer. If SWF were removed, or turned into ”unranked mode”, killers would completely dominate ranked games. Like it or not, SWF to an extent is required for balance.

I like how killer buffs are last. Gives them room to constantly push them back because there's always time to buff survivors.

Kindred, Empathy, Bond, and way more.

It counters a lot of killer perks as well such as Knockout, NOED, Blood Warden, and way more. SWF shouldn't even be in the game. The devs clearly stated that KYF was planned to be the only friends mode but added SWF do to high demand when they didn't realize why people wanted it.

I am saying they have taken into account the existence of SWF to an extent for balance though. Are you going to tell me killer vs 4 solos is balanced in today’s game? Follow up if you say yes,....what is your idea of balance? Yes, I am talking about kills.

If SWF with 4 people can't bring purple and red items. It's fair for me.

Not to nitpick, but “finish” buffing solos caught my eye. That implies that they’ve started...which they haven’t. Buffing Kindred is nice but doesn’t count, as it requires a perk. If they were to actually try to balance solo to 4 man SWF, and buff killers to that, they can’t require the solo player to have to use perks to do so. That stuff would have to be built in, if you are buffing killers based on all survivors having the info

The whole "band aid fix" thing is such a strawman.

Even if Windows were "perfectly" balanced there would still be bamboozle because it's fun

Even if pallets were "perfectly" balanced there would still be Brutal Strength/Spirit fury because they are fun and change the game up.

Even if gens were longer, ruin & pop would still exist

Perks aren't band aid fixes in the slightest they're supposed to change up game play, and they do, without them everything would be stale af.

The nerf to balanced landing was necessary, not a band aid fix at al.

The way BL was would have made it impossible to make any future fair maps with height, drops and considering there is like 15+ different things BL was way too powerful on suggests the perk was more powerful than it should have been, also the only exhaustion perk with a passive effect, so no, as much as you would like to pretend it was a band aid fix, it was necessary for every future map, and everything that has a drop, i.e - combines on corn maps, the game, every building with a window upstairs.

I don't see how the BL nerf is a bandaid fix.

Any problems it solved were only problems when BL was in play, otherwise a nerf to BL could not possibly have solved it. And a change to the basic mechanics that fixes problematic loops is a valid long term solution, as it reliably makes the issue go away.

Something is only bad map design relative to the mechanics of the game it's a map for. So a map that's badly designed without a stagger, that same map could be a well designed map WITH a stagger. The issue with BL here is that it means all maps would need to be balanced both with and without a stagger, which is both much harder and more limiting. But removing the possibility of that fixes the issue entirely.

The reason we say that something like Bamboozle is a bandaid fix is because it's not something that will exist in ever game, making it a poor solution to the issue even if it is a quick one. However if they had just increased Killer vault speed again then it would NOT be a bandaid solution, since the maps would now be perfectly fine given the new vault speed.

make solo equally or nearly as strong and buff killers.

They already mentioned that they want to do this, but for some reason they got scared and decided against making solo players stronger.

I'm a ps4 player and I've played this game well before SWF was implemented and I've made few observations. First of all when you play this game enough as a killer you start to see the patterns how the game runs quite easily and the patterns have changed. I'd say the swf with comms is an issue that is not just the information they're getting, it's the additional perks you can use without having to use awareness perks.

Normal game pattern goes roughly like this, 2-3 gens are rushed at start while I'm chasing 1 or 2 survivors and while they get hooked usually 2 gens done at that point. Now, the saviours trade the hooks or try to bait me in going stupid unsafe places where normally survivors woudn't go, just to get unhooks and me away from gens and hooks. After all this, usually at this point everyone was hooked once and one gen left at 95%. everyone has ds unbreakable, borrowed + variyng perk, head on etc. so at this point in game, what's the point? add a few flashloghts to this situation.. mori would be the only viable option. If I don't play like douche at the start this is always the outcome. It used to be fun even with the clown at red ranks, I even reached rank one with just clown and the chases were harder then because you couldn't always rely of being rescued. Now it's so different. Even if I knew all the time where every survivor is it wouldn't make a big difference. It's like I'm a magnet killer, pushing survivors away in front and pulling those coming from behind.

This basically never happened before swf. Also, now there can be literally potatoes at chases at rank 2, there used to be a big difference at different ranks. If I play early in the evening the games are better as there are not so many comms players but later in the night this is evident. I can pretty much only play late in the night.

There's not enough time to stop the gens. I wouldn't mind even that much but when you combine immersive playstyle it's just so lame. when 4 gens are done and last nearly finished everybody is just farming bp from chases at that point every immersive player just running around, it's just so stupid. I've would like to play with red rank survs but if I basically play like I enjoy playing a killer I would depip almost everytime even if I get 2-3 kills and even that would not happen very often. I also would like playing some killers that are not so viable against coordinated survivors like huntress, doctor, clown, trapper. There are so few killers left in the game that if I depip to rank 8 for example I still just face red ranks.

I'm basically in a spot here where I have to use killers I don't enjoy or do a playstyle I don't enjoy to play with people who have the same skill level like me. I'm not the best of the best but quite good as a killer. I think we are running out of killers very soon. Seriously if I just concentrate on chases and end those very fast and let people unhook survs, I depip to a point when I'm with potatoes 😂 It just feels like it's been forever when I've had even match between survivors. If everthing goes well for me even in this scenario someone dc's and that's a depip for a killer easily. Destroy or get destroyed. I seriously don't think this is very fun for either side.

I used to love when I faced a good survivor who outplayed me because he had a good understanding of the game, it literally made me laugh sometimes. you really felt the difference between survivor skill. Now when something similar happens I just know he usually has the extra info and backup with no risk really.

When playing as a survivor l have to wait at least 15min for a match and that's too much. Killers I face just slug, mori or tunnel and I understand why. I really really like this game but when the games are going like this I'm just starting to give up.

I think we would need some kind of perk limit added like only allowing ds or unbreakable but not both at the same build. or some categorization for perks and only one allowed from each category. I really think we could to this because I don't think this game really draws new players anymore.

Seriously people, if there's no killers there's nothing to survive anymore. Survivor game without a killer, imagine that. I really really suggest all you survivor mains to play killer for a while it would make you understand the whole situation a bit better. I play both and I don't think there not enough of us.

Yeah, not all swf. but in higher ranks this is normal. I propably would not enjoy facing your group either because I'd like to play more seriously and I don't like easy wins.

I think it's great when I hear some SWF just play around and have fun with it, but that absolutely does not speak for the majority of SWF groups. Even those who claim they aren't tryhards are calling out who the killer is, where they're being chased/if they're being chased, totem spawns, etc. Simply watch a survivor main streamer and see how even in their most casual matches in SWF they are CONSTANTLY communicating. Since a lot of SWF groups are heavily into survivor streamers, it's easy to assume they're at least on that same level of communication most of the time. No one wants to admit the HUGE advantage SWF with comms gives you in this game, but it is, in fact, an advantage whether you're utilizing it to its fullest potential or not.

That's Sandbag With Friends

Gotcha. My theory as well is that they will “bring up solo to SWF” via buffing perks that SWF are unlikely to run. They would need to make things baseline.I’m 1000000000% against voice chat being added though, not that you said it I’m just venting, I’d quit the game (even with a mute option as killers would be balanced on me HAVING voice chat lol). People always have that idea and say just mute it...ummm no, not that simple if you are balancing to voice chat! Just make certain perks base, like the new Kindred, then add to the survivor objective...while also putting in measures to completely stop camping and tunneling. Everyone now loves the game.Piece of cake, devs....get on this! 😉

So you think killer vs 4 solos is balanced?! Come on now. I’ll ask you what I asked other guy...what is your idea of balance? I am speaking directly about kills, not any issues with the pip system. They have shifted balance over time to where a solo lobby is now weak vs killer, that’s what I mean when I say they’ve taken SWF into account. They absolutely have. If SWF was non existent, kill rates would be damn near 90% I bet. But yes, continue on with your hell to the nah nah on how an all solo lobby is perfectly balanced lol.

See, you are trying to make an unbalanced point. I am not arguing that Solo's should be the standard. I am arguing that SWF is too strong.

I will answer your question though.

My idea of balance is the definition of balance. Both sides of the coin should have equal chance to win on an every trial basis. Obviously the recipe to this hasn't been established but If we are honest, since SWF has been established in this game, there hasn't been much to alter SWF play in this regard. There hasn't been any tweaking on that side of the fence, only nerfs/buffs along the way to perks and killers. That's it. Instead of actually putting in an effort of some capacity to rectify the problem. Instead it's a constant grind of nothingness.

The definition of insanity is.. Repeating the same pattern over and over, and expecting a different result. Sure they have tweaked things along the way, so It's not complete insanity, but the true problems of this game remain. So, instead of putting a band aide on everything along the way, maybe, IDK, try fixing the true problems of the game? Do something at least. If It doesn't work, okay, move on to the next thing to you find the solution.

The rest is perspective.

I almost exclusive play solo survivor. I play both sides. Survivor and Killer. I've got rank 1 on both sides many times over. In comparison though.. I would rather play SOLO survivor for fun ALL DAY long than Killer. I can't play killer as long because It's way more stressful and annoying. I don't like to play dirty, I like to play nice, but when you play nice, you get nothing but toxicity on a consistent basis. It gets real old, real fast.

So, yeah, solo survivor doesn't bother me at all. Especially in comparison to playing Killer and the level of annoying that comes with it.

75% killer win rate. even considering swf, even high without.

you want what, 80% killer win rate? 95% killer win rate?

quit crying that 1 of 4 survivors make it out alive. if you cant do at least that you are well below average. get better.