Killer players complaining about gen rush.

gens are the primary goal for survivors gen rushing is just something killers say to make them feel better about doing poorly.

I'll fight about it but not argue online.

@Karl_Childers

I agree. I think gen speeds are fine as they are tbh.

I think the one thing I will say that I personally think some killers should get is a buff to their own ability. Specifically the ones without mobility. That way it is a direct buff to them and not overcompensating other killers who are already strong. Like The Hillbilly or Spirit.

If you target gens alone and basically decrease the baseline speed and/or add a secondary objective, those killers who more or less rely on camping methods would have a field day.

This entire thread hurts my head.

You have ONE example and try to mold it into the standard. Sigh.

This doesn't happen often in higher ranks, camping is not a good tactic at all as Killer. This literally isn't what most Killers are complaining about or doing.

First of all, It ONLY works if the survivors are brain dead. It's easy to counter, you just do gens, yeah, It sucks for the guy on hook, but some games be that way. This really isn't an issue at all. It only hurts the Killer, unless survivors make the mistake of hovering around the face camp and allowing the Killer to punish them for it.

I'm also in red ranks, both sides, I don't see face camping hardly at all. The only time I do is usually when someone is being toxic and probably deserved it at that point. It is very rare to see a killer that knows what they are doing allow themselves to be tilted by someone because they will abandon chase when they know It isn't to their advantage.

Face camping is very common in lower ranks, that's just a lack of experience though.

Proxy Camping is far more common, I agree. However, this isn't a great strategy either because It's just the lazy way of applying map pressure which is also countered by anyone that has enough experience as survivor to realize the situation. You do see this more, but, It's certainly not a very consistent way to play at higher ranks either from my experience. Also, for me, It's hella boring.

There is certainly situations where It is the smart play for the Killer to Proxy, this, Is very situational though.

So, now that we've come back full circle..

It stands to reason, If gen rushing wasn't so powerful, people wouldn't feel so obligated to face camp.

I mean, have you asked yourself WHY people do face camp, especially at lower ranks? It's because of how fast gen's get done. They feel they don't have a chance because of how fast things are getting done, so they at least one to kill ONE survivor for their troubles.

This is a problem. Now, for Killers that have experience, there are plenty of games that I have played, where I did everything I could, I had good map pressure, I was downing people consistently, hooking people consistently (not slugging or camping) and still lost in 5-8 minutes because of how fast gens got done. Games where there was literally nothing I could do about it, didn't stand a chance.

That is a HUGE problem. Face Camping, survivors have an even greater chance of winning because they can punish the Killer that much easier because of It.

Killer.. yeah, good luck.

So.. It's not even comparable or an issue to me. Gen Speeds are flawed, I don't know the solution but It's a joke at times. Face Camping is just silly, ineffective, and not worth the time for me.

@DeanIcity

So the only thing I gathered from everything you just said is: Killers facecamp because they have an obligated duty to do so once gens start popping. I mean.. what?

Did you ever ask yourself why gens start getting completed? MANY killers don't even bother to kick a gen when they come into contact with it... let alone check them.

You really think someone who has to feel the need to facecamp because their hooks are getting saboed really has any desire to win the match? No. They just want to "punish" that survivor for messing with their hooks. Same with the people who can't catch other survivors because they keep swinging and missing, or their bloodlust gameplay isn't working for them, so they FINALLY break the pallet Etc. Etc. and survivors should be punished for the killer's inability to perform? Nah fam.

This isn't a full circle we've come to. It isn't even half a circle.

Clearly not every situation is the same, but to flat out say that killers get a free pass on camping simply because they got outperformed, doesn't give anyone license to complain about getting "gen rushed". That's like saying survivors should automatically by default unbreakable even without a perk because you literally cannot do anything when you're on the ground, unless you have a perk or someone who can heal you.

Genrush was and has been a thing since the start of the game, the difference being survivors were new, and bad, infinites existed meaning they could "play" with the killer easier so why rush gens?

a secondary objective should be detrimental to survivors, old sabo was heavily detrimental to the killer to the point where they literally could not win.

Gen rush was not a thing because survivors were stronger and didn't feel the need to escape asap. Saying they were new and bad doesn't make sense unless you refer to the first few months of the game.

And btw old sabo was detrimental for survivors too, since then killers adapted with basement build and a lot of 4k were due to that. My point is that old sabo was good as a secondary objective (meaning it gave a reason to survivors to not repair gens), not that it was good per se.

It would be alright actually, assuming there would be a similar difference in sabo/desabo times as is with my proposed concept. If killer wastes 12 seconds to compromise a pallet and only 1-2 to check and fix it for me - I'd take that trade. It would be not much of a waste of time to just check any pallets I come upon by as I transition to another gen or maneuver around the map, and if he just has to go around and touch every pallet it's more time survs can safely put into gens.

Of course there are already killers that can do that kind of prepwork. Trapper can fairly quickly disable major pallet loops, and of course there is Freddy. Yes, this isn't base kit for every killer, but neither is meanungful sabo - you need either a toolbox (which are a limited, expiring resource) or a perk, and with the perk sabo times are fairly long. Even with alex's toolbox it takes 10-12 seconds to bonk a hook, as opposed to proposed 4 second check time. And if you see a flock of jakes hugging toolboxes in a lobby you could prepare with reworkes perks that specifically counter that, like aforementioned Hangsman's Trick, or Monstrous Shrine injuring any survivor that compromises non-basement hook.

Furthermore, consider possible in-game situations. As a Killer, once you win a chase and down a surv you can either pick him up right there and proceed to a hook if you feel confident, but you will be punished if you read survivor actions wrong and fail to consider that there might be compromised hooks nearby. Or you could slug him for the time being if there is a hook in reasonable proximity and go check it out, but you waste time and risk him getting picked up or crawling too far.

As a survivor you waste time not doing gens for a very uncertain benefit - killer could just undo all your work in seconds if he's cautious or vigilant. Or he could fake going to check on a hook only to doubleback and smack you for an attempted pickup.

I am sorry, but I don't see where you're getting 30-40 seconds per hook. If you mean that constantly checking every single hook you come upon would add up, then yes it would and also you would be playing inefficiently. There is only reason to check hooks when you need to use one - and then it's at most 10-12 seconds, counting time to walk from slugged surv to a hook and back.

Checking every single hook becomes reasonable and actually time-efficient if you know for a fact that they are saboing - it's 4 seconds of your time for about 20 seconds of surv-time not spent on gens. And if you are observant there would be a lot of signs to give you a hint that exactly that is happening, like no gens being done, survs in weird spots, etc.

Now, what you described could be a good surv-tactic - instilling paranoia through precedent and forcing you to waste time and risk pickups. But that is another aspect of mindgames and whether you can call their bluff and distinguish a single saboed hook you come upon from a systematic effort. And that is ok, we need more diversity in approaches, both for survivors and for killers. And whether gen-times should be lengthened is another topic whatsoever. I consider that they do but in a subtler way than just slapping extra 60 seconds on a gen basetime or something.

well, firstly I'm pretty even on my Killer/Survivor time, thanks for asking.

Secondly, what you described is quite suboptimal way to go about that kind of situation. Should you suspect that there are janky hooks abound you would not pick up surv until you know exactly which hook you are taking him to. And yes, he'll probably crawl away, but he cannot get far anyway and you shouldn't have problems finding him at that length of time. Even if you do, well that would make deerstalker useful for once. Consider also that he does not recover when crawling (unless he has one very specific and not very popular perk). Also, survivor properly orienting himself in a chase he cannot win and running you to a place where there are no hooks in proximity or where there are hooks that he knows are compromised should be rewarded for it - as too should be the killer who manages to chase a surv towards a hook and down him right under it.

In any case with good judgement that is still a net positive on gametime in favour of killer. Good judgement here implies making correct decisions about when to go for confident hooking, when to slug for a brief time and when to flush out survs hiding in bushes and preparing to go for pickup. This also applies to other examples you provided - while flashlight saves are certainly infuriating, they are still a punishment for your own overconfidence or failure to read a situation. Situations when you absolutely cannot know that there are survs with flashlights nearby are thankfully pretty rare, and even then you can always be cautious and pick surv up facing an obstacle, making a flashlight save harder, if not impossible outright. As for the pallet stun saves the solution is even more trivial - they are in all cases without exception a punishment for killer's carelessness. Head-on is so situational it's use is anecdotal.

>Imagine a 4 man SWF, all saboing every hook to start with and running petrified oak.

Well, good. They just wasted a whole lot of time and toolboxes - or even more time if they run a perk - and it's pretty easy for me to catch on what is going on and erase their hard work in seconds, and I'll probably get a couple of smacks in and an occasional down while doing so. I'd gladly take this against three gens popping 90 seconds in. You should know that defending a 3gen with everyone alive and standing is a herculean task, often ending in 0k. Denying them gentime in exchange for having to hump a hook now and then works for me and should help me start the usual botched-save-cascade going. That is if they make mistakes of course.

And yes, I will concede that properly coordinated well-synergized swf group on comms can wipe the floor with killer that makes mistakes, but than again they can do so now without sabo. Being coordinated and synergized is definition of perfect play for survs and should be beaten only by a perfect play on killers side.

>Why does the killer have to play perfectly without making mistakes, but survivors are allowed to screw up constantly and still win?

As for this, well mostly because mistakes cost killer and survs differently. Remeber, when playing surv every hook can be your last, that's why there are second chance perks for survivors but no way for a killer to easily deny decisive. And no, killer doesn't have to play perfectly; no-one plays perfectly (except for maybe otz) and those times when you got 4k were not because you didn't make a single mistake but because you made less of them then survs, i.e. you were better, Killer play should not be free of risk/reward decisions.

Swf groups are an evil on its own, stemming from the fact that game's core was not designed with them in mind; but dealing with this problem is different topic entirely and still absolute majority of all players are solos. Survivors shouldn't be denied multiple alternative ways to fight back, variety will itself enrich killer's experience forcing him out of stale molds and into new avenues of struggle. As it exists now sabotage is practically dead and that's a systemic shame because it robs the game of aforementioned variety. Exact parameters, times and rules could be reworked to balance out the killer/surv dynamic, but surely the rework is overdue.

killers complaining about gen rush is the equivalent of survivors complaining about camping. so you can’t be against one and for the other.

respect and fairness in this game is a two way street.