ScottJund, Do you remember your first game in the swamp of the stream against some good players?
I've seen your stream, you didn't play badly, nea was a great player and if she know the map it can give to them enough time and the others repaired you 3 gens in a chase.
You made some mental games to hide the light, but some of them didn't work. It is the difference of a player who knows how to play dead by daylight to one who ... goes straight throwing pallets and that ... doesn't last almost 30 seconds of chase.
I hate the following phrase from the devs: "If you make mistakes, you lose the game" or "don't put pressure on the game."
In that game, you did a chase against NEA, and had great difficulty catching her.
What I mean, that there is a big problem in the game and that developers should know. THE MAPS A good player can entertain you a lot of time while others repair. This is not fun but fun for the survivor
I DON'T know if you agree with me @ScottJund
I would like your opinion about it, thanks!
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Sadly Scott makes EU non-friendly streams ;(, but from what I understood, the real problem with the game it’s not map knowledge, rather than setups, hence rng.
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The difference in this game is the players who know how to run from the killer and those who don't know. And ... the maps ... but you modify the maps, the generators are repaired super fast, while as a murderer I waste time chasing a great player, it makes no sense. THAT is not fun. Scott played well ... but if that NEA played with the structures and the map and could not catch it so fast there is a real problem in the game that the devs do not realize. Too much advantage for good players, at the end of the game he could go back ... but the game was not fun for the killer.
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Scott got no clue about balance. Sometimes he got good ideas, but for the most part he's just crying for killer nerfs for some reason.
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100% when oni came out he cried that he had no counterplay now hes crying that they nerfed him to the ground I dont get this person
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Maybe why he usually faces bad players and can't have clear ideas? Because in the swamp game against NEA he suffered too much.
Nor is the idea of nerf so hardcore a killer, because I really saw ONI quite a counterplay, it is not the same to face a player who goes in a straight line than one who knows what he does.
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any killer can destroy bad survivors real strength comes into play when u face a good looper
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He said the ptb version was broken because of the 180 degree flick and he was fine with the release version.
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Can you link the actual footage, for a little bit of context?
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...I don't think I've ever seen him ask for anything other than Nurse and PTB Oni nerfs, and they were both actually bonkers?
He was actually fine with release Oni.
Just because someone doesn't get on the echo chamber of "Survivors OP, killers bad, buff pls :/" it doesn't mean the person is anti-killer you know.
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Because a lot of other popular streamers are saying Oni is too weak, Puppers even asked “why did they nerf him?” So Scott doesn’t wanna look like a reason for nerfing he wants to seem like he agrees with everyone else
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I haven't heard any crying, just him stating his opinion.
It is possible for one person to both think that a killer has little to no counterplay and also believe that steps taken by the devs to address that issue went a bit too far.
Just stating that he's not a fan of something and explaining why doesn't equate to "crying". Even when he was lamenting the Oni nerfs, he said at the end something to the effect of "they said they were going to make changes so we'll see what happens", which to me would suggest that he's not mindlessly whining but trying to remain reasonable and approach the topic from a rational standpoint.
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He said the nurse base nerf were fine. He also said the spirit nerf was not enough. And he clearly stated, that oni is op.
He got no facts, that prove his argumentation, that's why i think he got no clue.
If he would just say his opinion and base it on facts or observations there would be no problem.
He lost me completely while he ranted about spirit and told people over and over again how op she is, oh sorry, how little counterplay she got, completely ignoring the 1v4 aspect. He ignored facts and basic maths at this point only to spread his obviously really biased opinion. Not very cool imo.
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Unfortunately people don't seem to get the difference between crying and stating an opinion. I 100% agreed with him there wasn't much counter play to oni and that was mainly due to how big the flick was with his power. After the first fix on it, he felt it was fine. But then they did an even bigger nerf on it which was where he said that oni was basically nerfed to the ground. As for spirit, I honestly cannot see much difference while playing her now. Sure I don't have collision but it's still easy to find survivor's based off of scratch marks and hearing the constant moaning of pain.
But this is all coming from someone who generally mains Plague, Freddy and a bit of doctor/spirit.
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He said MULTIPLE, and I mean multiple times that he didn't think Spirit was OP at all and asked for adjustments, not nerfs. He (rightly) said that the nerfs don't adress the actual problems with the killer, and iirc he was even fine with adding some power elsewhere if those problems were adressed.
Nurse base kit was too strong in the eyes of many people, including mine, and a good Nurse can still perform well with her, so it's hardly a controversial opinion and I don't know what your point is on mentioning it.
Not everything in this game is as black and white as "killers weak, survivors strong".
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Yes, the game is a 1v4. But if you want to make an argument that spirit had no counter play due to that 1v4 mentality, then you don't have much of a grasp on balance. People can generally get consistent 3-4ks with weaker killers once they know how they work, looping and when to break chase. Spirit on the other hand could consistently get a 4k even if you don't know how to play her to the full potential. THAT was the problem with spirit. It was high reward for little skill. At least now she takes a bit more skill. If anything, spirit just needs a rework. It doesn't matter how much they nerf here, it'll either be to the ground or not enough.
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Map design has been the biggest problem in DBD pretty much since it came out. Basically every single issue with balance can be boiled down to bad map design. Certain maps like Ormund, Haddonfield, Fractured Cowshed, Thompson House, etc. are so absurdly survivor sided that any competent survivor team can easily beat anything but the top tier killers. I've always said map design was the biggest issue and it probably will be.
Also I think you're referring to me playing nerfed Oni on Pale Rose? Its one of the only games I lost with Oni so that one stuck out. She got a really disgusting pier window setup. RNG really dictates the game. I got an Azarovs after that that literally had like 5 pallets in the entire map. It should never be that extreme either side.
Either way, short of repeatedly suggesting a lot of fixing a lot of maps, I still dont think the overall game is badly balanced. I literally won 86 Oni games in a row before that. How fair do you think it felt for all of them?
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Look FriendlyGuy I get that you dislike me because I attack tru3s opinions a lot, but literally the only nerfs I have ever asked for on the killer side were for Nurse (which nearly everyone agreed needed a nerf), and PTB Oni (which again was bustedly strong). I said Spirit needed a change to introduce some counterplay and then should be buffed accordingly, not a net nerf. (Except for Prayer Beads which was b.s and you know it)
That's literally it. I ######### about the map design and bugs WAY WAY more and im not sure why you ignore all of that and focus on the three things in the history of DBD I wanted nerfed on the killer side.
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I'm not sure what is confusing about Oni being broken on the PTB and the fixed on the Live servers where he was fine. Its really simple dude. He was broken, they fixed him, then when they nerfed him again I upset with the nerf. Whats to not understand?
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I doubt I play 86 games in a couple months lol. I have maybe 100 hours in the game, and I go against the same rank survivors you do and lose like alllll the matches. Why does matchmaker have to do this =(
I agree with those thoughts too, though I think there is some discussion to be had on Oni.
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They didn't nerf him is what devs say
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He played 8 hours of spirit only and 50 4ks in a row as Oni, what do you mean no facts?
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Scott never said remove the flick past 90 with any further change... the devs did further changes... so that’s why he has a problem now.
Hopefully whatever the devs are further doing fixes everything.
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100% agree that maps are essentially the balance problem. If you make most tiles completely safe when a survivor runs them correctly, it's a real problem when 4 survivors run all of them correctly in a trial. And I'm not really encouraged by the Badham rework because they didn't really fix anything that was actually wrong with it in my opinion. You still usually get 5 pallets on that map that have zero counterplay potential plus a ridiculous window setup in the house with the gen in the basement.
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Everyone knows the map design is terrible. But the devs are taking their sweet time fixing it.
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Lol okay buddy
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Yes he wanted an "adjustment", that shows people when she's going in her power. I'm not an idiot. That's a nerf.
Play nurde on r1 against a sweaty swf, win, and tell me it feels like a win. Then we can talk further.
A good way to adjust spirit would be making her harder to play. But instead of doing that they made the counterplay easier. And that's not good. I can crush solos with any killer too btw.
Solos<Killers<SWF=Nurse
The true underlying problem behind everything balance related is people ignoring the power of coms and building their opinion on matches against solos.
I agree on the map design problem. But 86 oni wins against solos tell you nothing. 86 oni wins against swf are interesting.
I got my own opinion, just to be clear. Every empirical killer facts people claim to got in this game are worthless, if they are not achieved against swf. That includes Day of the Wraith, otzdarvas trapper challenge, 50 oni 4ks in a row and so on.
Look what happened to oni. I also stated, that the BUG should be fixed, that let him flick 180°. The difference between the two of us is, that you stated he's op and not clearly explained, that he's op due to a bug.
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Yes at red ranks you can play 86 matches without facing a swf. Good logic
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I apologize but you appear to not be a native English speaker and I'm having trouble understanding your last paragraph. Are you saying I wasn't aware the flick was a bug? Because it wasnt for me. I never combined keyboard and mouse movements to have a bigger flick. Also I never said he was OP, just that his PTB version was uncounterable in a chase.
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If I play Nurse against a swf and win what's that gonna feel like?
I'm sorry but I fail to see the purpose on what you've just said.
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86 matches only against swf? I doubt.
Everything over 90° wasn't intended and everything above ~140° was the double flick. So yes the flick was basically a bug. About the uncounterable thing, i just play safe as survivor. I'm not greedy at pallets. That's a counter or am i wrong?
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@ScottJund totally agree but ... I'm not going to discuss one thing, those 86 games were good people? Actually most killers can win very bad survivors who really are very bad loopers. I tell you that of those 86 games, if there were competent people it would not have been all 4k, I don't remember the games right now, but to what I mean, we never compare people who know how to loop through the map design (bad design) and This makes the killer "lose the game" to people who literally do not last anything in chases, they are 2 different things.
Regarding the balancing of the game, there is a lot of work ahead, one of the things is the maps. And how easy it is to combine structures with others and waste the killer so much time that the game is very disgusting sometimes. However, I play killer and survivor ... I am main killer, but ... do you know what I feel when I play survivor? I feel sorry for the killer, when there are games almost 50-75% of the games, I do great chases and the killer finally ... make 1-2 hooks while my teammates have repaired 3-5 generators (i play SOLO). The game fails. Bad design. That's it.
Sorry Scott, I'm not native! Thanks for bothering to answer.
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There are 100% maps that heavily favor one role. But, is seems that everybody that makes a complaint about this either trivializes the action of 'balancing maps', or just severely underestimates how complex and difficult it is to actually do. It's also just extremely subjective.
A lot of people agree that a specific map should be rebalanced, but I bet everybody has a different idea of what that would entail. Like, what do you do to balance Haddonfield? Remove a pallet or 2? Get rid of one of the houses? Less gens on 2nd floors of houses? Remove some fences? Add more fences? Add some logic to prevent 2 specific tiles from ever spawning next to eachother? And there's no way to know if changing that would actually do anything. Is a slight change to a map structure going to inadvertently a make a certain perk or killer OP on that map?
I feel like the only reasonable things that devs can change on a map are number & location of pallets, number of total open windows, and having tile spawning logic restrictions changed. And in the end, how do you determine if the map is 'balanced' or not? If it averages 2 kills for killers across all ranks? If the 'safe' tile to map size ratio is at a certain point?
I just wanted to point out how subjective the entire thing is, and how little certainty you would actually have on how impactful the changes made would actually be. I find it odd that so many people have the mentality of "Just make the maps better 4head".
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She's unfun. Incredibly unfun. That's my point.
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People agreed on an add-on nerf for Nurse, not for a basekit nerf. Additional blinks, and range add-ons were the only problematic thing about old Nurse. Devs overdid it, just like they did with Legion, old Freddy, Oni, etc.
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I mean that's what I agreed with too so I'm not sure how that fuels his argument. I don't necessarily have a problem with her base changes, but I definitely didn't ask for them.
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Your life in the forums seems sad man, you work hard to build valid arguments and people distort them
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"A good way to adjust spirit would be making her harder to play. But instead of doing that they made the counterplay easier. And that's not good. I can crush solos with any killer too btw.
Solos<Killers<SWF=Nurse
The true underlying problem behind everything balance related is people ignoring the power of coms and building their opinion on matches against solos."
I agree with you on that 100%. She was listed as "hard" but she's really not that difficult to play. If you can master a killer that's labeled as hard, you should get rewarded for it. I feel like the thing they should do to change spirit is to change how her power works. Like, what if you could see survivor's in increments, the survivor's can also see you. Maybe even remove her ability to hear the grunts if they're injured? I don't know, I see them possibly really nerfing her to the ground eventually and it makes me sad.
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I miss his 90 degree flick. I mean, yes he can still get some decent flicks but you have to hope the map is in your favor for it. Hopefully they'll bring Oni back to where he once was on the 90 degree
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@FriendlyGuy Making Spirit harder to play? That would be fine if she wasn’t already tripled nerfed.
- Her add-ons were nerfed. Collision was removed and she got a vault animation.
- She is broken because she gets zero lunge out of her power.
- Sounds are bugged which is a BIG kick in the gut to Spirit since she heavily relies on sound. I run Stridor and one minute I’ll hear them loud and clear then all of a sudden I hear zero sound and no footsteps. Basically everyone has free Iron Will. Slugs also make no sound. I was BHVR’ed countless times yesterday because I couldn’t hear a thing when I should’ve been able to hear their injured moans and footsteps.
I’m not saying Spirit still isn’t a good killer, she’s just not as viable as she should he due to her power being bugged and sounds being bugged as well. She’s already harder to play due to all the bugs. If the game was in a good place I’d be more for making her have a larger skill cap but it’s just not worth it at this point in the game.
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Who mentioned Tru3? I don't think anyone said anything about him in this thread just curious why streamers always feel the need to put others on blast.
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Oh I have personal history with the poster and he dislikes me because I disagree with tru3 often.
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Ahhh good ol' team tyranny at it again.
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The first thing they need to do is removing the vaulting animation and bring collision back. And fix the lunge bug of course. The addon nerfs were okay and needed imo. After that her phase should get reworked, so it's way harder to control. Maybe something with bumping off on objects. Boom! She keeps her skillcap and gets a way higher skillfloor.
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I dislike your opinions because of your 1v1 mentality. You made a very good video about it yourself, explaining the difference between those mentalities.
Btw you're the one mentioning tru3 for some reason. I think you're smart enough to know, that not everyone is a fan. There are also people just disagreeing with you.
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What are eu non friendly streams??
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You dislike the mentality that 1v1 and 1v4 are equally important? Are you like..admitting you want the game imbalanced for a certain side?
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I'm guessing they mean he streams at times that are inconvenient for EU viewers, like in the evenings for him which would be the middle of the night for Europeans.
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Yes and no. I'm aware of the fact, that the survivor side needs to be fun and chases are the most fun aspect of the game for most survivors, myself included. The problem is, that good survivors can longer a chase for several gens against certain killers, no matter how good the killer player is. A good balance decision would be a longer chase time with more pallet spawns and more objectives to longer the match time. More fun for everyone.
Most likely that's too much for BHVR. Even if that's the case they need to keep their balancing direction somehow. You can't nerf a killer because he's op at r1 and keep survive with friends like it is, because it's only op at r1. That are double standards. That's why the spirit nerf aimed for the wrong attributes of her, excluding the addon changes.
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Most of the times when he streams for me it’s like 4 am, while I think for him it’s 7 pm or smth like that.
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Oh that's what you mean by that. Yeah I understand now, I have the same issue with Marth. I can't catch his stream live very often since he is a non eu streamer aswell
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