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Stop giving ideas to slow down gens without addressing tunneling/camping also
This gets a little annoying...everyone has these ideas like collecting gas or parts but hardly anyone addresses the “kill rush” side of the equation at the same time. These things are 100% linked. Don’t offer up an idea for one without anything for the other to balance it. Kill rate is in line, or even exceeding really, the rate of the current gen speed. Note- do not counter with a pip argument, as that has to do with the emblem system, not balance of kill/escape rate that many players view as a win or loss. Sorry, but survivors don’t want to play a game where killer is averaging 3-4K, which clearly slowing down ONLY survivors would lead to. So you have to tackle both sides. Anything that slows the survivor objective must be done with the thought process of benefitting only killers who play “fairly”, and not only does nothing to benefit the many who don’t, but puts them in a much worse spot than currently. Please tell me how this is wrong. That’s how you improve the game.Why would we slow survivors down, and allow tunnelers/campers to become stronger? How does that improve game health? Oh, let me guess...the reply will be “use DS or BT”. Ok, use the plethora of gen defense perks then, the ones you complain you shouldn’t have to use. Leave everything as is then if that’s the attitude!
edit - Also yes, before anyone says it I’m aware survivors complain about tunneling and camping without giving ideas to help the killers who don’t, but the reverse is far more popular. I just think something needs to be done to both sides...that’s my point.
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Kill rush? It's one vs four. The four shouldn't be way faster on top of a numbers advantage. Holy
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The problem with your logic is that the counter to camping is to gen rush. If the survivors are optimally completing gens as the killer is chasing someone, camping does not stop them completing gens, it enables it further.
A true inverse would be if the gens got blocked (a la Thrilling Tremors) whenever there was a survivor on the hook. Then we’d have a system where the counter to gen rush would be camping, but then there would be no counter to camping.
So, I disagree with the foundation of your post. A camping killer gets punished by gen rushing. A team of coordinated survivors rushing gens is not punished collectively by a camping killer - one dies, three escape - a loss for the killer by any metric.
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Ah see, you know the truth of the matter. 4v1 and the 4 want all the advantages.
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There are many perks and game mechanics to address tunneling and camping.
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So just to be clear, since that was a lot to digest - is the point you're trying to make that the game is more or less balanced as is, in terms of kill rate versus escape rate, and therefore making it more difficult for survivors to achieve their objective without similarly rebalancing the killer objective would throw things off-balance and increase kill rates disproportionately?
Just wanting to make sure I've understood you correctly.
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What you're saying is that people shouldn't present their ideas for a significant change to the game, unless they also have an idea for another part of the game.
How about no? It's always good for people to put their ideas out there, it leads to discussion and other suggestions, and in some cases it will even help the devs think of something in the future. It in no way means that they categorically don't agree with a different aspect of the game being an issue, and they shouldn't not post just because you have a very specific idea about how they should.
It's like the time I posted a key rework idea and got told I was biased because moris exist when I agree moris should be nerfed, just because I didn't put in an idea for that in the same post.
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KIllers tunnel and camp cuz gens are done to fast and what u are going to say on that ? Killers feel like there is no reason to stop ur other teammates thats why they tunnel and camp. Adress that.
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I played as rank 8 Wraith on Ormond. Didn't tunnel or camp at all, had everyone on death hook, got one kill, 23Kbps, entity displeased. Next two games, I was pissed off, so I tunneled. Both 4K games, ruthless and merciless. Played another match as plague, gens done in under 5 minutes and I tunneled just to get a single kill.
On the flip side, I played survivor at rank 9. Did one gen on my own, did one totem, got one unhook, half of a heal, three short chases and I died. 10KBPS, Black pip.
How is that remotely fair? I work my butt off as killer, play "fair", and get punished for it. Barely do anything as survivor and it's still a draw. Killers tunnel because they feel they have to, because of the gen speeds and the emblem system. Fix that and the majority of camping/tunneling will go away.
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In b4 a "trusted" or dev post saying "it's not about the pip, having "FUN" is how you win"
It can't be kills for killer because that would be unbalanced if they got more than 2 right?
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I think the point is that gen rush is the only thing keeping tunneling/camping in check. If repairing gens was a slower process, those tactics would be stronger.
For example facecamping since the beginning generally allows you to secure one kill, and most likely get another in the endgame, but if given more time it could probably secure 2 kills plus one in the endgame.
To be honest I agree with this reasoning, and it might also be the reson the devs haven't done anything in this regard aside giving more perk choices.
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I agree, genrush is what makes camping a valid strategy currently. Seriously overhauling gens would lead to camping being incredibly effective making it so the easiest way for a killer to win is to just camp. So I agree camping does need to be addressed if gen speeds were adjusted.
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It's almost like fixing gen speeds would remove a lot of pressure on the killer, removing the amount of time management required, and thus would remove camping/tunneling as the killer does not feel like they have to do so due to the length and speed that games go. There is already BS second chance perks that punish good killers for not playing like scumbags, like DS/BT.
It's almost like camping and tunneling have nothing to do with the speed at which gens are done.
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Tunneling is the fault of the Killer. That's practically throwing the match away, more often than not.
The point of the game for Survivors is to power the Generators, so I'm not sure why "gen rushing" is even a thing. That's the point. To power the Generators. What else do you want Survivors to do? Just be a better Killer and stop complaining.
The real issue is camping. That's something that needs to be addressed. It, literally, breaks the game for whoever is on the Hook.
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Gen rushing is not issue, but camping is? Isn't killer objective to kill? and camping is one way of doing so. If survivors are smart the rush the gens turning it into 1k
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I think the thought process is, if we slow down gennys a bit killers wouldn't feel the need to tunnel.
As of now with gennys getting done quickly getting a survivor out quickly is a necessity.
So fix gen speeds and killers may play less sweaty.
It's a theory anyway.
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Survivors have plenty of perks to counter camping and tunneling
-DS
-Borrow time
-Deliverance
-Kindred
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If certain killers want to camp, that game is over for a survivor. There's nothing survivors can do that makes the game unplayable for killers. It's especially fun when you wait 20 minutes for a game and then get face camped within the first 30 seconds. I guess spamming x to buy time for my teammates to do gens though while I'm face camped by a Bubba or Billy is fun and interactive.
I don't know what you mean. Just three games in a row where everyone either died on the first hook or went into struggle and then was tunneled out of the game with basement camping killers. IT'S FUN. Update - 4th game the killer DC'ed after the face camping failed due to my BT.
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That's what I meant by "rebalancing the killer objective", since facecamping and tunneling are tactics generally employed by killers in service of that objective, in the same way that rushing gens is a popular tactic employed by survivors in service of theirs.
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Gen rush isn’t real. The objective of game for survivor is to repair gens and bounce. Like what do people want survivors to do? Start match and wait 5-6 min as a courtesy to killer players? Maybe disturb some crows or take in the scenery a bit?See how stupid that sounds when you say it out loud?
Gens are an objective and good players get objectives done quickly. Same goes for killer. Their objective is to prevent escapes. No one likes to lose hence the many complaints. In this style game, someone has to lose which is why it appears unbalanced. There’s no way around it
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Too situational and they don't do enough to address the issues. Especially DS, which only works one time. Meanwhile you can be camped and tunneled twice. Same with camaraderie which requires another Survivor to waste time camping you as well, and alerts the killer that there's someone in the area. Borrowed only delays the inevitable, and that's assuming the person can even unhook you. As there's no perk to protect The Rescuer from a camping killer.
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thats the thing...
to counter a camping killer you gen rush him...
there is nothing much else you can do to counter a camper
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People literally camp because of gen speeds in this game. Lesser skilled players don't know how to overcome it.
Hell, skilled players can't do anything about it at times.
I down voted the OP at least a 100Xs in my head.
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Why are you even talking about this issue. The Dev's aren't going to do anything to gen times. When killers still get taken down while survivors keep getting bought up. And when they do finally nerf something ex balanced landing entitled survivor mains get mad. And blame bad killers for them genrushing.
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camp one person, lose the game because the other survivors can do generators
i dont really understand your logic
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It's not even about the depip for me, because a 1K deserves a derank, it's about being fair to both sides. If 9 hooks, 5 damaged generators, a bunch of destroyed pallets, a near maxed surprise attack score, and a strong chase score isn't enough to pip, then one gen, half a heal, and a totem sure shouldn't be enough. That's another reason matchmaking is so screwed right now, it's next to impossible to derank as survivor.
Couple of ways you can fix that. If a killer is close to a survivor for more than 15 seconds and not in a chase, remaining members get a 33% speed bonus to all repair actions. You could also introduce a martyr score for the person on hook, say 7K bloodpoints and a lot towards pipping
.A true genrush absolutely makes the game unplayable for killer. Again, all 5 gens done in under 5 minutes, you literally CANNOT pip if that happens, even if you get the 4K, you will get brutal.
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That's one possible outcome depending on the team but if I'm the one being Camped I have no control what other people do. When you're being camped there is no mechanism to address that. I like the idea that someone suggested that you get multiple blood point if the Killer is camping you and you just let the timer burn out. Most people try to unhook themselves or simply let go because they feel it's hopeless, that benefits the killer but I totally understand why.
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As someone who plays both, I have to say you make a good point. I for one however see nothing wrong with gen speeds as they are. Killers have abilities and a advantage, period. Rather people want to accept this fact or not is up to them. But in my eyes people who complain either need to practice more or come up with a different strategy for different situations. You won't believe how many killers I have easily outfoxed simply because they don't pay enough attention, or use the resources they are given.
I'm not a killer main, and I highly doubt I'm the best there is. So if I can somehow get 4Ks with no perks equipped at all and average 3-4ks in general with them around 90 something percent of the time, then people need to search inside themselves. You are a killer. You are the hunter. It is your job to have a game plan and to go with the flow. Having something handed to me in my eyes would be quite boring.
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If your team is getting kill rushed, then that means there are some very bad teammates on your team.
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What besides self-congratulation do you want to express here?
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I personally hate killers that camp, but that can be countered by the other survivors working on gens. What I see in a lot of games is that once a player gets hooked all the other survivors run to rescue them. That's what makes it valuable to the killer. If survivors worked on gens while the killer camped, then he would likely only get one hook and one kill, losing a lot of BP. It's a terrible strategy for a killer. If all survivors did that instead of constantly rushing the hook, camping would cease to be a viable option.
I started running kindred, which really helps (with most killers). Most times people still go for the save, but in one game I was hooked in the basement on my first hook, and the killer placed a trap at the bottom of the stairs and stood in the corner waiting for someone to come down to rescue me. He, of course, didn't know that they could see him camping. They kept on working on gens, and on hung on the hook for every second, knowing I was wasting the killers time, while everyone else completed gens. It was very satisfying. If more people did that, camping killers would realize that it isn't a good strategy.
It would maybe be nice to give players BP for time on the hook. We might see fewer DC's and hook suicides.
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DbD has a large problem in that the best or at least easiest strategies for both sides are to deny the opposing side a chance to play. The tutorial for this game doesn't help new killers at all. The most intuitive strategy for a new killer is to tunnel and camp the first survivor they find. Most new players are not going to automatically understand the nuances of pressuring gens and spreading the love. Inexperienced survivors will reward hook camping by rushing the hook, giving the killer a win, reinforcing the idea that tunneling and camping is the correct way to play killer. When killers rank up and go against survivors who play efficiently (aka "gen rush"), then they get frustrated and tunnel and camp just to try to secure that one kill. Again, there is nothing in the game to teach killers how to play.
Playing "fairly" should be built into the game mechanics. Instead, killers are expected to be the Dungeon Master, giving survivors a fun time, but the killers still have their own objective to kill survivors and it's ridiculous to expect them to play against their own self-interests to benefit the opposing side. When they get 2 or fewer kills, they get told "Entity Displeased." Devs say 2 kills and 2 escapes is the goal, but the game makes damn sure killers feel like a failure for anything less than a 4k.
Camping, tunneling, and gen rushing are all strategies that deny the opposing side a chance to play the game. That's not fun. The game needs more structure. Camping and tunneling shouldn't be possible strategies (and I don't mean killers should be punished for doing those things, I mean they literally shouldn't be possible). Doing generators is boring; they should be more fun to do, and the game itself should balance gen times by scaling their difficulty with survivor ability (not rank, ability). Or there should be multiple objectives. Something. But it's a problem that as survivors gain experience they become able to both rush through the main objective and waste more of the killer's time in a chase; in other words, they increase the amount of time it takes for a killer to complete his objective while also decreasing the amount of time a killer has.
Perks shouldn't be the answer to balancing the game. Ever. Perks should be for either fun or to help in areas where the player struggles; they should not be band-aid fixes for poor game design.
There are a lot of areas where DbD is deficient. Players don't have to give suggestions for how to deal with every single problem in the game, though. If they have a suggestion to help with gen times but not camping, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not their job to fix the game; they're not devs.
Personally, at this point I see the majority of suggestions as falling short. Most players are trying to tweak the current system, and I think changes on a larger scale are needed. But that's just my opinion.
Post edited by TragicSolitude on2 -
Tbf the game punishes the killer hard for being too efficient
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while gen speed is arguably an issue (hence the over-reliance on Pop/Ruin) if the killer is chasing/tunneling/camping then obviously the gens are going to be done at lightning speed
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Honestly the problem really isn't Jen speeds it's just how how long mindless chases can be done.
I'm not talking about skills survivors juking, putting off good loops and mind games I'm talking about out running in the potato roundabout until x super safe pallet gets dropped.
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"self-congratulation?" Interesting how you are so angered over someone joining in on a open forum. Especially since you didn't read and or actually pay attention to the post.
It's surprising that people wonder why the DBD community is so rife with toxicity and hate mail, when people who act like you are abound. Good grief lol
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Have you considered the fact that a lot of killers tunnel and camp to try to pull survivors off gens?
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Well I think people like you are what makes this forum toxic, but fine. I completely read your post, the essence of it is that you think other players are too stupid and the game is fine as it is.
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Yes I supposedly make the forum toxic, and yet you chose to attack me for no reason over an opinion...Your logic certainly makes sense.
For the record? No, you didn't understand anything, obviously because you didn't want to.
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