They balance for a 50/50 kill/survive ratio
Going off the last public information they stated (that I know of).
They aim for games to generally end with 2 survivors living and two survivors dieing.
I feel like BHVR needs to more address the feeling that letting survivors escape does to the killer. I mean you are the killer. It sucks and feels bad when anyone escapes. You're supposed to be this terrible monster. Yet the game is designed around having at least half of your prey escape. There needs to be more ways to communicate to killers in game that it's alright to let one or two people escape.
Comments
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After these killer nerfs, it's been more than just two escapes.
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Clown is the closest to this ratio of 50% kill rate, there's a reason nobody plays him. He's awful having no mobility tool, no stealth tools, and no slowdown tools and all he gets are potentially quicker chases. That is what moronic survivors who played 4 matches of killer and thus know everything want, that is what 50% kill rate looks like
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If you facecamp and turbo tunnel one survivor at a time, you will likely get a 1 or 2 kill game as killer. You will not likely get more, but you will similarly not likely get less. so.... best way to attain balance is to pick two people and just ruin their game?
I can't stand that 50/50 target. Like most stat collecting with this game, it completely ignores a multitude of very important variables.
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Killer hypocritic mentality in a nutshell...
"I'm speshul, I want to win more and have more fun than the other side, survivors are not worthy and are second-class players, they should just die, so I can have fun and if not, I will go rage to the forum".
People play games for fun, no one cares what role you play, be it killer or survivor, no one will sacrifice his time on this game, so you could have fun, just because you are the killer.
You just want to be spoon fed, life doesn't work like that, get used to it.
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heres the thing though they balance for two kills but lets be realistic your never going to pip if you get two kills per game you have to get at least three to pip as killer
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Are you serious? So just because there are 4 survivors it's ok to have a game that is a detriment to the 1 killer in a match? "Just shut up and take it! We're supposed to have fun here!" That's what this sounds like.
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DBD is not a horror movie. It's barely even a horror game at this point.
No, survivor players will not accept being 3 to 4kd every game to satisfy killer players' bizarre power fantasies. That's not how game design or game balance works.
Until people design a PVE DBD-esque game that'll never be a thing.
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Survivor hypocritic mentality in a nutshell. . .
Talks about people playing the game for "fun" but the gets mad that people are complaining about killer not being fun.
Then you complain saying killers want to be spoon fed while survivors a literally being spoon fed.
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Lol. It’s a game. That to me sounds like you take it too seriously. Video games are about having fun, and If killlers don’t have fun for whatever reason why are they playing killer? It’s as simple as that. All the nerfs and buffs in the world won’t change that
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I think you can pip in all but red ranks with a 50/50 ratio.
Which is something I agree with. They shouldn't balance around something, and then comment they work towards something when said thing is impossible to do in their own game (pip at red ranks at a 50/50 ratio).
Agreed
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So the tagline of "death is not an escape" is just to imply that survivors are going to survive at a 50% rate when they learn the intricacies of the game? I don't understand the logic here.
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Whinge whinge bloody whinge 😴
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The tagline is a selling point to the game.
NO ONE is gonna play a game where their chance at winning is that small. Again, look for a PVE game if you want to kill everything every single time. You're playing against real people who didn't install the game to please you.
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That's literally why i bought the game. To do what i could in game before the inevitable death came raining down on me in the form of the killer and then the entity claiming my soul. I didn't buy the game for the bullying simulator that it has been transformed into.
Edit: And anyways, when did it become normal for survivors to feel they are entitled to that 50% survival rate? Like i remember when i felt accomplished walking out that exit gate. Now it's rare that i don't.
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That's most definitely not why most people bought the game. You're an exception.
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I guess so. People really did buy it for the bully simulator game it has become. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
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It was from the live streaming they used to do like almost every month.
And it isn't a 50% survive ratio. Ratios could be screwed. It's just they said they generally want 2 survivors to escape, and 2 survivors to die.
I wish a Dev would actually chime in so we have more information if they are still aiming towards that then 2-3 year old information.
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This game is not a bully simulator LUL. It has never been less survivor sided, objectively speaking. You're probably just not that good as killer.
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The flip side is 80% of the players have to play survivor for balance. Why would they keep playing just to die every round, which feels worse than seeing people escape? They're players too.
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Would be a good but the issue still exists that they need some way to communicate that to the players in game. Atm it's failing.
I mean, rights after release the game was heavily survivor sided. Up until sabo got nerfed really. Man clearing the maps of hooks was nice.
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In a way, this is on the nose. It's not fun to take the game seriously. Like, ever. That's why I so often meme around as killer rather than actually playing for real. The nerfs/buffs don't affect me if I don't even try to hook survivors. They get to escape and sometimes even barely see me, I get to do dumb stuff like pretend to work on gens as Pig, everyone's happy.
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I mean a 2 live/2 die ratio has worked out for them so far. A 45-60% win ratio also helps other games like league and DotA retain players. It also depends on how long a game is as well.
You died in a 10 minute match? It sucks bit you'll just move on.
You died in a tough as nails 30 minute match? Well that really blows.
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Exhibit A that the devs prioritize survivors and the game is actually still quite heavily survivor sided.
And btw, i love the generic "git gud" response from people when they don't want to accept reality.
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You're the one not accepting reality. This game is more balanced than it ever was. You can't say it's "become" a bully simulator when it trends in the opposite direction. The only explanations are 1. you're a new player or 2. you got worse as killer at a higher pace than survivors got nerfed over the years. Nothing else.
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That's unfortunate for them, just like survivors that for whatever reason expect to escape before they've actually left the match. This is more of a multiplayer action game with a horror theme than an actual horror game.
One thing's for sure though, if they really want to go for the 50% goal of theirs killer emblems in high ranks need to change to actually work with that goal, even if emblem-cucking elements like instadowns or ... Plague in general are involved.
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I 100% agree. One reason why I want an update to see if this is still their goal.
In part because it's a good goal to have. Even with their flaw that they need to communicate it more effectively in game.
That and red rank emblems like you said completely counter act those goals. Well the emblems didn't untill they made it harder and harder to rank up.
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I play just as much survivor as killer when I can be bothered with the queue times and I wish it was less easy to escape. Idk if other survivors feel accomplished when they escape because the map was ormond, mother's dwelling, fractured cowshed, etc etc and went against a killer that can't get from one side of the map to the other quickly, but I don't especially.
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you mean they balance for a killer depip, in other words
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If more than two survivors escape, it doesn't feel like an accomplishment to me as a survivor because that means the match was too easy. If two survivors escape, whether or not it feels like an accomplishment depends on how much effort was actually expended in the match. If only one player escapes, it can be kind of thrilling, or it can feel like the killer got cucked out of a 4k they deserved because the game's RNG wasn't in their favor.
... Man, doing this game's objective as solo survivor is one of the least rewarding experiences in any game I've ever played. It's so much more fun to do anything else than worry about gens or escaping.
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Or they could consider there’s 4 people outside killers. So having them 4K each game drives players out, especially new ones. I get killers want a 4K but it shouldn’t be easy to obtain.
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Since the rank update that made ranks harder to get?
Yep, for red ranks. Which is also a flaw they need to fix along with communicating it is okay to let 1-2 survivors go.
Actually it is possible. You can get gold - silver - iridescent - iridescent and pip (13 point to pip).
It's just extremely unlikely.
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Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
I am neither a new player nor am I getting worse at the game. I only keep getting better and better as time goes on. I'm just getting more and more fed up with the imbalances that affect my experience in both survivor and killer.
On survivor, the most aggravating things are things that i feel have been hamstrung onto killer players. If i'm the first one found, i go down. Not consistently fast nor slow. It is dependent on my skill at any point in the chase and decision making ability throughout. What is really frustrating is the invisible tether that has been placed on the killer to stick around afterwards. If they leave, I get rescued and may never even be chased again with how fast the gens go. If they stay, they get punished for it. Survivor players literally cried to the devs to implement punishments to staying too close to the hook under any circumstances. Even if all 3 of the survivors are running around like morons around the hook. That play-style already had a natural punishment even before the Victory Cube days. Do the gens and the killer gets less BP. But that wasn't enough. People that wanted to go through that exit gate over and over kept whining and moaning until the devs made it to where there is this 50% survival entitlement for survivor players now. I'd rather have a game where if i escape, it was hard earned and feels awesome to have done so. Something rare when it happens, but makes you feel like you accomplished something.
Now lets focus more on the killer aspect of it.
Game starts, immediately, i gotta run and find someone and fast. Find someone. Gotta hit them fast. Running around a loop for too long? Dang, i'm losing time following this guy, but if i leave now this time has been wasted. Bing. Gen 1, 2, or even 3 are done.
This is just the beginning of the match and you feel that pressure immediately and heavily. It's go go go. And most of the chases are dependent on the survivors mistakes, not your own prowess. The number of safe loops and pallets make it to where if you hit the survivor during the chase they were - A. Out of position B. Misread a situation at a safe location that ended up in a hit for the killer or C. At an unsafe pallet or loop and got hit inevitably
Killer gameplay is definitely more engaging and fast paced since you are by yourself dealing with 4 opponents, but it also leads to frustration because you lack the tools necessary to even be a threat to the team. You might be a threat to an individual at certain points in the match, but unless the survivors make a critical error, you aren't a threat to the collective.
And if we want to get into the balance aspect of things, let's look at what could probably be the two prime examples of the most broken things in the game. Mori's and Brand New Parts.
Which of these got changed first? Mori's
Let's look at something less powerful for both sides. Instant Heals and the old machine gun build? (In case you didn't know, that was STBFL and Unrelenting stacking swing cooldowns)
Which of these changed first? Machine gun build, with over 2 year headstart btw.
Every change that has been made to the game has come expediently for when it is deemed OP in the favor of killers, but when it comes to things that make the game aggravating for them, the developers drag their feet. Have the devs even acknowledged that the sounds in the game are altered for the benefit of survivors?
If you want to ignore the bias of the devs fine, there really isn't more that I can say, nor anyone else can say that will change your mind probably. Like i said before, this game is a bully simulator. Play killer for more than a day, and you feel that. Play killer at high rank, and within the first 3 matches you'll probably wanna go back to survivor or stop playing.
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Sorry I really can't even take the idea of a 50/50 ratio as the target seriously at all. Not when I've seen survivors declare "GG EZ" when I killed three of four and the last escaped by hatch. Half of the survivors fail and the killer gets half a failure. Yay, fun. We're having fun! Right? Probably not.
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False.
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before they do that they should update their emblems.
i usually depip with a 2k.
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That means your other emblems were lacking as well.
It's possible to pip at red ranks with a gold-silver-iridesent-iridesent set of emblems.
Or with a gold-gold-gold-iridesent combo. It's possible to get a gold devote if you hook every survivor once, kill 2, and get 9 hook events.
See, you're viewing not killing as a fail. It isn't. I mean you can play like that but it isn't a fail. You are also letting survivors get under your skin despite getting 3 of them.
It sounds like you are the type of person I made this thread about. That there needs to be better communication to the killer side that 2k is not a failing state. It is possible to fail with 2k but if you do, you would most like be lacking in other areas as well.
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You're obviously not even listening to what I'm telling you. It's a failure by degrees. If you fail to kill half of the survivors then you've half failed. Since you immediately restructure my argument for me to suit your own preconceptions it sounds like you see and hear whatever you want to hear in order to confirm your own intrinsic bias. If SWF have a fair chance to all escape then Killer should have a fair chance to kill them all. Fair's fair. Half's half.
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You're not understanding the actual goal of the game.
You say that if two people escape, you half failed. That's not true. You are exactly the type of person I made this thread about.
The goal of the game is not to kill the survivors. That is not the win state of the killer. The killer's win state in to pip. Which at minimum requires 2 kills in red ranks if you do well everywhere else. You pip and thus succeed, or you don't.
Edit: okay yeah you can tie / draw if you safety. It isn't a fail, but not a success.
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So what you're claiming is that the goal of the survivors is to survive but the goal of the killers isn't to kill? Seems pretty obvious to me what the goal is just by the roles being discussed. You can label me this "exact type of person" all you want but that's the worst mistake you'll ever make in this discussion: If you make the implication that killers are supposed to do anything other than their job in the structure of the game, then demonize them for it, but survivors are supposed to metagame a victory as hard as they can there's no reasoning with you.
It is all too common to see Survivors declare victory "GG EZ YOU LOST" because one person escaped out the hatch. One. I've seen dozens of screenshots of survivor teams degrading and insulting killers for doing exactly what they're supposed to do. If you want to tell people what constitutes a win maybe you should start with Survivors themselves.
I used to drop the last survivor on the hatch. I used to just let people have the extra bloodpoints. Not anymore. Because of Survivors' attitude and their blatant disregard for my own accomplishment that doesn't happen. Killers aren't allowed to feel accomplished for partial failures. Survivors see to that regularly enough.
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What does "2 kills" even mean? How many hooks should that be?
Do I sacrifice one and camp the other to death?
Do I hook 10 times and let the other survivors barely get away?
Do I hook 5 times and get two kills?
They don't adress how much effort the killer has to make.
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Dbd is so much fun
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Wait....so the 50/50 balance thing actually came from bhvr? I just assumed it was something people who've never played killer said.
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No. You guys aren't understanding.
They're not aiming for 50/50 as the goal. They are aiming for a 50/50 average to balance.
That means you may 4K some games and 0K some other games. You may escape 2 games in a row and then die 2 games in a row. It's literally saying that they're trying to balance the "win" average right down the middle of both sides.
As for all of you saying you can't pip with a 2K, you're not supposed to. I know the ranking system isn't perfect, but @Peanits and other devs have said multiple times that pipping should only be a result of performing over the baseline. If you 4K, you are performing better than your opponents, and you are (theoretically) playing at a higher skill (rank) than them. Ergo, you rank up, and they (theoretically) derank.
Pips are not supposed to be just handed out like free samples. They are meant to represent (again, theoretically) where you belong in the game, skill wise. In a perfect mathematical scenario, your rank is meant to put you in that place where you honestly have a 50% kill/survival average. That means you are playing with opponents that match your skill level. Balancing to anything less/more is literally asking one side to be okay with losing a majority of their games.
All that being said, most of the stats show that killers perform at a 60-70% kill average. So it's still higher than that baseline. And honestly, I'm so sick of seeing everyone in this community (on both sides) complaining about balance. You're supposed to be having fun. And if you're not having fun, then honestly, just move onto something else. Because the negativity is suffocating.
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I don't think that the problem is Killer's wanting 4K, I personally don't care to get 4K as a Killer and this isn't the balance issue that we should be looking at, the issue which I explained in another similar thread just a moment ago is the following: 50/50 Balance doesn't work when balance is different in every rank...
(One thing I will add is I have heard before from Killers at Red Ranks that it is extremely difficult to pip without getting 3-4K, I cannot speak to this because I have never even gotten to Red Rank as Killer before, probably because 100% of my matches in Purple Ranks are against full on Red Rank Survivors) Please Continue Reading to understand the bigger issue at hand:
"The statistics are an issue that causes this problem of perception.
Truth is, Killer's are really easy to get 4K's with throughout the "majority" of ranks. Probably all the way to about Rank 8 or so it is very easy to get 4K as a "decent" killer with practice.
But once you hit Rank 8, all you end up facing are Red Rank Survivors. Rank 8-5 every single one of my matches had at least 3 Red Rank 2-4 Survivors and most of them were in parties of 2 or more SWF.
Once this happens, and you start playing against those type of Survivors.. all of the sudden you start seeing constant 4 Survivors escaping.
The bottom line, and truth of the game, is that once you get into "Red Ranks" which is the "End-Game" of DBD technically, especially for a Killer who automatically pips whether they try to or not because of EASY 4K's in Ranks 20-8 .. all of the sudden the game becomes EXTREMELY Survivor sided.
I really honestly wish we could just play an "Unranked" game mode for fun whenever we don't feel like playing like a "sweaty try-hard" or want to practice a new Killer, but there is NO SUCH GAME MODE... which means, we go from literally having to not try AT ALL to get 4K against bad Survivors to all of the sudden having to constantly try our HARDEST and still get wrecked by Pro Survivors.
A lot of this has to do with skill and the extreme learning curve and skill cap of DBD unfortunately, I suppose for both Killer and Survivor.. but there just really isn't a good middle ground.
Green ranks you would think is the middle ground, but it is still too easy for Killer.
Purple ranks is way too hard because you are now facing Red Rank survivors. Red Rank survivors are honestly too good at the game, and have too many tools to succeed in safe looping Killers and Gen rushing and working as a team.
This means that in the END. ULTIMATELY the BEST KILLER in the entire game vs. THE BEST 4 SWF SURVIVORS .. will never really have a chance, unless he just gets super lucky. At 100% optimal performance, Survivors will ALWAYS win, because its 4v1.
This is the problem for Killers, and EVERY single time there is a new Killer Nerf to help "New Survivors" because it its TRUE that it is WAY TOO EASY to KILL Inexperienced Survivors.. it just Widens the gap even more for Killers to do well against the "Pro Red Rank Survivors" that are already dominating them.
At least this has been my experience thus far, and in my opinion the biggest issue with balance in DBD. Somehow Balancing has to be done in ways that make it more challenging for the "Pro Survivors" and yet easier for the "New Survivors" in order to be fair for the Killer. But as of now any Survivor change or Killer change effects ALL Survivors ability at the same time."
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Yes, it actually came from BHVR during their streams a few years ago. Their goal is 2 kills / 2 escapes on average. So some games might be 4k, most might be 2/2, others 0k. If it averages to 2/2 then they are happy.
Kills means kills. It means at the end of the game, you see 2 skulls and 2 doors.
What it takes to get to that average is up for debate.
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Balancing around stats will NOT work. Im suprised they think it will work...
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