The real issue-killers want average 3-4k kills balance

A big issue isn't the number of kills. A game where you get 2 kills can still feel like a victory, while one where you get 3 feels like a failure.

A lot of it comes down to the fact that, especially for more 'controlly, passive' killers, you never actually get into a groove where you feel remotely in control of the match. A big reason why killers really hate SWF is that the ability to communicate your in a chase and the killer's activity makes chases very negative for the killer in terms of match control, because they take a long time and unless you get a kill or good hook off them they don't create much pressure.

In essence, you feel like your constantly on the back foot, rather than like a predator chasing people down. Chases where someone slips away 5 seconds into them feel way better than chases that last a minute where I get the down and a kill because the guy was just looping a safe bunch of pallets and I chose trapper because he is fun when he works.

A lot of the issue comes around waxing about how 'unfun' it is for the survivor to 'not get to play.' But in game design, often player elimination is a mercy. A survivor run out of the game lost through not being good enough to evade detection and capture, and is in theory free to just watch or play another game. A Killer who is just getting run about and who falls behind on Gen pressure is in a worse spot because they are obligated to keep playing. You are stuck in a game you know you aren't going to win, you can't even do side objectives because your ONLY objective is player interaction. Survivors sometimes complain they don't have anything to do besides repair for their objective but that is a total joke, killers HAVE to interact with survivors and that interaction is often defined by extreme frustration.

This is part of why Killers would like a surrender feature. They WANT to be able to lose matches with dignity because despite being the 'power role' killers have very little control over the game's tempo if they don't IMMEDIATELY start neutralizing players.

This is why, even for a killer who DOESN'T care about wins but just cares about emblems or having a good time, they will often tunnel out one survivor if they detect weakness. If you get rid of a survivor before 2 gens pop, your 'ahead of curve' and have the freedom to do more stall oriented play. If the survivors ever manage to get the number of remaining gens below their own player count suddenly you just don't have time and are rushing about like a headless chicken in a very unfun way.

I think the IDEAL DBD balance point is that, on average, 2.5 players lose, including the killer, and the game de-emphasizes cooperation among the survivors. It was like this when the game came out, cooperative play such as looping legitimately didn't work and for survivors to rank they had to play selfishly, viewing other survivors and evaluating them on how much time they took off gens vs how much of the killer's time they ate up. But a big issue with SWF is that it makes it so that EVERY survivor is super emotionally invested in ANY survivor dying, which is a problem when the killer's main interaction with the survivor's that is positive for them is killing one. SWF also hurts the virtue of player elimination: Solo survivors who get eliminated borderline don't give a ######### because they just Q up for a new game. SWF survivors need to wait for the game to end, and are in a similar (though still better) position of that 'hostage killer.'

It is not remotely an accident that the push to punish killers for trying to efficiently eliminate players despite it being a KEYSTONE of how the game is balanced came about after SWF came out.

It's ridiculously easy to pip red rank survivor. I can +1 easy and still die. Killers take so much more to pip. Also, there are 4 people any given game trying their best to prevent my pip. That's why I stopped playing killer. Used to be red rank. But now I stick to green ranks and only do dailies. Best thing about being green rank? I still get to play against red rank survivors! *sarcasm alert to those who don't grasp it*

I had the opposite reaction I went from a solo survivor to a killer and I don't really feel bad for them since bad teammates is the biggest problem and you can't really change it not to mention the tons of safety nets they have

How is a 2k a loss for a survivor when it's easy to pip as a survivor

Anyone remember the Victory Cube we had? It was only about hooks to get pips.

If killer would put on hook every survivor 2 times, that would be safe pip. (8 hook points for safe pip.)

A full sacrifice counted as 4 hook points.

playing fair and killing only 1 survivor was a pip.

Now remind me why did we moved to Emblems? I think that devs just want survivors dead. Dont hold back from Mori, Rancor and the best killer add-ons. Do your best to 4k.

EDIT: https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Victory_Cube

I don't think that the problem is Killer's wanting 4K, I personally don't care to get 4K as a Killer and this isn't the balance issue that we should be looking at, the issue which I explained in another similar thread just a moment ago is the following:

(One thing I will add is I have heard before from Killers at Red Ranks that it is extremely difficult to pip without getting 3-4K, I cannot speak to this because I have never even gotten to Red Rank as Killer before, probably because 100% of my matches in Purple Ranks are against full on Red Rank Survivors) Please Continue Reading to understand the bigger issue at hand:

"The statistics are an issue that causes this problem of perception.

Truth is, Killer's are really easy to get 4K's with throughout the "majority" of ranks. Probably all the way to about Rank 8 or so it is very easy to get 4K as a "decent" killer with practice.

But once you hit Rank 8, all you end up facing are Red Rank Survivors. Rank 8-5 every single one of my matches had at least 3 Red Rank 2-4 Survivors and most of them were in parties of 2 or more SWF.

Once this happens, and you start playing against those type of Survivors.. all of the sudden you start seeing constant 4 Survivors escaping.

The bottom line, and truth of the game, is that once you get into "Red Ranks" which is the "End-Game" of DBD technically, especially for a Killer who automatically pips whether they try to or not because of EASY 4K's in Ranks 20-8 .. all of the sudden the game becomes EXTREMELY Survivor sided.

I really honestly wish we could just play an "Unranked" game mode for fun whenever we don't feel like playing like a "sweaty try-hard" or want to practice a new Killer, but there is NO SUCH GAME MODE... which means, we go from literally having to not try AT ALL to get 4K against bad Survivors to all of the sudden having to constantly try our HARDEST and still get wrecked by Pro Survivors.

A lot of this has to do with skill and the extreme learning curve and skill cap of DBD unfortunately, I suppose for both Killer and Survivor.. but there just really isn't a good middle ground.

Green ranks you would think is the middle ground, but it is still too easy for Killer.

Purple ranks is way too hard because you are now facing Red Rank survivors. Red Rank survivors are honestly too good at the game, and have too many tools to succeed in safe looping Killers and Gen rushing and working as a team.

This means that in the END. ULTIMATELY the BEST KILLER in the entire game vs. THE BEST 4 SWF SURVIVORS .. will never really have a chance, unless he just gets super lucky. At 100% optimal performance, Survivors will ALWAYS win, because its 4v1.

This is the problem for Killers, and EVERY single time there is a new Killer Nerf to help "New Survivors" because it its TRUE that it is WAY TOO EASY to KILL Inexperienced Survivors.. it just Widens the gap even more for Killers to do well against the "Pro Red Rank Survivors" that are already dominating them.

At least this has been my experience thus far, and in my opinion the biggest issue with balance in DBD. Somehow Balancing has to be done in ways that make it more challenging for the "Pro Survivors" and yet easier for the "New Survivors" in order to be fair for the Killer. But as of now any Survivor change or Killer change effects ALL Survivors ability at the same time."

And by the way, I am only a Green/Purple Rank Survivor and I think Killers are WAY too strong against me, but I also happen to know that I am NO WHERE NEAR as good of a player as Red Rank Survivors who can do ######### I have never been able to do before ever.. and maybe never will be able to.. which means yes I WANT Killers to be weaker against "newer survivors or less skilled survivors such as myself" but at the same time KILLERS NEED to be Stronger against the pro best of the best Survivors that can LITERALLY bully Killers all game long and escape with 4 without even seemingly trying.