Hm, an easy & simple solution to Ruin? Take a quick look..
Sorry, I apologize because I know how many Ruin posts have been made recently, and in fact I myself have gotten quite over seeing them and tired of it.. so I understand where you are coming from.
But the last Ruin post I saw last night had like over 10 pages of ideas and information, which many of I read through and this was my response IN THAT thread, however, I landed my response all the way on page 10 when the thread was already dying out and it was easily overlooked.. maybe I'm crazy, but I think personally this (or something like this) would be the absolute simplest and most easy way to fix ruin in a healthy way perhaps and I am genuinely curious to your thoughts!
Here is what I wrote in the other thread on page 10.. :
"Hold up.. I see a lot of Ideas being thrown out there... but why not just literally keep it simple and to the point!
Keep RUIN a HEX : Just make it Reduce Gen Repair Speeds by like 30-50% while it is up. That's it. It will give us the early game pressure that we are looking for, it will not affect skill checks the way it did for "new players" before that created the problem, and it will still do a good job at slowing down gen speeds for like the first 2-3min of the game while the Hex is up..!
Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that no one had thought of this yet, it's such a simple solution!
Literally can be, 30% Reduced speed lv1, 40% lv2, 50% lv3. Obviously it IS going to be found, probably within the first 5min of the match, so it's not like gen speeds will be reduced all game long. But it will help prevent early game gen rush, and it still allows survivors to work on gens without worrying about "missing great skill checks". Which means they are allowed to have progress, just slower than normal.
Also it would give at least some level of synergy with Thanataphobia making that a more useful Perk than it is now, with the ability of potentially slowing gen speeds by 66% with 4 stacks while Ruin is up.. and forcing survivors to actually LOOK for Ruin rather than sit their gen rushing..
Man, I swear this is the best idea yet, and I didn't even mean to come up with it, I was just reading all the other more complicated ideas and was like, jesus all Ruin was is an attempt to slow early game gen pressure down so why not just keep it as simple as possible and do exactly what we want it to without overly complicated additions..?"
And I would add that this way, toolboxes don't necessarily have to be changed, a whole bunch of other stuff that people were suggesting wouldn't have to be changed like skill checks either.. just change the perk, and make it do what every killer wants it to do... but without the "great skill check" issue for new players.
The Repair speed reduction % was just example, it could be more or less if you guys think another % would be better...although I believe 50% repair speed reduction might literally be just perfect no? Especially with synergy of Thana and some other perks.
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I think 50 percent is a bit too much but I absolutely love this idea I think 20/25/30 would be fair. It is actually the simplest solution. I like how your brain works.
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lol thank you!
You may be right! They might have to do some testing on what the most fair % would be.. the reason I suggested 50% is because as of now usually my average Killer game with ruin goes like this..
I get 1 Hook and 5 gens are still up by the time Ruin is found and destroyed.
^^ The above is true for the majority of matches where Ruin isn't found immediately before I can even make any use of it, which wouldn't change either way since the way Hex Totems work.
But, I do believe in order to keep the same level of "Power" that Ruin had, where I can get 1 Hook and still see 5 gens up as I have been getting thus far with Ruin, it would have to be closer to 50% decrease in gen repair speeds. 90% of my matches though Ruin is found and destroyed by the time I get 1 hook, probably 5% of the time I get 2 hooks out of it, and very very rarely it isn't found for most of the game because it was hidden so well. That's like only 2% of the time probably.
Anyways, to keep the same level of strength as it was before, the gen speed reduction would have to be enough in my opinion so that on average a killer could hook at least 1 person 1 time before Ruin was found and destroyed, while still keeping 5 Gens up during this early game.
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Haha a bit surprised more people aren't having a similar reaction as me, I honestly thought it was kind of like a "no-brainer" epiphany! XD
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I like the thought, but up to 25% would be good, to be honest. That's adding 20 seconds onto each gen (if they're working on it alone). Any longer, and it will become a nuisance.
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It'll make the survivor side boring, and gens are already completely lame.
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I just a coldwind game with billy. I had someone on the hook in the first 45 seconds and I had someone on the hook at all times. Had two hooks at one point and a hook and a slug at another point, I did 4k the team in the end but they finished 4 gens with a very high map pressure throughout. So basically if you have insane map pressure, 4 gens will still get done.
The idea that objective time is long enough is ridiculous.
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My Counter-Argument to this is the following:
Right now a Survivor is claiming that doing a "Gen is Boring". So they want to get it done faster. But Killers are saying that the "Gens are being done Too Fast" which is also accurate without the old Ruin.
This change does not effect gen speed. It effects how a Perk works that used to slow down gen speed.
My Argument is that if the change I mentioned above takes place, it would make the Survivor side of the game LESS BORING. Why? Because instead of sitting on Gen all game trying to Gen Rush, you would have a "second objective" to do = Find the Hex Totem.
This honestly was already the case with the way "Old Ruin" worked, because most of the time even if someone stood on a gen at least one teammate if not more would be out looking for the Hex Ruin totem. It honestly wouldn't change the game very much from the way old ruin worked, which is the point. The main reason Old Ruin is being changed is because of the "Great Skill Check" issue new players had. If this is true, then my solution would not hurt those new players.
But the main reason Killer's are complaining about the "New Ruin" is because it offers literally no early game slow-down at all, which was the whole purpose of bringing Ruin in the first place for a killer.
If you don't play Killer, you don't understand how huge of a difference it is to start the game with 1 hook at 5 gens vs. 1 hook at 3 gens, basically if its 1 hook at 3 gens it might as well be GG for the killer already and at least 3 survivors are escaping that match, especially if you don't tunnel or camp.
That's all I am saying, so this potentially could make both killers and survivors happy.
Again, as for you claiming it would make the game "More Boring", I completely disagree. In fact, WHEN I play Survivor, I enjoy searching for Ruin MORE than I enjoy sitting on a Gen. I ALWAYS prefer / choose to be the teammate that searches for Ruin BECAUSE sitting on a Gen really is boring.
Perhaps with a Ruin that works the way I proposed.. EVERY player on the team could choose to search for Ruin, it creates a new objective, it makes the game more fun and entertaining for the Survivors, and it still gives Killers a little bit of time for early game pressure before all the sudden gens start popping left and right.
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I've been accused of being in favor for the new hex: ruin even though I have no opinion on it; and that's exactly the thing. I have no real opinion on it, because I never use ruin so my whole viewpoint thus far has just been to wait and see how creative people can get with it.
That being said, seeing the viewpoints of those who seem to be vehemently against it, this might solve a lot of the frustration. Maybe not for the people who think it shouldn't be a hex, but I feel like that's a complaint mostly because people just don't like the PTB ruin's effect either way, so they feel like it being a hex just makes it that much more useless. If the regular slowdown was implemented though it would still give the early game slowdown. I wouldn't even mind if the progress ended up being slower than ruin is on live servers, because I personally just found the red skill checks to be annoying. Not because I couldn't hit them (although I wasn't perfect), but mostly just the inconvenience of having to just let go of the gen and have the progress stop if i didn't hit it, or having somebody else stop my gen progress because they couldn't hit the skillchecks. That wouldn't be a problem either if the gen speed itself was just slowed, and I would still be encouraged to hit greats as it would get me that instant 2% bonus, which would be more valuable with a slower gen speed.
Not a bad idea.
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Thank you! Yes! You completely understand where I am coming from! This would potentially make both sides happy and still keep things similar as it were before, but less frustrating as a whole for Survivors!
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I feel like devs tend to rather stay away from flat action speed debuffs. I personally really like the new Ruin. It can still be quite good, but you do have to apply more map pressure to make it work. So you get rewarded for applying good map pressure. It is a nerf though, no doubt. But I don't think it's a big nerf.
I do think Ruin needed a nerf, it's just that with all the unbalanced maps, it might have been to early. But personally I'd much rather see them nerf Ruin and then maybe increase objective time slightly in general, so you don't need to use a specific perk to do so. If they'll ever do that. Of course, a second objective can only come hand in hand with a nerf to tunneling and camping, and a buff to solo survivors to even out the gap between them and swf survivors.
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The problem isn't just that its a nerf to Ruin but that it doesn't help with the one thing Ruin helped with any longer, it basically completely changed the functionality and reason for the perk, early game pressure / gen rush assistance.
Unfortunately from what I have read, Devs have already multiple times mentioned that they are not going to increase Objective times at all. Without doing so, the new Ruin change really does effect the game play for many Killers quite heavily.
There are Killers I never used Ruin on, Nightmare and Spirit just to name a few for example, they didn't need it. But Legion I hate playing without Ruin honestly, and I'm sure many other Killers would agree, some of them need that early game assistance, Trapper and Hag are another example.
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The only reason why ruin was used so much is from it actually giving you pressure in the early game since when you spawn in as killer you don't start with map pressure unless your billy or nurse which really didn't need ruin in my personal opinion. But there a lot of killers without mobility that would waste around 15 to 20 sec just to go from one of the map to the other. So from having ruin you can actually get the ball rolling from getting injuries, downs, hooks, which gets survivors off gens, even if it gets destroyed in 30 sec you can at least get a chase going in that amount of time which starts up your pressure as well. One thing that I can say from playing both killer and survivor at red ranks is that ruin is a hex perk so it can always get destroyed which bhvr doesn't understand and hitting great skill checks aren't the hardest thing to do unless your lagging. So I believe that ruin really didn't need a change since your taking a gamble with this perk in the first place.
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Along with skill checks, make survivors watch for “entity arms” to emerge from the gens and stab at them. Either run a few steps away to dodge, or scream and suffer a Deep Wound
- gen times increase by default
- gens are no longer lame, and are in fact quite dangerous
- fear returns to the game for veteran players (or at least an increased level of uneasiness), and this = fun.
- scanning for the killer is now more challenging since you’re watching the gen as well.
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Well it is an obvious idea. But remember that "those" survivors also suddenly started crying about being affected by a single stack of thanatophobia? You know, the perk that "only turns the action bar red" ?
Now imagine the outrage they find out they start the game with an actually high repairspeed penalty.
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I had suggested rework as a hex that adds 20 secs to gen repair and doesn't affects skill checks, or at most it disables great skill checks. I'm sure other people had similar ideas and I mirror the sentiment that it would be the no-brainer rework to be new-player friendly and to slowdown the early game. I get it that gen repair is boring, but it would be still a hex and gens would progress rather than regress like current Ruin. It would also be more balanced than new Ruin, which is potentially op on killers with high map pressure when by miracle it stays up and in 3-gen situations.
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Yes lol, I feel like the people that are getting me understand how easy of a solution this really is and keeps ruin close to as effective (where it needed to be) as before but still a fair balance for both Survivor AND Killer.
In fact it would be even MORE balanced than previous Ruin, disregarding the skill checks, because survivors would still be allowed to progress without any regression on gens, and at the same time it would still slow down gen speeds for killers EVEN against pro survivors that hit “Great Skillchecks” all the time where old ruin didn’t do anything against them at all...
I literally seriously cannot see or find a problem with this solution, it just screams easy balance to me! And no crazy complicated additional things necessary.
@Peanits hate to bug you with this, but can you see a problem with this that I am not seeing? So far for every scenario I can think of this would be pretty well balanced and still giving both killer and survivor something useful compared to the old ruin. Like I mentioned before in a counter argument, even providing more exciting gameplay for survivors, but keeping it very similar to how it used to be before still.
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I appreciate how strongly you thought about this to write me such a detailed response, thanks. I'm sorry, but I still disagree. I do agree with some bits, like hunting for totems is engaging and fun, but if we got all the survivors searching for one well placed totem, then that would be a mess. The snowball potential would be huge if we got a killer like Spirit, Billy, Trapper, Plague (to some extent) protecting the totems. Now, I don't think Ruin should have been reworked anyway, because most killers really do need it, and it keeps weaker killers more viable, but in the Devs defence, 'Ruin' can really ruin (no pun intended) the experiences for low rank players, so reworking it is sort of reasonable, but again, worse killers RELY on Ruin to have a chance.
I'm not sure how I feel about it honestly, I do main Spirit, and even after coming back from a break (It's been a while, returned yesterday, my survivor skills are like rank 20 level, but my killers haven't lessened as severely) I still rather easily won without Ruin.
But this is creating a slugging meta, which is no fun. Honestly, the more I think about it, the more it's a lose-lose, isn't it? Gens should be reworked to be more engaging in general, and have maybe mini activities to make them longer? Ruin is a bandaid for the gens being bad, so the devs reworking it, is actually a good sign. This may mean they're reworking gens anyway, and pre-nerfed the current Ruin since it's obviously become an issue.
I personally think finding parts would be the best solution, but you can still repair gens anyway, but with a time of maybe 100 base time? And parts (which must be well placed so it's not easy) can knock off a solid 25% of a gen. That would be a solid rework in my opinion. The parts when applying it to a gen, could perhaps just be an instant 25%. That would open up a whole new world of fun for both survivors and killers, since killers get a lot of extra time if the survivors run around looking for parts, and survivors would have fun.
But buffing a bandaid will NEVER work, so I therefore think your idea is flawed, but again, I admire your dedication to it, and respect your idea. This is coming from someone who DOES play both sides, has no problem with Ruin, and was a rank 1 quite consistently for both sides. This knowledge is from then, by the way, since the game hasn't changed much, I believe it's not too outdated.
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Lol gens get done so fast are you ok? Imagine playing killer and your match only lasts 5 min that’s lame
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I play killer too, and yes they get done fast. But slowing the absolute hell out of them also is a terrible answer to them. Not to mention, it's a bandaid, and isn't even a proper solution to use Ruin, gens need to be dealt with properly.
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Thank you for the more thorough response. Appreciate the effort back!
Actually I do agree with you on many things, when I had stated in the previous reply "EVERY" Survivor could be looking for Ruin, I realize that wouldn't be optimal.. but again, even if 2 Survivors were looking for it and 2 were doing Gens at lets say 20-50% decreased speed (whichever ends up being most fair) in the early game it might still end up making ruin feel the same way it felt before this rework for both Killers and Survivors.
I understand that Ruin is not the issue, the issue is Gen Speeds, and as you mentioned how boring Gens are to do in the first place, along with other underlying issues as well I am sure. But that's a lot to fix, and I've heard many devs clearly state that Gen Speeds are not going to be increased.. so therefore if we are just looking at the Ruin Rework alone, without ANY other factors involved, I still think you would possibly agree with me that MY Version of the Ruin Rework that I suggested is a better Rework than what they are currently offering, for both Killer and Survivor in many ways. This being said under the circumstance if nothing else changes, only Ruin. Does that make sense?
As far as your idea about having Gen Parts that Survivors could find and install to gens for example for "Instant 25% Progress" with perhaps like 2-3 difficult Skill Checks to succeed, I think would be a great idea and fun way to make the game more exciting for Survivors, at least for those of us that prefer "Searching for Totems" vs doing Gens as I do, then I could search for Gen Parts as well and actually feel like I am an effective part of the team without constantly sitting on a Gen. The only part of this I think would be unfair is if this allowed Survivors to complete all 5 gens without ever having to sit on one, therefore with Spine Chill and Urban Evasion they could possibly hide all game just collecting Gen Parts and almost never get caught so the Killer would waste insane amount of time searching for stealthy players. Perhaps they might do this but only allow it for the first 2 gens, so when there are only 3 gens left it means they would have to go back to completing them the old fashioned way. This would still potentially help slow down the early game and make it more interesting for everyone. Killers I think should be able to see the Gen Parts as well so they know where they are on the map and can keep track of them, not necessarily with an aura, just visually like dull totems are now. All that I would certainly agree with and I believe would keep it fair and balanced, although I think OVERALL Gen speed progress should be slowed down then, like maybe 20% decreased gen progress speed for the first 2 gens repaired on the map but allowing Gen Parts to be assembled, and then back to regular 100% normal gen speed for the last 3 gens on the map as it is now but no longer allowing Gen Parts.
I can see the above working, or even (while this would be less fun it would be easier to accomplish) just making it so when a match starts there is an automatic 30% Decreased Gen Speed, and each time a gen is completed give it 10% boost to Repair Speeds until it reaches Regular 100% normal speed again. Another way to slow down the early game slightly.
I will also add that I too play Survivor and Killer equally, and have no preference either way which is why I am trying to find solutions that are genuinely fun and balanced for both sides in my opinion. I have never been in Red Ranks as either Killer or Survivor, but since I typically play alone, I do better as Killer which I have been to Rank 5 with multiple times. I have gotten as low as Rank 6 once before on Survivor but typically sit in Green Rank. Solo Q has a lot to do with that, and my inability to loop killers. I think that playing Killer is easier until Purple Rank, but then all you face is Red Rank Survivors and I think it's too challenging especially vs SWF, where I believe killers are at a huge disadvantage at least in those ranks.
On Killer I mained Spirit or Nightmare most of my games thus far, and I never used Ruin on either of those killers, so honestly the Ruin rework doesn't really effect me all that much either to be honest, and the reason I created this post surprisingly was NOT for myself, it was not because I loved Ruin for any particular reason, I rarely used it only on certain Killers such as Legion (who I believe really does benefit a lot from Ruin unfortunately), but I do believe that the new Ruin "Rework" is unfair and doesn't accurately provide the same benefit at all whatsoever that the old Ruin was used for.. so now there is nothing that is great to use in replace of it for others who relied on Ruin, and that's why I created this post because after reading probably hundreds of ideas that were suggested in other threads on the topic of Ruin recently I still think my solution/suggestion really is the best and I haven't found any logical issues with it yet!
That being said, I genuinely am surprised at how little positive feedback I have gotten about it, and I wonder why that is, when other far worse suggestions got much more attention. Perhaps I just joined the conversation too late, because by now people are just simply tired about talking about the Ruin Rework in general. This is fair, but I still think my idea is ultimately the simplest and best solution for the current problem that was presented by the rework for players.
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I actually agree with that idea. With the first 2 gens requiring parts and the last 3 being normal. I hope a dev sees this and passes the idea on! You should make a separate thread on it, I think everyone will like this.
Also, the Ruin rework, I still can't agree on, but let's agree to disagree with that one, since I'm probably too unexposed to this, since I did just return after 5 months, and am currently catching up to my old skill. Once I've found my ground, I'll post on your wall what I think about it then, since my opinion will be more accurate when I'm rank 1 as both again.
:), bye!
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