RUIN + GEN SPEED // Adressing the elephant in the room
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Right now there is a big discussion about the upcoming change of Ruin and this goes hand in hand with the current debate about the gen speed/match length. I think this discussion is necessary but I think most discussions neglect there are way more problems which influence the current discussions which lead to survivor biased or killer biased argumentations or toxic behavior.
Those are the problems and connections I see right now. I do not claim this is correct nor do I think its a full list of problems which have a direct or indirect impact on the current debate about Ruin and Gen speed.
What do you think about these problems? Do you have an idea how the devs could adress these problems better than they do right now?
I think changing Ruin or the gen speed alone wont lead to a more balanced game.
Comments
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I tested the combination of Better together and Prove thyself as a solo survivor on rank 1. Not a single killer got a kill within 10 games and none of the games was longer than 6 or at max 7 minutes. Come on, dont tell me gen speed isnt a problem. ^^
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The elephant in the room is the fact that as a survivor it takes twice as long to find a game as it does to play one
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No, this is the result of the problems above. Why do you think survivors on certain ranks have to wait this long? I think its pretty obvious.
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I think that has to do with the Matchmaking System, not Ruin or Gen Speeds.
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I mentioned the matchmaking system aswell. It is of course also part of this issue. But its definitely not the main nor the only reason.
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@Atchoo I just don’t see how current or future Ruin is impacting the ability to get in a match.
At best the only thing I can assume from your graph is that killers affected by gen speed cannot proceed to rank up, which if that’s the case it’s a totally absurd statement.
Im not saying there is no point where you can get gen rushed, but I don’t personally find this to be a reason to not be able to find a match. It has to do with the game not wanting to pair me up with someone below my rank until it really has to.
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I did not say Ruin is the reason why it takes so long to get a lobby. Im pretty sure its a mixture of all those points above which currently lead to an imbalance (at least in red ranks).
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You are fighting a losing battle I agree with you but fact is devs are only concerned about the brain dead weak low rank survivors, instead of creating a challenging game they are more worried about making it fun and easy for noobs
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I kinda feel the same. Thats why I opened this discussion, I just wanted to show there are way more issues the devs have to take in consideration.
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Nice picture you got there :F
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Honestly gen speeds would solve most of those problems. The easiest way to solve this, in my opinion at least. Is require survivors to find something before they can start repairing gens. Like a tool belt or something. This would make sense. As how are you fixing gens without tools? It would also give survivors something to do. While giving the killers time to setup/get going.
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Yes, thats what i meant with lack of objectives. I dont blame survivors for doing their objective. I mean if the killer does not chase them, why should they refuse to work on gens?
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Go up against some rank 1-2 killers playing meta builds on killers like freddy or spirit, and you will be wishing you could rush the gens even faster.
Most killers who complain about gen rushing are just focusing one guy the entire match instead of spreading the damage, which is how you should be playing.
This is what gen rushing actually is, by the way:
Unless the survivors you are facing are rocking a build like this, you are probably just not applying enough pressure.
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The devs gotta be aware only "pressure" can be applied with high mobility killers
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A good killer is going to be dropping survivors left and right. Either by playing someone overpowered, or by actually using a good build on a regular killer.
Half the people complaining here are probably just tunneling some guy through god windows with an M1 killer, not knowing you could/should be running perks to cover those kinds of weaknesses.
The last 5-6 purple rank killers I faced all just tried to down me no matter the cost, even though I was prepared and in an extremely strong position. It usually costed them multiple generators to get a down. The last few red rank killers I faced all dropped those kinds of chases with 10-20 seconds and found better ones. Notice a pattern?
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I wont support one side more than another. I love to play killer and survivor. Thats why I tried to summarize as many issues as possible.
Regarding the argument of map pressure: This simply does not work for all killers. Hillybilly, Freddy, Oni.. are killers who can apply map pressure. But if you get large maps as Trapper, Ghostface, Leatherface etc. its almost impossible to apply pressure on all survivors at once.
Dont get me wrong map pressure is an important point.
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the pattern is that a killer is able to a̷̢̛̟ṕ̶͕͆p̵̹̍̊l̶͚̓͝y̶̙̋̔ ̵̤͒p̵̙̓͗ŗ̵͂e̶͈̚s̷̲̈͊s̴̝̗̀û̴̳̼͂r̵͎̓e when survivors unable to properly loop exist, otherwise you'll just drop chase after chase.
The other solution is properly balanced maps, not too big, not too many safe pallets, not too many connected loops.
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Im a rank 1 killer myself with 7000 hours. I know how to play killer efficiently. I dont have problems to kill people but depending on the variables above it is simply not possible to play a decent and fun match for all without frustrating survivors.
And if you face 4 very good survivors on a map with good spawns, you wont have the chance to protect gens and kill survivors as killer without mobility.
You brought up another important point: Map layout.
Thanks for the input!
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Yes, if you face a decent group which knows how to loop efficiently, it will become pretty tough for killers. A coordinated group will finish gens no matter how you chase them.
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Kept this screenshot around to show...some ppl DO bring stuff like that. This was the morning before the BL change and these guys brought me to Haddonfield, lol.
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Except there are a wealth of killers who just straight up ignore looping for the most part. You can also just use bamboozle or spirit fury and looping nearly ceases to exist.
I can't remember the last time anyone was able to run me for any significant amount of time as a bamboozle brutal strength clown. Maybe someone humping the god windows on disturbed ward?
Half the time they get greedy for extra loops and punished by bamboozle incredibly hard, especially at loops like cow tree or the ironworks of misery god-window where they get boxed in by it.
You can quickly carve out some dead zones and just protect the gens near those. If you know you are going to be running into a 4 man on comms just use the killers best add-ons or a mori. Pretty simple.
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I also don't know why you care about survivors having fun. It's not your job to make it a fun game, it's your job to kill them. Maybe you are a nice person, but DBD is not a nice game.
You think some teabagging SWF with purple flashlights and OoO is out there for you to have fun?
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Needs streetwise.
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If one side consistently does not have fun they will stop playing this side or at all. So yes, I do care about the fun of the game. This does not mean I have to give people the hatch etc. All I meant was I do not want to play nor verse a camping/slugging/tunneling high tier killer with ebony mori most of the games.
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No matter how good you are as a killer, and no matter how often they nerf perks or something without fixing the bigger issue (map sizes, gen speeds) you'll always just be called a crying baby which is odd to me.
Survivors, most not all, know how unbalanced the game is for killers. They claim that its balanced and fair as it is. When they know its not. Huge maps, fast gen speeds, and certain killers lack of map pressure. They shouldn't have touched ruin or any type of slow down perk until they addressed the gen speed issue. Preferably fixing ruin and gen speed within the same patch so it'd be fair to both sides. "Oh just run "CI" its better anyway" if its better anyway and we all ruin CI guess what? it'll be nerfed because its "over used and survivors aren't have any fun with it" Which brings up another point for me, why are killers calling other killer mains babies or whatever because they run ruin?
"Oh i'm better than you because i don't use ruin its worthless anyway" okay, want a cookie? Some killers need it more than others. "I use Nurse or Hillbilly so ruin is useless" tell that to clown or trapper players.
I've been very vocal lately and ima keep being vocal about it cuz the devs treatment to make the game fair is ridiculous. Survivors get nerfed but killers get butchered and still have no response on gen speed or unfair map layouts. I don't hate the new ruin, to me the new ruin's only flaw is the totem. Get rid of the hex perk and make it just a regular perk.
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Thank you for your input. I can totally understadnd why you feel this way. All those things you mentioned are responsible for a balance issue. I see it the same.
But in my opinion survivors and killers do have problems due to all those issues mentioned above. The devs really have to work on multiple things. Working on Ruin first might be a bad decision (at least thats what I think) but I am pretty sure they will see the consequences.
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I wouldn't call it a discussion when it's the developers outright lying about why it was gutted
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This post has been opened with the intention to point out balance difficulties and to start a civil discussion about changes and possible solutions. Accusing the developers for "lying" does not contribute to the discussion.
You are welcome to suggest a solution.
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The only viable solution is to scrap this gut and go to the drawing board
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The quickest solution to gen speeds is pressure. The devs obviously want killers to exert more pressure because they changed ruin from free pressure to earned pressure.
Problem is most maps are way to big and have to many super safe loops, including god windows. Until they shrink maps to a reasonable size and work on some of these loops, the game will be extremely survivor sided.
They keep balancing for newer players, because they just want to increase their player base. But balance should always be done for the top players in a game (red ranks). Otherwose just throw ranks out the window, why have them?
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Thank you for your input.
Thats why I mentioned map pressure as an issue aswell. I totally agree with your statement, most killers do not have the tools to put pressure on (all) survivors. I hope they find another solution, I kinda like the map size, I do not want to play on very small maps, this would kill stealth gameplay.
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Looks like a really good analysis honestly. This game does have many problems that affect each other.
I am convinced that a second objective, as long as maps don't get reworked fast enough, would be a good alternative solution for this game, but it can't come without a nerf to camping and tunneling, as well as buffs to solo survivors.
Just a shame many people on these forums seem to be too immature to try and see the game and it's balancing from both sides and to argue about balance changes without becoming offensive.
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The maps dont have to he super small. The new springwood maps are around 140m, and you can definitely stealth on them. But there are several maps like rotten fields and mothers dwelling that are almost 180m.
If we could shrink them all to springwood size, they would be much more manageable without being to small.
Currently some of the big maps can take almost 40 seconds to walk across, which is half a gen just to patrol. Add in god windows and tons of super unmindgameable loops like those on Thompson house and Fractured Cowshed and the killer doesn't have a chance.
When you can see the killer during the whole loop there is no mindgame so its just looping mindlessly. The fun part of the game is either moonwalking the survivor or joking the killer and sneaking away, which are taken away on these loops.
You can have a couple but these maps have multiple of these loops plus strong tiles like the shack and cow tree. By the time killer is done being dizzy gens are done.
I'm not saying these maps are unwinnable, but they need some changes. Size is a good start and could really make the game more intense and fun again. Let's face it, sitting on gens is boring, we all play the game for the interaction. Either losing the killer or stealthing and not being seen.
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I also think there is not enough interaction and variety, good points!
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Ruin is too strong if the totem is hiding in good place.
And On Platform "Switch", it is too strong because of unstable framerate.
But without ruin, gen speed is too fast.
most killers have to rely on ruin that has risk to be cleansed instantly.
I think ruin should change into perk without hex totem, and become week comparing present strength when the hex totem is not cleansed, and gen speed should become slow.
Dead by daylight is good game, but game balance and rank system is bad.
I suggest the following improvements
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As I mentioned in another post. One of the biggest contributors to killer frustration is perk balance. It's simply insane how many times you have to rewin your same match because survivors are running BT+DS+Deliverance+DH. That loadout alone can win someone a game without even factoring the map into the equation, which more often than not, will cause a chase to be insanely long and frustrating, especially when there isn't a counter for anything in that loadout other than just swinging and hoping you don't get rewarded with an I frame.
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Of course there is. Deliverance requires you to unhook someone before it can be used, so even if everyone has it, not everyone will be able to use it. It is also relatively worthless if you get hooked early, even if it is up. It is mainly for being able to escape the basement, do an endgame trade, or save yourself when there's only 2 survivors left.
The times I am able to make a crazy endgame deliverance play and the killer eats all of those perks at once is because they have not even hooked me the entire game.
Dead hard is relatively easy to counter unless they are dead harding for distance, just assume everyone has it unless you see them with another exhaustion perk and play around that.
You will only get hit with BT if you are camping. DS is overpowered though, I will agree on that. 60 seconds is way too long in a game that can last 4-5 minutes.
That build also brings no situational awareness or stealth, so you will be very reliant on your team to survive, and will also be practically unable to lose the killer during a chase.
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Deliverance requires a SINGLE unhook to proc, you get 8 chances, there's no reason you shouldn't be getting it to proc unless you're slugged.
I already assume people have DH, the problem is that it can literally take a chase, and extend it by easily another 30-60 seconds if they use it to get to a god loop.
Ah yes the ole, you must be camping. How about the fact that people straight up rush the hook and intentionally wedge themselves into it or loop you nearby just so BT procs?
I can't count the number of times someone's been BT'd out the gate because the gates are open and instead of leaving, they just get a free victory card. There's no counter to that.
While the build may rely on teammates, it can definitely cost a killer an entire match if one person brings it, let alone 4.
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If someone if trying to hook tech you, you can just stand there until the guy on the hook dies. They can't unhook if you don't swing; you don't need any more pressure because that's half the team doing nothing already. I have people try it on me all the time, and it usually costs them the game.
And what do you think you are doing at the endgame when you get hit with the BT? Desperately camping for your kill, which is what BT is meant to counter. You can still camp out a kill even if they have deliverance unless they are literally hooked right next to the exit gate, which you should try to avoid.
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Ye, lemme just avoid that when they get downed close to it, whew, what a big brain play. Also 2 people on gens is more than enough to crank it out within a single person's hook time, meaning you will actively depip and lose rank, making it, by default, a bad play.
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That's really your own fault for letting it get to late game in the first place. You can run powerful perks like NOED that will let you secure endgame kills almost always, if you find yourself getting there a lot of the time.
Also rank means nothing in this game, and I will take a 4k safety pip over a 2-3k pip.
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Could you link the debunk? I'm pretty sure Peanits himself agrees that gen times are not the problem.
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That's functionally incorrect. I suggest you give this a read:
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I don't even use ruin on half of the killers anymore, corrupt intervention is the way better perk in most cases.
Watch someone like this guy.
He has almost a 98% 3-4k rate with no ruin ever. Git gud.
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I also use CI, however if you actually read what I linked, you'd have a better mechanical understanding of the game, something you clearly sorely lack out of willful ignorance
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This is the "It was cold today lol" response to climate change but for Dead by Daylight of arguments
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And I play at rank 1 on both sides, and 4k the overwhelming majority of my killer games. You can probably 3-4k 95% of the time if you know what you are doing in this game. I have just linked you the proof.
A good killer can jump into a game and 4k with no perks, at rank 1. I've done it, I've seen it done. Ruin is just a crutch, and heavily reliant on RNG. It's as simple as that.
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And that's a result not of your personal skill, but largely of the fact that even a potato can make it to rank 1 on the current survivor ranking system, meaning chances are you aren't getting paired with actual red rankers
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Yet I have killed almost every single popular streamer that exists in the game. I probably have tombstoned monto like 15 times now, though I never see him anymore. I go up against the sweatiest 4 man SWFs that exist, and they block me because I stomp on them.
It's not because I know every single loop in the game, how to run them, have thousands of hours, know how to build a killer well, etc etc. It's just the ranking system.
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