Obviously the devs are not survivor biased. They love their game and does it make sense to any kind of game developer to just say ######### you to an important portion of the playerbase.
Just because survivors OR killers get a slight or meta changing buff/nerf does not mean the devs love one side and want to see the other sides pain.
Theres a ton more stuff i wanna say but i can't think off the top of my head
IM GONNA USE ALL MY EBONY MORIS AND ULTRARES BECAUSE I DISLIKED YOUR POST.
It means the devs have no idea about their own game and they just keep "balancing" the game with terrible decisions like hidding rank in next patch 'cause they can't fix matchmaking, a terrible doc rework and the ruin nerf.
The hiding rank thing was not pushed onto live. It was found on a leaked patch note list so honestly I'd just not bring that into an argument. I say give doc a week or two on live servers to see how he fairs against rank ones.
Ruin nerf sucks but it was needed. It wasn't done to nerf killers or cater to new players. It was done, from the way i see it, for game health. With ruin in the equation the devs couldn't make any changes at all to gens. Doesnt matter if it was a good one or not but they couldn't touch them because of the unpredictable variable called ruin. Ruin needed to be gone so the devs can see the bigger problems in a better sense. Of course gens go fast but how fast and why? Ruin clogged the gen data and now that it's gone we can easily see what needs fixing and how. Maybe toolboxes will be looked at now that ruin is gone because the devs can see just how efficient or inefficient they preform.
Thats just my take on ruin changes.
they have literally said they are survivor biased multiple times, including in the post where they explained their reasoning for the ruin and Doc nerfs.
So they've stated that they want to only balance around survivor fun and will screw over killer every chance they get? If not then you are just one of the many people who inflated this to the extremes.
Sure all of stuff recently been sucking for killers but by no means does it mean the devs are only in favor for survivors. Unless you got a quote or link to where i can find this definitive proof, i'mma think this way.
Just read the patch notes. They said all the new changes are so survivors are less "frustrated." It doesn't get more biased than that.
Yeah I've read them. And I've read more posts that they've made. The comments and posts I've read made me see more causes to the ruin change. One being gens and how it is difficult to monitor them. Ruin made a lot of stats fuzzy and hard to see so don't just read one post and take the wording at face value. Sure doc was annoying to play against and we all know how obvious they made that. But they also buffed him by taking away his stance change, on command madness tier ups, a hell of a lot easier to get his shocks and wack people, and he got chase music.
I am 100% certain we don't have all the pieces to fill the puzzle of this update but if you stop looking at the middle and start seeing the background you will ne able to see there was more thought than "he aint fun tio play as"
I agree with you. I think when you look at how long this game has been around, look at other games similar, it is easy to see bhvr is actually doing a really good job. I don't think they are survivor side and honestly I feel they are doing what they think is best for the game overall.
But I also get the frustration. We all play games to have fun. Part of that fun is a sense of accomplishment, winning. Sure you can't win them all. But this game has a major issue. Your skill as a killer only goes so far. At the end of the day no matter how good you are, if you go against optimal survivors you are finished.
Everyone with hours in this game knows this. The devs I'm certain know it. You can argue that it doesn't happen that often which is correct, but it happens. Some days it happens more than others. But the fact that you can sit back at the end of a match, a match that you played really well in, downed people fast, prioritized correctly etc and still get your ######### pushed in really sucks the fun out of playing that role.
I don't know the numbers but I have to think red rank killers along all platforms is a sizeable number of people. When the game has such a huge flaw like that, and a change to such a strong perk is made that very well looks like it is going to exaggerate the problem.... It is hard not to take it as a giant ######### you.
The devs literally said in their own notes that the 'reworks' were done for an easier experience for new players. How does it not get any more obvious than that? Also, these aren't slight nerfs and buffs, these are game changing. Ruin in high ranks was necessary because it gave the killer time to gain momentum before being gen rushed into oblivion. Also survivors have the game mechanics in their favor on purpose, that seems a bit biased don't you think? Oh and the list of survivor nerfs is nothing compared to killer nerfs. You see, survivors have only ever had their perks nerfed, that's it. Nothing about them or their objectives have been nerfed. With killers, however, not only have their perks been nerfed, but their powers, add-ons, and mechanics have also been nerfed as well. Do you remember Patch 1.9.2.? Oh better yet do you remember when the devs said sound issues for survivors was a priority and gave very little attention to killer sound issues? Remember when one of the devs told killers to play survivor and go play some civilization? Try watching Killer Is Fun to Play on Youtube, it actually shows how bad killers had it back then. So when the devs nerf the most useful perk for killers without any warning, of course killers are going to protest considering how they were treated back then. Things this year were finally getting better for killers and now the devs are just nefing and nerfing again. And this is a result of survivors complaining. Survivors say jump and the devs say how high? So guess what? Killers are going to also have a negative outlook on survivors too. And most survivors will always swear that they're the victims of flawed game mechanics (when they're literally in their favor) when killers have received the worst punishments. All the nerfs to killers were never necessary, they were just put into action because of whiny survivors because there's more survivors than killers which equals more money for the devs. So instead of seeing all the arguments and trying to just label them as nothing more than plain negativity, try to decipher why they're even happening in the first place.
God forbid the developers make the game appealing to new players! Why would we want to grow the game and make more money?! This is absurd! No, new players are just going to have to toughen up buttercups. We don't want to attract and keep new players, because that means less DbD for us, right?!
Seriously, the developers making changes that helps attract fresh blood to this game is the only way this game will continue forward. If you can't attract new players and keep them, you die as a game. So those trying to point to the devs wanting to make the game less frustrating and more attractive to new players as some form of proof of a conspiracy, grow up and take a business management class.
Even if toolboxes didnt exist gens would still be way too fast...most of the cast dont have the tools they need..if they want to fix the gen issue make the killers powerful enough to do it..bandaid fixes and a couple nerfs to tool boxes are not only ineffective but a more boring way to go about this
Then how about reducing the grind? I'm pretty sure it's one of the reason why new players leave, not because of just one perk LOL.
Currently, you either grind to hell or pay to unlock new characters and perks. You know how many DLCs this game has? Do you really want to pay so much of before even start playing the new game?
You are so dense. They doubled down on their reasoning in multiple threads. There is no bigger picture here. Sometimes people just do what they want. In this case it's tank their own game.
So explain to me this simple question.
When the devs care so much about new player experience, how come they do not treat problems that these players actually have? Like check steam reviews/metacritic and check why people drop this game.
Oh and it is not about new players in general but new survivor players.
And to be honest, they will not do them any good with that. Most people drop this game because they do not like being camped or tunneled out of the game. I guess you can see this one coming from a mile away but please do tell me what are killers gonna do if you increase the pace of the game? Right the ones that can will tunnel the hell out of the weakest link to generate a snowball effect and the others will camp and secure at least their one kill at all costs.
This will make for such a good experience for these new survivor players. I don't think that this helps new players at all.
Trust me, I know all about why new players quit the game. Most of my family and friends quit because they had no interest in feeding some kids fantasy by being camped and tunneled in every game. I know. That said, Ruin helped those killers camp and tunnel to extreme in the lower ranks. When new players can't find the totem, they can't hit great skill checks, they take forever getting a gen due to Ruin, and a LF is face camping them one by one, it is no fun. At red ranks ruin is questionably effective at best. Most of the time my totem is gone in 60 seconds like a bad Nicolas Cage movie. That, or the survivors bulldoze through it like it was not there due to hitting great skill checks with relative ease.
So it is debatable as to what, if any, impact it will have at red ranks with the change. At low ranks, new survivors will have a real shot at getting gens done while LF is drooling on his latest catch. Frankly, I like the new ruin. It punishes survivors who are too hesitant to jump on the gen when the killer's terror radius is nearby. Every second off that gen is another tick on the regression meter.
As for how it will help new killers, it will teach them to pressure the gens instead of rewarding them for staring at a hook. Ruin+NOED = Rank 17 win with little effort. New ruin will teach new killers that it is more effective to push the survivors off the gen in order to get them regressed. Staring at the latest catch means you get gen rushed into a 1k.
Not saying it is a perfect solution, just saying it is a step in the direction they want to go. I don't think it is doomsday. Just like the healing changes were not doomsday. Everyone thought all the survivors would quit because healing times were nerfed to the ground a bit over a year ago. Seems to me that the game kept moving forward.
I don't disagree. The grind is real. I know they added extra BP to survivors a while back. They also added in the Rift system that gives a lot of bp rewards. I think those are nice, but much more is needed.
The thing I'm seeing though is that they are taking small steps to address these issues. I'm not sure I'm sold on the steps they have taken though. This Ruin change may pay off. It may turn out to make matches too lopsided and they have to revert it, or try something else. I don't think we can fully say either one at this moment. What we can say is that we should let it ride and see what happens with it.
Wow. Great post.
This is why I basically said earlier too. Ruin just allows people to get away with lame playstyles, it buys them time to do it against rookies. I've seen it so much recently due to matchmaking deciding it wants to put me with all rank 12-16s recently.
Agreed about red ranks too. Against genuine red ranks Ruin would never be up more than a minute.
I think this is much healthier for the game overall and healthier for those players that relied on Ruin.
You know.. i have almost 500 in game hours.. still haven't unlocked all non-licensed killers (2 remains), let alone survivors.
Reduce the grind should be the top priority for devs if they want more new players. No one wants to grind for thousands of hours just to unlock all in-game characters.
And i haven't even mentioned the cosmetics.. 21k for 1 purple outfit which they keep releasing.. lol
Except you pay, which is kind of greedy for devs to be honest
"Your skill as a killer only goes so far. At the end of the day no matter how good you are, if you go against optimal survivors you are finished."
The very high skill-level Killers would probably disagree... for example the streamers like Fungoose, Ralph, or Tofu who regularly 4k without addons against top Survivors. Ralph is Huntress-only, but he almost never uses M1, either. Fungoose 4ks most of the time with any Killer, while simultaneously giving a brain dump so you can learn from him. Tofu can do full game design discussions while murdering his prey.
As the game is deeply asymmetric, it is true that we have to monitor performance of both sides at different skill levels very carefully. But at the moment, it seems unlikely that Killer skill input is capped too low.
The silver lining in Ruin's nerf is that gen speeds will finally be looked at, now that it will be more consistent.
I didn’t buy Oni for this reason. Its too much of a grind.
You need at least a million BP stored up, ideally 8k shards on top so you can bag another 600,000bp from the shrine of secrets. Then you hope you get the perks you want.
I own all other killers. Only bought GF because he was on sale and Stranger things for nancys perks. I was reluctant to buy this years dlc packs purely because of the grind.
I’ve owned the game for over a year but still don’t have all perks on all killers. It just takes forever. I’m getting very close and only recently have the killers finally reached a point where they have most of the perks I want. Though now the Ruin change has me scrambling to unlock Corrupt Intervention on a few others.
I bought all of the dlc on sale shortly after I bought the game over a year ago unaware of the grind I was entering. It’s ridiculous how long it takes to get a killer you bought access to all of the perks you paid for.
I won’t be buying Oni until all my other killers are complete, which is a shame as I would love blood echoes for Plague or Nemesis for Leatherface.
At least with survivor you only need all perks on one but I intend to get a few more perks on a couple more just for variety.
While you don’t NEED all perks on all killers its nice having them for the variety and synergy and trying new interesting builds. Also you might want a very specific perk but there’s no guarantee if it will come up in the bloodweb on the first page or on the very last bloodweb after you have unlocked every other perk.
so true
It just stages of denial. Everyone will eventually get to acceptance. Especially after some streamer says it's ok. 😂 I think the devs know they have an issue retaining new players. They probably believe top players will be fine no matter what (or at least should be.) New players are their main focus.
All of those streamers you mentioned are ones I watch and every one of them have said exactly what I have on stream. tofu actually said it several times just the other night but said it isn't much of any issue because it doesn't happen all that often. His exact words on stream the other night were "yes if you get maybe 3 or 4 optimal survivors you just take it and move onto the next match." These are people (I know fungoose anyway) with 8k hours in the game.
Again i'm not faulting anyone here. I can't even begin to understand how impossible it would be in this genre to fix this. I'm just pointing out that it is very disheartening and I understand the frustration.
Nah it is not about you not knowing it is about the devs not knowing or making up reasons as to why nerf ruin.
To the lower ranks issue, totem spawns are not crazy good hidden 200 iq spots, they are most of the time in spots that are easy to spot and that is why most killers complained about it.
So no that is a double standard, you expect new killer players to learn how to play and for the equivalent in a diffrent role it is not learn how to do x or how to do that, you find that annoying? guess we have to remove it from the game.
New killers will not learn how to play by being matched with the survivors they currently are, there are enough threads meanwhile how busted mm is. When they do revert and go back for the average it will be the same as it was, go make a smurf, family share, be rank 20 and bully some rank 15 killer who has no clue at all.
Ruin was used mostly by the red rank killers, further away from that it was used less probably due to people being new and not having the perk to begin with. 45% across all ranks v. 80% in red ranks. On to red ranks, it is quite easy pushing through gens as it is right now, ruin was a bandaid and denied bonus progression which will make most killers not viable at all as you can not waste 40 secs as that means one gen done. Honestly people shouldve learned to play against ruin just as everybody else cause it is not that hard.
New ruin is a piss and nothing else, totems will get cleansed sooner or later. You can hope that survivors are dumb enough to 3gen themselves but this ruin has no effect on good players at all especially considering it takes twice the time to regress. As soon as you see it there, you will push through or cleanse and probably pushing through (meanwhile this term became meaningless as that is just a normal gen you are doing) is always better since you eliminate every risk of triggering haunted grounds at least ruin gave incentive to do so. No idea who sees this as a thread or good. A gen done by 3 survivors takes 33sec without sc? Hf traveling the map in the meantime.
So we are in the same page. Just ignore people who don't understand since they just simply want to be toxic
You mean the people who are gifted kills due to playing the "right way" and sharing in the "right opinion"?
I'm not sure what you mean playing the right way. I can say tofu plays more than fair. He doesn't care about 4k. Fungoose on the other hand does. It is not a win for him if it is not a 4k. He is exceptional at the game. He knows where every crow spawns on every map and uses more information in 5 minutes than i can process in an hour. But he also views every tactic as fair game. He will camp, he will tunnel, he will slug to get his 4k. I do not want to play like that at all.
"Your skill as a killer only goes so far. At the end of the day no matter how good you are, if you go against optimal survivors you are finished."
The very high skill-level Killers would probably disagree... for example the streamers like Fungoose, Ralph, or Tofu who regularly 4k without addons against top Survivors
...I think they would disagree with you, though, since the sentence At the end of the day no matter how good you are, if you go against optimal survivors you are finished is absolutely true, even for them. That's assuming they are playing with all the killers, obviously, if we are talking about Spirit / Nurse then things change.
But, again, let's ask them, maybe starting with one of the top players that read the forum: @ScottJund ?
Killers on strike again soon?
Tofu was asked, on stream this week, "what tips can you give when you are going against a team of 3 or 4 optimal survivors?" His response "Honestly you just take it and move onto the next match." And I don't know if you watch tofu but dude is incredibly optimistic. It's part of why I love him, he does not complain really at all. He plays the game, he has fun, he is entertaining. So when he says something like that you feel pretty confident he is not just complaining and whining. He also went on to explain why every single suggestion people kept throwing at him would not fix the issue. He explained why it is such a hard issue to deal with to which I agree completely. Fungoose who while he will complain and is heavily killer biased, it is easy to see dude is freaking amazing at this game. His knowledge of absolutely everything in this game and how it works is mind blowing. He has touched on this as well. I'm not saying the devs are survivor sided because this is an issue and from someone who complains a lot I honestly think the devs are doing a great job. But this is an issue and it is frustrating whether like tofu says it is only around 10% of matches or not.
Mathieu Cote, director, literally told it's players that if you find Killer stressful - then play another game like Civilization. Followed it up with an apology on Steam. Then for 2 years there was no updates to killer to make it any less stressful.
Then if you look back at previous updates, especially the most recent one - it's all worded extremely from the survivor's perspective with very little details from Killers. The Doctor rework and ruin changes, have 0 viewpoints or balancing to make the game more fun for the Killer.
Where's his "Dead by Daylight should be a pleasant, exciting and rewarding experience for players" now? No where.
That's only because it's easy for potato's to reach red ranks with the current system. However they rarely ever beat a team of fully optimal survivor's on comms.
Lol I like the line "The very high skill-level Killers would probably disagree..."
Yeah, not going to lie, to be given an example of really good killers who would disagree with my statement only to have listened to 2 out of the 3 examples say the exact words I typed on their stream is a little disheartening lol.
I had not heard them say this on stream! So I will talk to them directly about this so I have a better understanding of how they say that works. Thanks.
It really depends on the map and the killer you are playing. If you're playing a big map with smart people that spread out and wait to the last second to save, you better be Nurse or Spirit or you're gonna have a bad time.
Again its like 1/100 games for me so its hardly a metric to balance things from, but yeah, a perfectly optimal group is usually going to win regardless of the killer's skill.
except they nerfed the best killers over the last patches and now nerfed ruin too
nice try op but look at the facts
I thing the big backlash is that they've just used perks as Band-Aids for core issues for so long, these issues have festered, and now they're just removing the bandage with no word on if they'll even try to work on the wound anytime soon.
Let me ask you some questions?
What changes about a survivor's gameplay or mechnics when you nerf them?
What perk(s) do survivors have that is a core perk?
aside from the post in which they repeatedly state that the most important killer perk, Ruin, is being nerfed specifically for the fun of survivors, as well as the nerfs to Doc, check out this AMA the devs did on Reddit:
the relevant statement from Peanits:
"As for balancing around SWF, this is also a bit tricky. If we were to balance solely around incredibly coordinated teams, we would be leaving solo players at a huge disadvantage. Our goal is to gradually bring solo players up to the same level of info as a pre-made group and then balance killers to match. This way everyone's on a level playing field."
so there it is. They openly admit they Know SWF is unbalanced against killers, but their plan instead of dealing with that directly is to continue buffing solo survivors to be at the unbalanced level that they admit SWF already is, THEN killers get balanced. eventually.
They repeatedly admit their approach is survivor first.
To be more accurate, only Nurse, Spirit, Billy, and Huntress are consistent enough to handle a full team of decent survivors.
And once really good survivors enter the equation, there's not much killers can do aside from using overpowered add-ons and moris.
*looks at 2016 DbD gameplay*
ok boomer
You forget that the original DS came into the game before the Victory Cube, which survivor mains clamored and begged the devs to do. "The killers get too many bloodpoints and pip to easily compared to us" were the things that were pleaded to the devs. Then comes the Victory Cube, a system that changed how everyone looked at the game. It moved the game from more casual, to needing to take seriously. And in case you guys weren't around back then, this system affected one side initially. Killers. It didn't change anything about the survivor experience. It only put shackles on the Killers. So for those that didn't realize that or forgot, that for me was the eye opener that the devs are in fact biased for survivor mains.
Yeah guys, jeez, just play thousands of hours like people who actually play the game as a full time job, THEN you can compete against any dip on discord.
they already are. just got a facebook message from my cousin, who's barely ever played the game. he said this: "Tryed to play dead by daylight sat 15 min waiting on a game and then said ######### this game lol I try to play it and it don’t want me to play it I guess"
I tried a few survivor games this past week as well, even though I'm a killer main. it was jsut because I was curious about whether this fiasco had affected wait time yet. the general trend was that I was able to get around 2 games for every hour and a half of attempting. I sat on the couch playing Civ while I waited.
After watching Fungoose for a while now, I'm convinced he's actually two geese in a man suit. One plays DBD while the other explains what's happening. There is no other explanation for what this "man" is capable of.
