Average chase time instead of ranks
So Instead of having Rank 20 to 1, maybe you guys can make a stats for survivors who finish generators quickly as possible or survivors who get chased as long as possible VS killers who end chases as quickly as possible.
the point of this is to remove boosted rank 1 survivors who get downed in 10 seconds.
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actually it should just boil down to chase time
doing gens is brainless, if you can end chases quickly as a killer, you will do well, if you can prolong chases as survivor, you will also do well. Forcing survivors to learn how to play the game is a good thing, and this would do that. Then since objectives are roughly the same for both survivor and killer, the game can be attuned and balanced accordingly. This also forces survivors to play more actively instead of hiding everywhere and taking no hits for the team.
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Killers that run Nemesis would then tank your 'rank' as they would end chases somewhat quickly. Same with Legion, as they play a hit and run game.
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keep in mind, for this game to have true balance, the killer should be roughly 4 times as powerful as an individual survivor.
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excuse me? Since when nemesis make you down survivor quickly?
also when legion in feral frenzy the chase timer should pause.
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it would be inconsistent, what if the first person wastes all the pallets and their chase time was long because of it, the next survivors would be short because the resources are gone
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R20 pallet campers would be r1. Good players that know when to go down instead of creating a huge dead zone would be r20
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then the game would be over with since the first survivor chase was long enough to rush 4 gens. Other survivors who are not in a chase would get points for rushing objectives. Its not a waste, if you prolonged your chases.
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I agree with you. Good survivors know when it's better to go down and waste 10 seconds of the killers time getting a carried to the hook rather than create a deadzone in an important area or waste an important pallet. They could introduce an "efficiency" metric in which a survivor's chase skill becomes the proportion of how long they were in a chase compared to how many pallets they used.
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Nemesis ends chases shortly after the killer gets stunned, that's the reason why Bubbas use it to get PWYF stacks.
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Well, i disagree with long chases as the only determining vector.
I, for example. like to play the stealth game. Yes, i do unhook, but mostly safe, yes, i do gens, and only leave them when the killer is near, not when i hear a faint heartbeat, and if i get in a chase, i try to juke the killer, which i have done successfully 15 seconds into a chase.
There are lots of games where i dont even get hooked. Yet, by your metric, when i hide from a killer that searches the surroundings of my gen (and whom i keep occupied this way) while i actively hide from him, or if i end a chase fast, i would be a rank 20 survivor....
well, that would boost my survival rate, because i would get paired against less experienced killers, thus my strategy would work even better, but it doesnt seem exactly fair to me.
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This wouldn't really reflect skill due to the way chases work. Different killers are able to get hits (end chases) much easier than others, so certain killers would naturally rise to the top regardless of skill. Legion, for example, is able to close the gap really fast and get a hit counting as a won chase. Someone who uses Feral Frenzy and gets a hit with the Legion isn't necessarily better than someone who played Hillbilly and perfectly curved around a loop to get a down just because they got that hit sooner.
Or to use another example, Ghost Face might sneak up on someone and get a hit before they can even run, making the chase incredibly short. Or the Spirit might lose a chase as she phases, but get it back after ending her phase and immediately get a hit. Meanwhile other killers are going to be in chase much more consistently, like a Wraith or a Leatherface.
I wouldn't boil it down just to chase lengths, there's far too many variables in play for it to be reliable.
Post edited by Peanits on9 -
I feel like people also don't take into account farm games where survivors want the killer to chase them for as long as possible to fill up their Boldness score.
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So I am boosted if I die in 10sec when a 4head meg used all pallets at the half side of the map and I have nothing else to work with? Alright good to know lol
Jokes aside, stupid idea, there are to many different variables in the game to define a long or short chase.
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Be careful if you end chase to quickly you will lose if piping is your objectif specially if you are unlucky and the last survivor find the hatch
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One issue with average chase time is that it favors survivors who get into chases in the early-game, because survivor skill doesn't change the fact that the map will get less safe over time as the amount of pallets goes down. This can be amplified if the killer finds a particularly unskilled survivor who nontheless runs the killer for a long time by instadropping every pallet he comes across, making the chase last longer if there are a lot of pallets but depriving his teammates of said pallets, which results in the noob having a relatively high average chase time compared to his teammates.
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It's elegant in that it normalizes the objectives of both survivor and killer. Obviously the game isn't set up this way now and there would be a few problems with some killers, but that could be changed.
The problem here is that this game has been out what 3-4 years and behavior has yet to address this issue and all attempts have so far been failures. We can all agree that the current system is not good and basing skill off of many different factors for each side doesn't seem to be the right way to do things.
I would even say having a 50/50 weight on chase time and gens done for survivors, then chase time and survivors killed for killer. Ultimately the game boils down to those, you have to be chased by the killer and do gens in order to succeed as survivor, you have to chase survivors and kill them as killer to succeed as killer. I don't see how there would be too many variables in this and I think these two blanket statements entail the entirety of DBD. Of course you get people who suicide on hook, but that's generally not the norm, especially in higher tier play, so the ranking system will even itself out as killers and survivors who don't deserve high ranks will eventually plateau and not progress in ranking until they get better at chases / gens / kills.
Even considering killers like ghost face, you could determine the skill rating based off of the down instead of the initial hit. I would say that if you stalk someone to one hit down them and you do this consistently, you are a skilled ghost face killer. The only problem I can see here is with billy, maybe leatherface, but then again if you play well with these killers and down people quickly, you are being skilled. Again, here, killers can be altered and balanced, that's the elegance and beauty of this idea.
The pip system already in place could be used for this. You satisfy 25% of your objective and you get a black pip, 50% 1 pip, 100% 2 pips, or it could be harder than that and removing the black pip entirely could be an idea.
There is actually much more behavior could do balance-wise with this set up than the current set up and the hidden MMR system that is coming. You give killers and survivors simple objectives and you can alter the game based on those simple objectives, instead of having up to 4 different scoring events for each side. Are survivors getting their 50% pip off of gens all the time? better look into gen times. Are killers killing too many people? better look into pallets and windows or even perks.
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This is flawed. Placing the requirement to both be chased for half a match and do gens for half a match on individual survivors is not equal to a killer chasing and killing survivors. There are four survivors on a map, only one is in a chase at a time, and you don't get to select who gets into a chase in most instances. The killer makes that ultimate choice. In a 4-man team, people take on roles - someone more confident at chasing may wear a more flamboyant outfit and pursue the killer. Someone who plays more immersive may hide and work on generators while the killer is busy. Neither of these are poor strategies or game play. They all work to serve the greater good of the team in the end. At least that is the idea.
Additionally, maps and mechanics have been and are being changed to provide for substantially shorter chases.
I could also see this promoting killers to tunnel survivors. If a survivor is off-hooked and so you enter a "chase" with them and down them in a matter of seconds, this would skew the numbers and make for a very unenjoyable experience for survivors, as it already does.
This also eliminates killer's other objectives, which are meant to help provide balance in a match, for the aforementioned reason. The current PIP system requires killers to do more than just down survivors to gain rank. I know killers think they shouldn't have to engage in the other objectives, since "Killers gotta kill", but the point requirement to do so is incentive to not play like a dick, IMO. If you don't derive any rank by applying gen pressure and meeting other objectives, what is the incentive not to camp and tunnel to ensure short chases and kills?
It seems as though this would only serve to significantly swing the rank pendulum in the other direction and would require a significant investment of time/money to overhaul the game just to accommodate this adjustment, which if implemented into the current state of the game would be unbalanced.
For the base reason of 'variables' already stated, a multi-objective system seems most fair across the board, and we still don't know what the effects of the massive impending patch changes will look like when it comes to the ranking system. The job of survivors will become more difficult, dealing with less loop options, smaller maps, and slower gens...and theoretically the job of killers should become a bit easier for all the same reasons. I would be interested to see how this reflects in the ranking system.
I dont disagree it needs work. But I dont see this as the equitable change you claim it to be.
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Divide chase time with pallet used.
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This is exactly why we need a more simple system, there are too many variables to account for. If the killer isn't killing effectively, they will be downranked accordingly. If a survivor isn't surviving accordingly, they will be downranked. You don't seem to realize that the system will tend to solve the problems you mentioned as people play more games. This is how most games work with any sort of competitive matchmaking. Will it be too easy to kill? surely, until it is not, at higher ranks. What if it's too easy to kill at higher ranks you say? Easy, you make changes that increase survivor chase time. I have not said that this will be balanced right off the bat, in fact I alluded to the exact opposite, that it would be extremely unbalanced to start, but it's something concrete to work towards that will ultimately end in balance.
What do you mean about eliminating killer objectives? This makes either hitting or downing survivors a priority for the killer, which is basically the objective it is now with extra steps. This simplifies the killer objectives and achieves the ultimate goal anyway. All of the killer objectives now ultimately achieve the goal of downing players and then ultimately killing them. The problem here is that the killer can kill too efficiently and be punished for it. This shouldn't be the case ever, I don't even care what you have to say about balance in this respect, because a killer's priority is always to kill, which is diametrically opposed to the survivor's priority, which is to survive, and thus competition is born through these two struggles. Any deviation from this just ends in failure, as we have painfully seen.
Survivors started this game as extremely strong, so the issue with balance has tended towards making chases more fairer for the killer. You may think that I have the killer in mind with these changes, but really I have the health of the entire game in mind. Survivors will get bored and killers will get frustrated, you see this already in the gameplay currently. Simplifying objectives and then balancing the game around those objectives is the best course of action to make sure that the game is as fair as possible for both parties involved and a sense of competition is developed and nurtured.
Unfortuinately, you chose to play a PvP game. PvP games are filled with dicks. PvP games also need to be balanced accordingly. With a much simpler system in place, dicks can be pushed to lower ranks and people who play fair will be in higher ranks. This game is at an impasse, where it has to choose between being a casual party game and a real PvP game. Right now it's trying to be both, and that has resulted in the issues we have now. True PvP games enjoy massive profit as people invest significant amounts of time and money into them. Party games are mostly memes and you can make money with these games, but it takes an extraordinary amount of creativity to pull off. You can see why most games try to develop some sort of esport around them to increase longevity and profitability.
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The problem with this is it punishes stealthy playstyles. If I manage to completely evade the killer when they come to check on my gen I'd be considered a bad player under this system.
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there are some thoughts I had with this. One thought is that you take the same system put in place to reveal ghost face and apply it to the survivors, in that if the killer's vision is not centered on you and you are within their terror radius, you are gaining points.
The other issue I have with evasion and hiding gameplay is that it doesn't really help the game. As a survivor team, you need to all take downs and all take hits and hooks, that way you mitigate the stress of the other survivors who may be on death hook while you haven't been hooked even once. In essence, you all have to take risks in order to have the greatest chance of you all making it out alive.
I think the second point is more worth it towards the health of this game, because as a survivor, you have to team together with the other 3 survivors in order to survive the trial, it forces more team play rather than solo play. This also goes towards balancing SWF gameplay if the point of balance in the game is already the survivors coordinating and working together.
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In addition to Peanit's awesome answer, this statistic is very easy to manipulate to remain low rank while still getting 4k. :)
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But that makes you a bad player. Maybe not in such harsh terms. But players that are afraid to take chases and hide lead to the same people being in numerous chases. Which leads to them dying and the stealth players being left alone to get slaughtered.
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If I waste 20 seconds of the killers time while they search for me, how is that different than 20 seconds of chase? And in the event that I get caught that's that much more of their time I wasted. People that prefer stealth play aren't scared of chases. They just don't actively seek them.
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Which is easily fixed by making kills apart of the calculation for killer ranks, just not the ONLY calculation for killer ranking.
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It's a stat that is not directly related to skill for many, many reasons, one of which is that you have control over how long a chase is if you are better than your opponent. It's just not useful because it's so easy to cheat on it.
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But I don't get how the current system prevents abuse in this way either. In any ranking system with some type of economy as reward, you're going to have people abuse the ranking system to pick on the newer players to get easy money easy xp etc.
In competitive gaming, this is called seal clubbing. It's quite prevalent and it's quite unavoidable if you want your game to be skill based and balanced, because there will always be skilled players wanting to pick on unskilled players for easy points. You can help prevent this by increasing RNG in your game, but that has an inverse relation towards skill based gameplay and consequently, balance. If the skill of the player is the balance in the game, then a skilled player will always beat an unskilled player.
Balancing the game towards the lower ranks or lower skills makes veterans angry and bored. Balancing the game towards the higher skill and higher rank people means that the newbies get picked on, but there's a caveat to this, some of the newbies become skilled players and join the higher ranks of gameplay and continue to play the game. In the former, you have old, dedicated players quitting and in the latter you have newer players with no real loyalty other than the initial $10 they spent on the game quitting. The sunk cost fallacy is very profitable and very healthy for games in the long term. You see this trend especially in PvP games.
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As a Hag, it's possible to end a chase even before it begins. You might be on the right track, but solely basing it on chase time won't work.
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