After clown gets buffed pig will be the weakest killer in the game and I’m sad
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My recent Plague games in red ranks where exactly the opposite. They cleansed like crazy. The instance they were infected, running to a fountain, and then continuing to gen rush. It forced me to use fountains left and right to not loose them all at once (when the last fountain gets used). I gotta admit, I prefer them not cleansing at all to this, it just feels super stressful.
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Trapper is by no means the weakest. He really needs his bag addons to be playable, thats for sure, but his snowball potential is insane. Just with two unfortunate traps (for the survs), you can totally turn a sure loss in a win in seconds. He is only weak when he is played wrong, like every other killer. So if you face one that does not use his traps or places it in obvious places, then sure its ggez. But a competent one is really dangerous, and often totally underestimated. I've fallen to this so often myself, seeing it's "only" a trapper, so it should be an easy game. And then snap, ran into a trap and was picked up. Getting of the hook, not caring about traps, snap again. Likely dying on the hook then, bc the others were careless as well.
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I don't assume best-case scenario's to judge strength. I assume worst. And, as I said, at his worst Trapper is an m1 killer that wastes a bunch of time setting up only to have survivors not even try to go to any loops ever in existence because that's not actually a thing that they need to do in order to buy their team time.
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I'm a pig main and must ask, I believe the Pig is a fairly balanced killer but I do believe there are things about her that need to be tweaked. Do you think it's in the realm of possibility that within the next year we might see at the very minimum tweaks to the Pig's power or add-ons?
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Assuming the worst is not a great way to judge killer strength. What about Nurse then? At her worst, she is not blinking at all and chases the survs normally, which is totally futile bc she is slower then the survivors (only with bloodlust she might get one or two hits). Or let her blink, but miss each and every one.
By assuming the worst, Nurse is the weakest killer, followed by Myers (stuck in Tier 1, bc no stalks). Even Hag is weaker than trapper if you assume the worst, bc she is a 110% killer.
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At her worst Nurse can kill almost every survivor because teams, even in best-case scenario's, rarely work well enough to escape.
Perhaps I should clarify: I assume a very good player in a very bad scenario.
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With all due respect, but why are we blindly trusting statistics when it comes to Pig but when the Nurse gets mentioned, we look further for an explanation as to why this is the case? I'm not disagreeing with you on Nurse, but moreso critical of the idea that Pig doesn't need any help since that whole idea seems to be based of those very same statistics.
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Instead of whining, why not say what exactly you find weak about the pig? My personal only problem when playing the pig is that I do not understand why killers like Wraith and Ghostface are able to gain undetectable status at 115% movement speed while killers like pig in crouch move at 90% speed. It makes her stealth feel really outclassed compare to other stealth killers. I know people will say, just run monitor and whisper but like if half of your power is stealth, why would you be equipping perks that make you stealthy just so you can stealth as well as everyone else? Its like saying, run monitor & whispers on Ghostface, The power should already excel at stealth without needing perks in the first place. I think her crouch should just be 115% default. It would make her ambush charge also have way more application in loops.
Going by killrate stats and saying Pig 4th best killer in the game therefore needs no changes.... maybe not brightest way to go about rating killers.
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I don't really get some your decisions but I appreciate you wading into the snake pit to talk to us.
I don't think pig needs to be buffed massively + think she's underrated but could her add-ons and maybe trap rng be looked at at some point?
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I don’t think this is fair. The designers spending time posting on the forums isn’t actually part of their job, and they’re under no obligation to do it, especially when they get rude and dismissive responses to the stuff they post. If I worked on this game I would stay far away from the forums, personally. The way some people talk about the devs is honestly pretty gross - and I say this as someone who is critical of a lot of decisions they make, people aren’t critical of their decisions, they’re outright rude and insulting a lot of the time.
Why would anyone want to voluntarily spend their own free time contributing to a forum that talks about them and to them like they’re a moron?
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I want to point out, that it is not the Developers job to be here on the forums, that's why there's a Community Team - Almo is here in his free time and it is purely his choice, I also know that Janick is here reading feedback pretty often and whilst he might not always communicate he does read the feedback and has been doing so for the PTB feedback in particular.
It's not about being "scared" as you put it, but purely down to time constraints within their work and in a lot of the cases, unconstructive feedback...which is why we request that people when having a discussion keep their posts civil and actually discuss the topic instead of just ranting - threads like that are much more likely to be read rather than ones that rant. And whilst Developers might not always comment, the feedback is passed on to them , that's part of the Community Team's job.
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I am remembering this, you better record it when it happens
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Actually you can still leave with victor if she downs you near the exit... it's not that good.
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What does the data take into account? Just kills/escapes?
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#MakeLiverBase2021
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DEMO IS GOD TIER AND IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE YOU ARE BIG DUMB
SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP
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1. Plague is A tier at worst
2. Demogorgon is one of the most balanced killers in the game along with Legion
3. Wraith isn't that bad. He just suffers from a few things like his base stats being bad and his ability to be seen from far away. Besides being add on dependant he's not a bad killer.
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'most balanced killers in the game along with Legion'
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I don't have thousands of hours on Pig (400-500) but she doesn't need M&A, Enduring and Spirit Fury on to make her good
I run: Sloppy, Corrupt, BBQ and Whispers and do just fine
I also have a fair amount of head pops without Tampered Timer/Crate of gears/ Jigsaw Sketch
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I have no idea what you are talking about. I main Pig and Pig is one of the best killers. The traps alone give you so much extra time.
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What? He is. His add ons need work but they all have practical uses.
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I main Pig at red ranks and its rare for me to come against a team that I dont 3k or 4k.
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Anybody claiming Pig is the weakest killer needs to follow up by explaining why she has the fourth highest kill rates among red rank killers. Obviously kill rates aren’t the only way to measure effectiveness (e.g. Nurse has a low kill rate because of her extremely steep learning curve but has a very high potential) but they also aren’t meaningless in that a very high kill rate is difficult to rationalize if a killer is “weak”. What objective evidence do you actually have that Pig is the weakest killer because the circumstantial statistical evidence in the data contradicts that.
p.S. She was second highest on the All Ranks killer chart for reference. Which could indicate she is particularly strong against average opponents compared to higher rank opponents who are more situationally aware of stealth killers and possibly less intimidated by the traps.
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I don't think she's the weakest necessarily, but I think she is weak. As for kill rates, I can only speak from personal experience, but there are a LOT of bad Survivors out there. I shouldn't be able to 3-4k strings of matches as a Pig in red rank without ever needing to use the ambush.
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The last thing that was said about actively changing Pig was that they're looking at her add-ons but not her base kit.
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But the question is are you getting just as many 3-4k with her as with other killers? You presumably face just as many bad survivors with her as you do other killers. And note that the “bad survivor” factor is already kind of accounted for here because all the killers in the red rank chart have about a 10% higher kill rate across the board compared to the All Ranks chart and that’s due to the Red rank chart being all matches by red rank killers including those which had some “bad” lower rank survivor opponents. In other words all the killers in that chart are getting a stat boost from matches against bad survivors equally so it doesn’t explain why her kill rate is relatively higher than most of the other killers.
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The only character with a stronger stealth ability is GF imo.
Pig is a character with a lot of mind game potential. I play her part time and it's fun to play as and against her.
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I just think Pig's add-ons need fixing and her traps need to be more threatening (and remove the RNG aspect).
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I pretty much only play Pig, so I cannot answer that question properly. All I can say is that I have done fairly well in red ranks as a borderline M1 killer (again, very rarely using her ambush) using "Agitation + Iron Grasp + Mad Grit + Surge." That's a Killer that's not even really using the full kit they have available plus an extremely meme build.
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damn I wonder why no one played her on the BOTB tournament since she's apparently in the top third of killers. Seriously, your data is not a good thing to rely on blindly in terms of balance. Also, when will you show us the clown's hidden potential ?
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Right, and that’s great. My point is that none of that is evidence that Pig is weak, if anything it points to Pig being decent.
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Because the top two or three killers are perceived to be so much better than everybody else there’s no reason not to play one of those. That doesn’t say anything one way or another about Pig though.
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I really like the two kill rate charts you showed a few weeks ago (All Rank killers and Red Rank killers). Any chance you might get a chance to throw up a third chart which is Matches With Only Red Rank Players? I only ask because the Red Rank chart appears to be all matches with red rank killers but unfiltered for survivors which I suspect is why the kill rates are about 10% higher across the board (i.e. they’re inflated since many of those matches involve a red rank killer stomping a group that includes non-red rank survivors). It would be interesting to see if there’s statistical differences when you do the same bar chart but only including data from matches where all five players are red rank.
For example there could be killers who are particularly good against average survivors but have a relative weakness against stronger players, such as maybe stealth working better against players who are less situationally aware. In fact, looking at Pig in both charts, noticing that she drops from second to fourth place between all ranks and red ranks might indicate she’s weaker specifically in those higher rank matches, maybe, but her strong performance in average rank matches keeps her really high in the stats.
No worries if it’s too much work to get a third chart, figured it couldn’t hurt to ask though since you’re taking an interest in the thread. 🙂
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I already said that I can only rely on my personal experiences. I know it is not evidence, and I won't argue that it is. That said, I don't believe that said anecdotal experience points to Pig being decent. I believe it points to the prevalence of bad Survivors.
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play rate way better indicator for what people think about said killer. Remember how people used to think Billy was strong? In 2019, he had pick-rate of nearly 8.5%. In 2020, His pickrate is 3.48%, So he has lost more than roughly 66% of his player-base that used to play him regularly. Pig has about the same play-rate as Billy now. Heck to put into perceptive, many people say Trapper and Wraith are weak killers(which they are) but they rather play Trapper and Wraith than Billy in red ranks. Freddy and Spirit also used to have insane playrates, until their add-on got sledgehammered and weakened. Bubba who got reworked doesn't have a much different kill-rate than what he had before but he has a better play-rate now than he did a year ago. Over 1000 games, Pig probably just gets some head-pop that inflate her kill statistic but her kit on paper is quite bad and really only beats bad survivors who play against her stealth/box gameplay poorly. Kill rate is mostly a flawed statistic because it only tells the result, not the entire story of the game for how the result came to be. A better statistic would be average hook count as you need hooks to get kills and it paints a better picture for how well the killer does on average matches.
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Fyi that chart is the older one, here’s the new one the devs showed off a few weeks ago (Pig is 3.32% pick rate among Red Rank killers).
As far as pick rates, like you said they’re an indicator of popularity. Of course popularity isn’t actually direct evidence of how good or bad a killer actually is, but hypothetically a popular killer would tend to be better than an unpopular one. (And I’m sure that’s a main reason why both kill rate and pick rate are shown in the charts.) Pig does have one of the lower pick rates, although honestly most of the pick rates are in roughly the 3-4% range and she’s right in that pack so she’s not “unpopular” as much as “not as popular as the most picked killers. Basically among licensed killers that you have to spend money on Pig, Ghost Face and Meyers are essentially equally popular. Pyramid Head, Leather Face and Freddy are more popular than those three and Demo is the least popular licensed killer.
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your missing my point. Strong killers are almost always popular regardless of their killrate. There is no such thing as "poor pickrate" strong killer. that stuff almost... never exists. if something is strong, it will get played a lot because people believe that they can win with said killer. I was using old chart to illustrate this aspect for how pickrates have way more meaning than kill rates with recent killer reworks. most of popular strong killers are between 5-6%. pigs is bottom of the barrel. I do not think that licensing plays that big of part in their pickrate. Freddy is licensed killer and he gets play a lot, Same for Bubba. When Bubba was worse, he was played less as seen in the previous chart. You can pretty much say that their popularity is mostly their strength. Strong killers are generally speaking... fun to play. Weak killers not so much and thus you will see them get played less.
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what is gonna the Clown's buff about?
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im gonna have to hit you with a fat disagree. Wraith is, and will be the worst killer in the game. Excluding double windstorm, he basically has nothing going for him, and what he does have going for him can be countered every which way. and double windstorm doesn't even fix his kit, it just gives him so much movement speed, that you don't even really play with stealth, you just abuse the movement speed to get from A to B, run and gun a few targets, or reach a pallet earlier.
Im not saying pig doesn't deserve some love, that her kit shouldn't be less rng. But wraith is so absuable atm, that you can really only run super niche builds on him in order to have fun/win. hell even freddys stealth is better then wraiths, because atleast he's hidden past 32m.
Pig absolutely needs some work. so does myers, legion and well clown. otherwise its just addon changes for killers and pretty much every killer is viable on most maps.
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What about demogorgon and wraith however? despite being very fun killers, they almost feel like a situation of, "well i could play this killer i enjoy, or i could play this killer that does everything this one does, but improved/different enough that i can win more and therefore have a higher dopamine hit from playing ma video games". (Demo-freddy) (wraith-ghostface/myers.)
Would changes down the line be considered for either of these two? i don't think i or the community wants full reworks, they seem in an ok place, but more so just quality of life changes to make them feel better to play, and less out of the players control.
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kill rates are not something good to go off of and on average killers should get 65% since when killers win they get 3-4 kills and when they lose they usually get 0-2 kills. that shifts the data above 50% and for killers that have low kill rates its because they take more skill and the bad players shift the data down.
Pig has a high kill rate because she can secure kills easier than any other killer since a survivor with a RBT can't escape through the gates so she can average 1-2 kills on a lost game way more often than other killers which is why she has a higher kill rate. she also has a addon combo that makes it so you will die if you don't get the RBT off in the first 3-4 boxes. you can also force a survivor to die from a RBT but it throws the game against good survivors assuming your not running her broken addon combo, it's like a more active version of camping that takes longer.
that doesn't mean pig is good it just means she has a broken addon combo and can secure at least 1 kill easier than other killers so her kill rate is naturally higher.
As for clown he is bad lol he is literally a deathslinger that can be played against safer than normal.
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she can secure kills easier with her RBT's while still being able to go after others after gates are powered. it just brings the average kills she gets closer to 1-2 from a lost game than 0-2. take a look at clowns stats he averages around 65% and is considered the worst in the game if you gave him just 1 kill more on lost games his kill rate will go up.
she also has the most broken addon combo in the game for killing survivors, extra box + tampered timer makes it so you have 25 seconds to get to and search a box or you fall behind on time. if you fail the first 3-4 boxes you dead or if you get slowed down by the pig herself. it's of course RNG but the chances of just 1 of your RBT's being unlucky for a survivor is just as high as it not being unlucky.
when i got my pig to p3 i played her a lot since she is actually fun and i noticed that it is incredibly easy to almost always secure 1 kill by saving a RBT for the last gen. I could just put that RBT on a survivor than hook them so they are on 2nd hook, go after someone else on 2nd hook to kill them, than find my RBT survivor and kill them. if that didn't happen i still usually got 1 kill for another reason but its not hard to kill 1 survivor as pig even on a lost game.
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I think Legion is the weakest and has the most boring power in the game.
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Um... What's YOUR criteria for good? I kept rank 1as old Freddy. He was good. If you are good than any killer can be "good." Your argument makes no sense. I even 4k the fabled set with old Freddy. Where all evidence in this game is anecdotal, it's gonna be hard convincing anyone of anything especially if you ignore the examples...
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Beg to differ.
With Rat Liver you are FASTER than survivors while you hold Of The Abyss, allowing for insane mindgames.
It's a must pick.
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I’m not disagreeing with you that popularity is correlated with effectiveness, I even said that’s why the pick rate is also included in these charts, Kill rate though is also correlated with effectiveness, probably even more than popularity since popularity is also influenced by availability, word of mouth and aesthetics. For example Huntress is the top pick by a fair margin, she’s played also twice as much as Freddy, and the degree to which her percentage is so much higher than everyone else is partly because she comes with the game so anyone who wants to play her can. Hag is one of the lowest pick rates even though she’s usually considered pretty strong on popular tier lists. And on the flip side Legion is the fifth most popular character because they’re fun to play, even though their kill rate is average and most tier lists put them at the bottom slot in effectiveness.
So while kill rate isn’t everything neither is pick rate. Just like you can’t call extremely popular killers “trash” without strong justification you likewise can’t just call killers with strong kill rates trash without strong justification.
All killers face “bad survivors” in equal numbers so that isn’t a good explanation for a high kill rate. What could be true is that Pig’s stealth and traps happen to be more effective than usual against average survivors with average situational awareness but that strong survivors with strong awareness are less susceptible to being ambushed by Undetectable killers and are less likely to make a mistake while under pressure from a trap. I could see that being a factor for why Pig’s relative kill rate is even higher on the All Ranks table than it is on the Red Ranks table - she may be extremely good against low and mid rank survivors but not so good against red rank survivors and its her high ability at the median of the spectrum that gives her a high average kill rate overall. To really verify that though I’d want to probably see a similar table which shows games with only red rank players included. If that table had an even lower relative kill rate for her than this one it would be additional evidence for that hypothesis.
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Kill rates are more important than you realize. It means on average, average Pigs beats average Survivors. And red ranks is where everyone has experience. You would think red ranks would be closer to 50% and the lower ranks having a higher killrate but it is the opposite. This tells me killer is a lot easier once you get a little experience. What everyone forgets is how the hatch actually increases the survival rate more than what it is, which means if the killrate is actually 75% for example, it means the chance of opening the gate is actually much less than 25% because the hatch has shifted the stats. On average, Freddy practically never has the door to open with him and Pig and Clown is not far behind him.
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And red ranks is where everyone has experience.
I cannot agree with this statement, based on what I have personally seen.
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Do you guys just want easy games? Pig is fine...
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