Level Creation Feedback / Changes to allow for more varied stages.

RetroRampage Member Posts: 3

Level creation is a mess right now, and almost all of the issues are caused by 2 things. The Harvester, and the fact that creators don't have to beat their own stages before uploading.

I'll start with the harvester. This thing needs to go. Either that, or it needs to fly instead of walk. We have double jumps and grappling hooks, but because of the requirement all stages have, giving the Harvester a clear path, nearly every single stage in the game can be completed by simply walking and not jumping a single time. Unless it's one of those maps that's basically a maze (a lot of which spawn-kill the harvester so you need to aimlessly wander them) the path is always obvious. The Harvester can't jump at all, so every single stage has a clear path. No exploration needed. No cool platforming challenges or grappling mechanics. Can't do ANY of this, because of that requirement.

This results in almost every single stage being either bland walks holding W, shooting a trap you can't run past every once and a while, or enemy/trap spam basically forcing you to fight through a giant arena. This game is entirely based on user-generated content, but that content is needlessly held back by arbitrary limitations.

And secondly, all stages should need to be completed by the uploader before they can post stages. I honestly can't believe this wasn't implemented in the game from the start. Players can make the hardest, nearly impossible enemy/trap spam arenas, and just throw them online for free and easy kills. No thought required, and no skill required on their end. It's resulting in so many stages online being amateurish troll stages.


  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 8,139
    edited April 17

    The Harvester ensures the level is beatable. It prevents builders blocking off the genmat. And it wouldn't take much to do this in a way the builder could still beat themselves either. Surround the genmat in a 4x4x4 cube of opaque corrosive blocks, two blocks deep, except for one which is only one block deep. They would know the weak point, but raiders would have 64 to get through by trial and error.

    Forcing builders to re-beat their level every single time they make a change to it would be tedious. Who would have time to raid other outposts when you spend all you time raiding your own?

    Also players have different skill levels. One player might be great at building elaborate artistic outposts, but suck at raiding, so they could never build a hard level

  • Entchenklein
    Entchenklein Member Posts: 35

    people who suggest outpost creators having to beat there own outpost havent given that idear a single thought

  • RetroRampage
    RetroRampage Member Posts: 3
    edited April 17

    The Harvester ensures a stage is beatable, yes, but ALSO limits the creativity of makers and destroys any potential for varies stages with platforming challenges. Because of the stupid harvester, every stage needs to be able to be completed without jumping a single time.

    It accomplishes the same thing as needing to beat your own stages, but needlessly limits level design, and allows for stages that are TECHNICALLY possible, but so hard that they are near impossible. There are ways to abuse this system, granted, just like in Mario Maker. Some may make impossible stages that have secret entrances for example. But it comes with the absolutely massive advantage of actually having varied stages, Mario Maker has proven that many people create stages BECAUSE ITS FUN. If you give creators the tools to let their imagination flow free, they basically create endless content for you.

    Currently, map creation is too limited for creators to do what they like, and it results in bland stages. Raiders like myself DO NOT WANT TO PLAY BLAND STAGES. The harvester quite literally hurts both kinds of players.

    Last night I played for 2 hours. I beat around 30 or so stages, all on brutal difficulty, and 25/30 of those stages were completed without me dying a single time, and me just rushing through the entire stage. Clearly, this is an issue. Part of it is on makers who are uncreative, yes. But a massive part of it is that these makers are limited in what they can do and forced to design around stupid limitations. So unless they find ways to work around it, they can only make bland stages.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 8,139

    Because of the stupid harvester, every stage needs to be able to be completed without jumping a single time.

    There's a lot of innovative things you can currently do with outpost pathing, even with the Harvester requirement. Plus there's always the possibility of them improving Harvester pathing in the future to give more leeway in where Harvey can go.

    For example, Harvey will path over second wave corrosive cubes. This allows you to delete his 'primary' path (providing it's the shorter one) and force players into a labyrinth they haven't yet traversed to escape with the genmat.