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cubanchris
cubanchris Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 26

Whoever requested to remove unlimited revives from coop. You are killing the game. It benefits the base builder to allow more deaths and its fun for the coop players so they can chill and have fun. Also learning through dying makes the game fun not dying once to a cheap kill and having to force quit. Terrible idea.


Tell them to fix rank, it is currently too grindy. Reduce it to 20k instead of 34k. Master rank is what really matters since it is a ranking list with active player listing feedback.


also do not separate rankings, it will provide incentive to single play instead of dual play. We don't want a community of only builders or only raiders. we want a healthy mix. Get those dorks out of their bases to touch some sand and get those meat heads to use their brain other than raids. A crappy base is just as important as a good base. You can't distinguish good without bad.


Also tell them to fix the ranking incentive. It shouldn't be based on deaths. No one will play hard bases and will only play normal. Which me as a base builder and raider actively does and sees. Make exp based on the bases k/d. Hard bases award more exp and dying less than average (better skill) awards more exp. Dying to a kill box doesn't mean you lack skill; it just meant you got impatient. Also, with a new reward system you can feel the need to play harder bases.


Tell them to fix the second wave cube see through glitch. that is completely cheap.

Tell them to fix the d/c bug that gives the base builder no prestige on death and the raider the chance to restart the base with no death penalty to rank.


Tell them to fix the synthite ratio. It's a burden to run 5 bases at once and almost impossible to buy a new one. Synthite is too rare. I propose allowing base related purchases or upkeep to be any currency not just synthite. Let the trap and guard upgrades be just synthite. Just let me buy new bases or prestige with multiple currencies. That will fix the problem.


Add your suggestions or tweaks. I will keep posting this in feedback, so we got a rolling list.

Comments

  • Darkyan
    Darkyan Member Posts: 122
    edited April 2023

    "Infinite revives are fun for coop"

    Must be nice being the coop leader...

    cuz I get the crumbles of a biscuit in the back as my teammate speed runs through outposts triggering 90% of the traps while I sit behind him and revive.

    Coop isn't fun as it is right now and, as subjective as "Fun" is, you can't tell me that it's genuinely entertaining at the same level for the both of you when outposts are so heavily balanced towards Solo objective and singular paths.

    Coop needs balancing, just as much as exploits needs fixing.

    "Learning through dying is fun" Yea. That's the entire game right there. You die, you retry. And in some case the outposts changes after death through mods.

    The rest is pretty correct tho.

    Rank sucks, rewards are totally unknown, apparently there's rewards?

    Exploits needs fixing and need communication from the devs.

    Syntite is fine, prestige needs a rework. Too costly, not rewarding and then base disappears forever, which creates a lump of bad copy-cat bases instead of having good spread out community builds.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 8,656

    cuz I get the crumbles of a biscuit in the back as my teammate speed runs through outposts triggering 90% of the traps while I sit behind him and revive.

    Sounds like a problem with your teammate.

    That said, a limit to revives before a forced reset, maybe 3 would be fine.

  • Dreamnomad
    Dreamnomad Member Posts: 3,562
    edited April 2023

    I'm in favor of unlimited revives. And I play primarily solo and generally focus on base building. Unlimited revives equals more kills. Why would you want your base to get less kills? It doesn't make sense. Limited revives means the players have to play more cleanly which is less kills. What is hard to understand about this?

    I had a normal difficulty mission that a pair of raiders showed up for today. They spent 47 mins and died collectively over 50 times! For reference, the mission they were attempting has a average kill rate of 6 per raid. They single handedly raised the average to 7. With limited revives there is no way that would have happened. Either they would have taken less risks or given up. Don't ruin a good thing people.

  • cubanchris
    cubanchris Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 26

    Yep, completely agree. someone told me they get less deaths on bases from coop and I was like what are you talking about lol. even if there are teams that anchor, there are teams like me, where we both run in at the same time. If you force those teams to play cautious then everyone will play cautious. when you don't punish death; you get more deaths. Plus, I am very patient. My friends will rage quit before I would and thinking of that would kill the game for me. With unlimited revives me and the homie can just revive and laugh the whole way through.

  • Darkyan
    Darkyan Member Posts: 122

    Sounds like a problem inherent to the game's core mecanic.

    About 90% of the coop replays I've watched share the exact same problem, someone triggers all the traps and dies to them, while his exploring teammate comes back to revive him, experiencing absolutely nothing of the thrill. And then they both die. And the exact same thing happens, the coop teammate tries to progress with no knowledges of the trap, but his friend, who knows the path, triggers everything again until he dies to RNG.

    We currently don't have any true coop mecanics, levers, doors, separate coop paths. All we have is infinite revives, which enforces that type of play style. The "I don't care about traps, my buddy here can revive me".

    Now, i imagine getting 70 kills to two stubborn guys can be very thrilling to some builders, but lets be real, you guys wouldn't get 70 kills if it wasn't for that broken playstyle. You didn't design those traps for 70 kills, this is just your monkey brain going wild on pretty numbers for KD ratio.

    This is just raw inflation. "Oh this outpost has 765 kills, must be very brutal" "Nope, just luckily had a lot of coop players killing themselves" The true average is 5 deaths.

  • cubanchris
    cubanchris Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 26

    lmfao. that seems more fun to me. seeing a group be silly and dying a bunch to dumb stuff. I think you value your base k/d more if you're listing inflation as a concern

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 8,656

    It's certainly more interesting than watching a sole raider spend 20 minutes slowly inching around every corner, disarming every trap before they activate.

  • cubanchris
    cubanchris Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 26

    Lmfao for real those 45 min playthroughs with no deaths. I just auto delete. Best playthroughs are the speedsters and coop buffoonery.

  • Darkyan
    Darkyan Member Posts: 122
    edited April 2023

    Did we read the same survey?

    Bases are supposed to give rank.

    Kills/accolades/exploits all of those matters.

    70 kills is a huge inflation to the rank of a base. You were complaining about ranks being broken and unfun/unfair, and here we are again ignoring more broken stuff that affect ranks.

    Hell, your very own OPENING THREAD is about making rank K/D based and about dying because you feel impatient in killboxes, are we trying to balance and give feedback or are we just throwing a ball to whatever pleases us at the moment because I pointed out those things using your thread as a base and you changed your mind and went "Yeah but that's boring ):"

    The replay feature, isn't necessarily meant for your sadistic viewing pleasure (Although that's a welcome bonus) it's to track your traps, and make better ones by using the raiders bad habits against them.

    Again. It sure is fun to watch someone die 10 time to the same trap by spending no efforts in even trying to dodge it, or even to watch as someone revives his best bud in front of an active flamethrower 4 time in a row (s/), doesn't make it healthy for the game with a ranking system based primarily on that exact same thing. (I'd love to see how many ranks they lost from that flamethrower revive tho.)

  • Dreamnomad
    Dreamnomad Member Posts: 3,562

    Who are these buzz kills arguing in favor of limited revives? Coop players surely aren't in favor of this. Why would they be? So that only leaves Base Builders. So I guess there are two category of base builders here. Those that like their bases to get lots of kills and those that want raiders to beat their base "fair". I would argue that unlimited revives are "fair". I would also argue that any artificial limit on deaths can be gamed. Raiders can just take turn being the risk taker. I would also argue that being a raider that has run out of revives forced to sit around and watch their buddy do the raid solo is no fun and only one raider getting the gen mat is also garbage and no fun.

  • Darkyan
    Darkyan Member Posts: 122
    edited April 2023

    Cumulative team deaths.

    So your deaths also counts for your teammate, and at the limit it just prompts a restart like any other solo raid.

    i think the amount was 2 to 5 revives before restart? something along those lines

    And there's two categories of coop raiders.

    The jump around and die silly

    And the sit behind and wait to revive.

    You've been on the forum, you saw both.

  • cubanchris
    cubanchris Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 26

    I brought up the k/d conversation in regards to people being selective in choosing what base they play. If you are master rank you know to not pick anything long or lengthy because the exp earned is too arduous to earn. Thats why no one is playing brutal right now or if you are like me. you pick anything that is less than 150 m and has low trap count. I like rank but I am not that sweaty. I don't need to be number one I just like being on the list. I also like to chill and have fun with friends. Standing by waiting for whoever played anchor to die is not fun. You get artificial deaths that way too if a player has to constantly reset after one or the other dies.


    I can see reduced revives but I would sooner give up less rank exp or a grenade slot before getting rid of unlimited. Unlimited with a friend is fun af lol. Being able to goof or both run the same base max speed is better than looking at load screens.

  • cubanchris
    cubanchris Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 26

    Dude, literally. I think its people that 1. don't play coop 2. are so sweaty they can't conceive of having fun without a leather whip and a ball gag. I love dark souls but not everyday. If dark souls had a chill mode and a hard mode so many more people would play. ######### I played elden ring with the coop mod and that ######### was fun af. I also played it regular, which was fun too. But with two different game styles you end up with a bigger audience. This game already started out rough with the player base. No need to limit it more.

  • MadMoeZel
    MadMoeZel Member Posts: 685

    funny thing, you always have infinite revives, solo or co-op. the difference is co-ops don't get the traps reset. so what you're really saying with "Whoever requested to remove unlimited revives from coop. You are killing the game." is 'i need the traps to not reset and you limit respawns will make me not want to play cause i can't beat the base from start to finish even with help'


    how many times are you actually getting revived in normal? and if you're needing this for brutal, maybe you aren't a brutal raider?


    "Tell them to fix rank, it is currently too grindy. Reduce it to 20k instead of 34k. Master rank is what really matters since it is a ranking list with active player listing feedback."


    so you want the rank climb to be faster. not everyone has the time or skill to dedicate to being a master raider, and the fact you want the threshold lower is rude and devalues the efforts every current master went through to get them. you want to be a master? perform like one.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 8,656

    "Performing like a master" = Speedruning the shortest, easiest Normal bases. Because that's how everyone who got to Master already did it.

  • MadMoeZel
    MadMoeZel Member Posts: 685
    edited April 2023

    i got mine running mostly brutals and refusing to ever leave a map.


    edit - and if thats how they did, then RAISING the rank requirement is the response, not lowering it.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 8,656

    Good for you, but its clear to anyone that has a Normal outpost from the replays, that rank grinders taking the easy safe route are the vast majority of those playing Normal.

    That means Master isn't a badge of honour for being high skilled, it's just a grind reward.

  • MadMoeZel
    MadMoeZel Member Posts: 685

    i'm sorry you feel that way, personally i enjoy my badge.

  • Nahasno
    Nahasno Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 47

    And it's much more fun to try to trap coop-raids than single raiders, because they have so many ways to harm each other unintentionaly and in ways i would never have thought of by playing my own base in tests. You will never get all raiders or a base design that kills every player only once, twice or whatever number you prefer consistently.

  • cubanchris
    cubanchris Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 26

    I am master rank. The competition starts when you hit master and you get ranked against other master ranks. Anything before is a arbitrary grind. I can't tell if you are being dense on purpose. Rank exp is also based on exp not on how hard the bases are. As a smart player, I use the boost so that I know how long a base is and how many traps there are. Every other master rank I know did this. It is the fastest way to grind. So, rank as it is rewarded right now isn't even indicative of skill, just time sink.


    The game came out with unlimited revives so by default the creators are the makers of the "Spirit of the game." As of right now coop is a more relaxed option. It does not need to be sweaty and it doesn't even make sense in a positive game mechanic way because they would be changing a game mode based on people that don't even coop. You can't be as sweaty as you are and have friends.

  • cubanchris
    cubanchris Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 26

    I think Madmoezel plays with a leather whip and ball gag. "If anyone isn't playing a game as their main job or hurting it isn't fun." lmfao.

    Imagine thinking adding an arbitrary grind is important to leaderboards. When master rank lists all players by number. I prefer master rank to be based on skill not who is the most jobless.

  • cubanchris
    cubanchris Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 26

    Completely agree. It is hilarious watching the one guy die to a trap then his partner die to the same thing. Hell, that happens to me all the time when I am playing with my bud. Then I am like "dude you were supposed to get that one"

  • zivshek
    zivshek Alpha Surveyor Posts: 7

    I agree, I don't know why people are even complaining about that, there aren't many people out there playing duo at all, just let them have fun, geez

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 8,656

    Raider 1 runs past Impaler that activates behind him, leaving him unscathed.

    Raider 2 runs into activated Impaler and dies.


    Or even better.

    Raider 1 runs round corner, aggros Warmonger, jumps back and shoots... Raider 2 right in the head as he passes by.

  • MadMoeZel
    MadMoeZel Member Posts: 685

    no i just don't think that being master is something that SHOULD be achievable for everyone. if the rumor is that people are getting to masters by running normals, then raising the required rank for it will disincentivize that behavior and encourage running harder content because of the faster rewards. i'm gonna give some arbitrary numbers here unrelated to anything. - IF it took 1000 normals to get a rank up, as oppposed to ~333 brutals. then that requirement got trippled to 3000 normals, or ~1000 brutals, would you be more inclined to run 2000 more normals? or ~666 more brutals? personally i prefer to spend as little time raiding as possible because i like building more. so i run brutals to get the job done as quickly as possible. and doing the brutals quickly, IS a demonstration of skill.

    leather whip and ballgag? no. i actually ENJOY content you consider difficult, because i don't find it nearly as bothersome. i like seeing what people make, and i like finding the way through or around it. i like seeing how i can prevent people from finding their way around mine.


    if you don't like the idea of dying, and trying again with more information. you picked the wrong game.

  • cubanchris
    cubanchris Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 26

    The game came with unlimited revives. so saying "if you don't like the idea of dying..." you are saying to change it based on some arbitrary reason in regards to the spirit of the game. Your argument is literally, I feel this way so it should be this way. It doesn't make sense to follow the niche on this stance on top of the fact that it limits the already dwindling player base.

  • MadMoeZel
    MadMoeZel Member Posts: 685

    it came with unlimited revives that also reset single shot traps. co-ops don't reset traps and still have unlimited revives. so they remove a mechanic of the game, by bringing in another player. that mechanic is traps resetting on death. what i want is for co-op to play like solo where if you want to respawn you can bring in a phoenix pod. that said, i also voted for a total of 5 team revives because i felt it was healthier.


    so no "Your argument is literally, I feel this way so it should be this way." is not my argument.

    "take all you can, and build anything to protect it"

    MYM - official reveal trailer


    "Make that path one of pain for raiders"

    MYM - tips and tricks trailer


    "When raiding you must also think like a builder, their diabolical minds are always 2 steps ahead, you must be 3, never trust the obvious, always assume the worst"

    MYM - tips and tricks trailer


    "To be one with death is to be one with the wasteland"

    MYM - tips and tricks trailer


    tip 6 - Embrace death

    "As a raider every death is a step forward sacrifice yourself to learn the location of traps and challenges, memorize the steps of an outpost's deadly dance."

    MYM tips and tricks trailer


    this is a deathrun game, if you don't understand that, i can't make you.

  • cubanchris
    cubanchris Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 26

    lol when you read the quotes and they don't mean anything to support "the developers shouldn't have put unlimited revives in coop." I don't see any quotes that say "traps should reset upon death" or even that coop is a feature for that matter. All these statements are so vague you can apply it to anything lmao.


    "take all you can, and build anything to protect it"

    -Stardew Valley


    lmfao. I think I might be losing brain cells. I can agree with limited revives. I prefer if it stayed the same though as an active coop player. Logistically it makes more sense so that there is less player down time.

  • MadMoeZel
    MadMoeZel Member Posts: 685

    i quoted MYM and you misquoted the same statement to stardew valley? i agree, you might be losing braincells.

    i gave you 5 quotes from MYM's official trailers that make it clear the builders job to to make the outpost a path of pain, Devious, a Deadly Dance. and saying that it's the raiders job to be a step ahead of the builder and outwit them, to EMBRACE DEATH and SACRIFICE YOURSELF to LEARN. look mate you're allowed to disagree with me, i have no intention of forcing my beliefs on anyone but i have the ability, and desire to voice my opinion that when a solo player has to deal with traps being reset on death unless they use a phoenix pod why should you be able to never reset traps and never have to use a phoenix pod and still do whatever the hell you want? you want to argue it's for more casual players, so are lower difficulties.

  • cubanchris
    cubanchris Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 26

    This is getting to be like speaking to a wall. The MYM and Stardew valley was a joke that the quotes are so vague they have no perspective on the coop issue or even the game for that matter.

    "As a raider every death is a step forward sacrifice yourself to learn the location of traps and challenges, memorize the steps of an outpost's deadly dance."

    You die in coop and learn from deaths this doesn't apply. What does this have to do with limited coop lives?

    "To be one with death is to be one with the wasteland"

    you die more in coop so it must mean this is a good thing. What does this have to do with limited coop lives?

    "When raiding you must also think like a builder, their diabolical minds are always 2 steps ahead, you must be 3, never trust the obvious, always assume the worst"

    you do this on every map regardless if it is coop. What does this have to do with limited coop lives?

    " [Builders] Make that path one of pain for raiders"

    This naturally happens when you play coop or any hard base for that matter. If anything you are asking for the game to be made harder not by the builder which this quote is referencing. What does this have to do with limited coop lives?

    "take all you can, and build anything to protect it"

    The point of coop like the single player game mode is to take the gen mat. What does this have to do with limited coop lives?


    On top of that, all these quotes exist for an advertisement of the game in its current state. A game that has unlimited coop lives, so by default the gameplay is what the developers wanted.

    I think you might be an energy vampire.